10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@micheldebruyn hit the nail right on the head. Allowing someone to use Agility for Melee is game breaking. Agility already has pretty much most of the combat skills attached to it already, as well as a huge number of non-combat skills. Adding Melee into the mix makes Agility too good.

I understand the concerns, but utilized in the right way, I don't think it would be a big problem. Particularly as it is only for certain weapons (as defined by the GM), like maybe a knife or a Katana-like sword or a short sword.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's why the ability to use use the lightsaber with a different Attribute from Brawn requires special talents.

Also I think that it makes no sense for the lightsaber to use Brawn, because it is a weightless weapon where damage is not contingent on how hard you swing it. If it were me, whatever specialization has Shien/Djem So or Vaapad would have a talent allowing you to use Brawn instead of Agility.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The specialization Force-Sensitive Outcast also includes the talent Renegade Form in the 15XP tier, which, like the six main lightsaber technique talents, allows you to choose any one other Attribute to use the the lightsaber skill in place of Brawn .

So whichever PC should spend a minimum of 95 xp *Erm, 65xp, I should have looked it up, I thought it was a Tier 5 talent* , and become a Force Sensitive Outcast. That's even worse than just going for Ataru Striker.

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I understand the concerns, but utilized in the right way, I don't think it would be a big problem. Particularly as it is only for certain weapons (as defined by the GM), like maybe a knife or a Katana-like sword or a short sword.

Also I think that it makes no sense for the lightsaber to use Brawn, because it is a weightless weapon where damage is not contingent on how hard you swing it. If it were me, whatever specialization has Shien/Djem So or Vaapad would have a talent allowing you to use Brawn instead of Agility.

So whichever PC should spend a minimum of 95 xp *Erm, 65xp, I should have looked it up, I thought it was a Tier 5 talent* , and become a Force Sensitive Outcast. That's even worse than just going for Ataru Striker.

Yes, it is a big problem; in fact it's a huge problem. If he or she is wielding a "katana" like sword. That's the Ancient Sword from F&D, which uses the Lightsaber skill, not Melee .

As for Lightsabers having no weight? While the blade doesn't have any actual mass, it does produce a gyroscopic effect which simulates mass. This is why when Vader throws his lightsaber at Luke in RotJ, the center of rotation is in the first third of the blade , a few inches above the guard, not in the middle of the grip (in reality it's because the prop used in filming had an actual physical rod for the blade, which does have mass). This gyroscopic effect is even discussed in SW Rebels when Kanan is teaching Sabine how to wield the Darksaber.

And, no the Renegade Form talent is only a tier 3 talent, costing only 15 XP; whereas all of the lightsaber technique talents in the six Form trees are Tier 2 talents, costing only 10 XP each.

IF you look at the Agility attribute, it has seven skills attached to it. Brawn only has five, three of which are Brawl , Melee and Lightsaber . The only Attribute which has more skills attached to it than Agility is Intellect . If you make Melee and Lightsaber into Agility based skills, then Agility would have nine skills attached to it, including all but one of the combat skills , and Brawn would only have three, only one of which would be a combat skill. You're gimping Brawn, and making Agility the "uber stat" for combat. That inherently breaks game balance.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it is a big problem; in fact it's a huge problem. If he or she is wielding a "katana" like sword. That's the Ancient Sword from F&D, which uses the Lightsaber skill, not Melee .

No, it's a weapon that looks like a Katana.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for Lightsabers having no weight? While the blade doesn't have any actual mass, it does produce a gyroscopic effect which simulates mass. This is why when Vader throws his lightsaber at Luke in RotJ, the center of rotation is in the first third of the blade , a few inches above the guard, not in the middle of the grip (in reality it's because the prop used in filming had an actual physical rod for the blade, which does have mass). This gyroscopic effect is even discussed in SW Rebels when Kanan is teaching Sabine how to wield the Darksaber.

You are missing the point, it takes strength to swing a broadsword, it does not take nearly as much strength to swing a lightsaber (and I'm not sure how much the "gyroscopic effect" would add to its "weight").

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, no the Renegade Form talent is only a tier 3 talent, costing only 15 XP; whereas all of the lightsaber technique talents in the six Form trees are Tier 2 talents, costing only 10 XP each.

Yeah, oops, I addressed that in the edit. The 65 xp was how much you'd have to spend to get that far.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF you look at the Agility attribute, it has seven skills attached to it. Brawn only has five, three of which are Brawl , Melee and Lightsaber . The only Attribute which has more skills attached to it than Agility is Intellect . If you make Melee and Lightsaber into Agility based skills, then Agility would have nine skills attached to it, including all but one of the combat skills , and Brawn would only have three, only one of which would be a combat skill. You're gimping Brawn, and making Agility the "uber stat" for combat. That inherently breaks game balance.

Yes, I agree, if you made Melee an Agility skill it would be unbalanced. But that is not what I'm suggesting, and Brawn is still used to calculate damage.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

No, it's a weapon that looks like a Katana.

Yes, and that would be the Ancient Sword. Another name for the "ancient Sword, was the Jedi Katana . They were what the Jedi used before the invention of the lightsaber.

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You are missing the point, it takes strength to swing a broadsword, it does not take nearly as much strength to swing a lightsaber (and I'm not sure how much the "gyroscopic effect" would add to its "weight").

Yes, it does. George Lucas himself has stated as much. Because of the gyroscopic effect of the blade, it is very difficult to control a lightsaber, requiring significant effort to do so. Thus, it requires a good amount of strength to wield a lightsaber.

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Yeah, oops, I addressed that in the edit. The 65 xp was how much you'd have to spend to get that far.

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Yes, I agree, if you made Melee an Agility skill it would be unbalanced. But that is not what I'm suggesting, and Brawn is still used to calculate damage.

Yes, you are. IF you're allowing someone to substitute Brawn with Agility when making a melee check, you are unbalancing the game. Period. IT doesn't matter if the weapon's base damage is still determined by Brawn. That would be the case anyway. The talents in question only affect the skill roll, not the base damage. A weapon's damage is determined primarily by its base damage, be that a static number, or " Brawn +", plus how many uncancelled successes you get on your dice. That is determined by what you roll on your dice, and therefore what attribute you use when rolling the skill check. Someone with a high Agility is likely going to get a lot more additional successes (and/or Advantages/ Triumphs) under your rule when using his weapon than if he or she was using the lower Brawn stat, and therefore, do a lot more damage, and greater chances of inflicting a critical injury. That's why it's unbalancing. That's why using a different attribute other than Brawn requires a specialized talent and is restricted to the Lightsaber skill. It's for game balance.

If you want to use Agility with a sword, you need to take the Ataru Technique talent or the Renegade Form talent and wield the Ancient Sword, which uses the Lightsaber skill.

And for the record, the Ancient Sword does Brawn +2 damage, which is actually the same damage as a Vibro sword, or Cortosis Sword. In fact, almost all swords do Brawn +2 damage. The only one I know of that does more is the Beskad, which is Brawn +3. Even if you use the Araru technique to use Agility for the skill check, the Ancient Sword still does Brawn +2 damage, just like any other sword. So your idea that using Agility won't cause a problem because it's not affecting the damage roll doesn't work. It does cause a problem. It breaks the balance of the game.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, and that would be the Ancient Sword. Another name for the "ancient Sword, was the Jedi Katana . They were what the Jedi used before the invention of the lightsaber.

What I described is literally just a hunk of metal shaped like a Katana! What don't you understand? It isn't a stated thing, I'm just describing a style of sword.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it does. George Lucas himself has stated as much. Because of the gyroscopic effect of the blade, it is very difficult to control a lightsaber, requiring significant effort to do so. Thus, it requires a good amount of strength to wield a lightsaber.

Okay, I do not totally agree, but I certainly agree with you more now, though I still don't think it would require more than 2 Brawn to effectively wield.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If you want to use Agility with a sword, you need to take the Ataru Technique talent or the Renegade Form talent and wield the Ancient Sword, which uses the Lightsaber skill.

The suggestion related to getting the Ataru Technique talent was to switch it over to Melee, otherwise it's pointless.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, you are. IF you're allowing someone to substitute Brawn with Agility when making a melee check, you are unbalancing the game. Period.

Yes, it would unbalance the game if I was CHANGING Melee from Brawn to Agility, but I'm not. I'm ALLOWING CERTAIN characters to use Agility instead of Brawn with CERTAIN weapons and NOT in all circumstances.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Someone with a high Agility is likely going to get a lot more additional successes (and/or Advantages/ Triumphs) under your rule when using his weapon than if he or she was using the lower Brawn stat, and therefore, do a lot more damage, and greater chances of inflicting a critical injury. That's why it's unbalancing. That's why using a different attribute other than Brawn requires a specialized talent and is restricted to the Lightsaber skill. It's for game balance.

Yes, that is a good point, but the idea is that the dice pool demonstrates the skill of the character, while the base damage (Brawn + weapon damage [in this case +2]) represents the characters innate damaging ability. I do sort of agree with you about the balance, but I think that it is worth it to allow weaker characters to demonstrate a different fighting style and receive bonuses for such.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And for the record, the Ancient Sword does Brawn +2 damage, which is actually the same damage as a Vibro sword, or Cortosis Sword. In fact, almost all swords do Brawn +2 damage. The only one I know of that does more is the Beskad, which is Brawn +3. Even if you use the Araru technique to use Agility for the skill check, the Ancient Sword still does Brawn +2 damage, just like any other sword. So your idea that using Agility won't cause a problem because it's not affecting the damage roll doesn't work. It does cause a problem. It breaks the balance of the game.

I'm not sure what you mean, the trade off for a high Agility is a low Brawn (and if you have 3 Brawn you should probably just use Brawn), and that lowers your base damage.

One suggestion would be that you have to have a maximum of 2 Brawn and a Minimum of 4 Agility before you can use Agility, that way it lowers the chance of someone just taking it for the one die bonus (which can only happen if the GM lets it).

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, you can do that, but the mental picture connected with that stat is very different. Also, part of the reason for using Agility is so that the character's good Melee doesn't bleed over into other Brawn skills (Brawl [unless you want to use Agility to represent more precise martial arts], Athletics, and Resilience). A good example would be that this woman shouldn't be able to ARM WRESTLE A WOOKIEE. She might be able to judo throw a wookiee, or out duel a wookiee, but not out arm wrestle a wookiee.

I don't see why that would mean that you can't just use Agility, especially as the fighting style would require a lot of coordination, so it would make sense for the character to have a very good Coordination basic dice pool. A good example of the sort of character I'm considering is Martel from Full Metal Alchemist (if you've ever watched the show, she is the snake person). Another point is that having 5 Brawn adds 3 damage per attack, whereas you can represent the difference between her strength and her skill by having a low Brawn, but a high basic dice pool using Agility.

Watch cirque de soleil some time. They have high brawns and are agile.

And you personal hang up is all you. As i said have a 2 brawn and put more xp into the skill. That also represents high agility in a way. Let go of the names of things

5 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

What I described is literally just a hunk of metal shaped like a Katana! What don't you understand? It isn't a stated thing, I'm just describing a style of sword.

Which is exactly what the Ancient Sword is. The Ancient sword is a "hunk of metal shaped like a katana", with a sharp edge. That's all it is. The only mechanical difference between the Ancient sword and other swords in this game is the skill used to wield it. That's it. That and the special qualities each type of sword has. For instance the Ancient Sword provides Defensive +1 , whereas the Cortosis Sword (which uses Melee ) provides the Cortosis benefit.

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Okay, I do not totally agree, but I certainly agree with you more now, though I still don't think it would require more than 2 Brawn to effectively wield.

No weapon "requires" a specific brawn rating unless it has the Cumbersome quality. A good example of that type of sword would be the Beskad, which has Cumbersome 3 . That is the only sword I know of which requires a particular minimum Brawn rating to use effectively without some increasing the difficulty of attacks with that weapon.

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The suggestion related to getting the Ataru Technique talent was to switch it over to Melee, otherwise it's pointless.

No, it isn't. Not if you use the right weapon. The Ancient Sword is just that. It's a metal sword; it is a katana. It uses the lightsaber skill because it is the weapon used by the Jedi before the lightsaber was created, and it is from the fighting techniques originally used wielding this weapon that the lightsaber forms originated. That is why it uses the Lightasber skill instead of Melee .

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Yes, it would unbalance the game if I was CHANGING Melee from Brawn to Agility, but I'm not. I'm ALLOWING CERTAIN characters to use Agility instead of Brawn with CERTAIN weapons and NOT in all circumstances.

But you are changin Melee from Brawn to Agility. What you allow for one character, you must allow for all. To do otherwise just increases the unbalancing effect of the change because now you're playing favorites.

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Yes, that is a good point, but the idea is that the dice pool demonstrates the skill of the character, while the base damage (Brawn + weapon damage [in this case +2]) represents the characters innate damaging ability. I do sort of agree with you about the balance, but I think that it is worth it to allow weaker characters to demonstrate a different fighting style and receive bonuses for such.

Yes, and? That's how it works with RAW as well. IF you use the Ancienct Sword or Training Stick with one of the Liughtsaber technique talents, the weapons' base damages don't change, only the skill used to make the attack roll does. Both weapons use a base damage of Brawn + . That does not change if you use the Ataru Technique talent with either of them.

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I'm not sure what you mean, the trade off for a high Agility is a low Brawn (and if you have 3 Brawn you should probably just use Brawn), and that lowers your base damage.

And? That's true via RAW already. What you're proposing doesn't change that.

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One suggestion would be that you have to have a maximum of 2 Brawn and a Minimum of 4 Agility before you can use Agility, that way it lowers the chance of someone just taking it for the one die bonus (which can only happen if the GM lets it).

No. Now you're compounding the problem even more. There is a fundamental reason why it requires special talents in order to change the attribute used for any given skill check to a different attribute, and that is game balance . What you propose inherently disrupts that game balance, and if you play favorites, saying "he can do it, but you can't", even if the former lacks any special talents allowing it, that only compounds the issue, it doesn't mitigate it. What you propose breaks the game. Period. IF you want to use a "katana" with Agility, you need the Ancient Sword and the Ataru Technique talent (or Renegade Form talent). That is your only option.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Watch cirque de soleil some time. They have high brawns and are agile.

And you personal hang up is all you. As i said have a 2 brawn and put more xp into the skill. That also represents high agility in a way. Let go of the names of things

I'm not saying Brawn and Agility are mutually exclusive.

I get what you're saying, but I disagree and I don't think we are going to be able to reach an answer that we are both going to agree on because you think that no change should be made, while I am adamant that there should be the option with some/all/none of the limitations I listed above. This thread was not a "help with this particular scenario" question, it was an "advice for this house rule" question. That includes dissuasion, but you have not made a case much more than simply saying "it isn't in the game, so no go" which isn't very helpful since I have a small problem with the rules as written in this case.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Which is exactly what the Ancient Sword is. The Ancient sword is a "hunk of metal shaped like a katana", with a sharp edge. That's all it is. The only mechanical difference between the Ancient sword and other swords in this game is the skill used to wield it. That's it. That and the special qualities each type of sword has. For instance the Ancient Sword provides Defensive +1 , whereas the Cortosis Sword (which uses Melee ) provides the Cortosis benefit.

Okay, so I'm talking about a Vibrosword shaped like a katana, I'm NOT referring to anything in particular.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No weapon "requires" a specific brawn rating unless it has the Cumbersome quality. A good example of that type of sword would be the Beskad, which has Cumbersome 3 . That is the only sword I know of which requires a particular minimum Brawn rating to use effectively without some increasing the difficulty of attacks with that weapon.

Yeah, I was saying the Lightsaber doesn't have cumbersome, my point was that you can wield it without high Brawn.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it isn't. Not if you use the right weapon. The Ancient Sword is just that. It's a metal sword; it is a katana. It uses the lightsaber skill because it is the weapon used by the Jedi before the lightsaber was created, and it is from the fighting techniques originally used wielding this weapon that the lightsaber forms originated. That is why it uses the Lightasber skill instead of Melee .

Okay, but it isn't a Vibroblade. However, I think I now understand the disconnect, I was referring to a generic Vibroblade of a certain shape, but since what I described was already (sort of) a thing, you thought I was talking about that. Am I right?

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But you are changin Melee from Brawn to Agility. What you allow for one character, you must allow for all. To do otherwise just increases the unbalancing effect of the change because now you're playing favorites.

I don't see why you have to allow it for everyone. It isn't playing favorites, just like it isn't playing favorites to say that the Chadra-fan can fit through the vent, even though the Elom can't. It isn't a direct comparison, but close enough to make my point.

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, and? That's how it works with RAW as well. IF you use the Ancienct Sword or Training Stick with one of the Liughtsaber technique talents, the weapons' base damages don't change, only the skill used to make the attack roll does. Both weapons use a base damage of Brawn + . That does not change if you use the Ataru Technique talent with either of them.

Yes, and? That is how it works. I am not sure why we are discussing this, we don't seem to disagree.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And? That's true via RAW already. What you're proposing doesn't change that.

I know, I was stating that what I propose doesn't change that.

23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. Now you're compounding the problem even more. There is a fundamental reason why it requires special talents in order to change the attribute used for any given skill check to a different attribute, and that is game balance . What you propose inherently disrupts that game balance, and if you play favorites, saying "he can do it, but you can't", even if the former lacks any special talents allowing it, that only compounds the issue, it doesn't mitigate it. What you propose breaks the game. Period. IF you want to use a "katana" with Agility, you need the Ancient Sword and the Ataru Technique talent (or Renegade Form talent). That is your only option.

Something I just remembered is that one of the character concepts I had devised has an Agility much lower than his Brawn, but because of his fighting style, it made sense for him to use Agility for Melee, even though it is lower. That may seem odd, but he is using a lightweight dueling sword, so I figured that it didn't make sense for him to use his artificially inflated Brawn for dueling with a lightweight dueling sword, when, realistically, he would be somewhat inhibited by his lower Agility.

I think that we are simply stuck going in circles now, so I would refer you to my last comment. It isn't that I don't want to engage, but we really aren't getting anywhere. If you were to suggest changes to my proposed house rules rather than simply saying "if it's not in the book, don't do it" I would be willing to listen. I still have not entirely made up my mind regarding what the revised rules should be.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm not saying Brawn and Agility are mutually exclusive.

I get what you're saying, but I disagree and I don't think we are going to be able to reach an answer that we are both going to agree on because you think that no change should be made, while I am adamant that there should be the option with some/all/none of the limitations I listed above. This thread was not a "help with this particular scenario" question, it was an "advice for this house rule" question. That includes dissuasion, but you have not made a case much more than simply saying "it isn't in the game, so no go" which isn't very helpful since I have a small problem with the rules as written in this case.

I told how it is done. It is the realm of talents. Make a tree with a talent that does this along with thematically appropriate talents. That is how you do it.

4 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

No, it's a weapon that looks like a Katana.

You are missing the point, it takes strength to swing a broadsword, it does not take nearly as much strength to swing a lightsaber (and I'm not sure how much the "gyroscopic effect" would add to its "weight").

Yeah, oops, I addressed that in the edit. The 65 xp was how much you'd have to spend to get that far.

Yes, I agree, if you made Melee an Agility skill it would be unbalanced. But that is not what I'm suggesting, and Brawn is still used to calculate damage.

Spoken like someone who has zero melee combat experience and has no clue what they are talking about. You cannot finesse a weapon with out extra strength. You cant swing a sword for very long with out strength. EVERY lithe martial artist i have ever know has been pretty strong. I think your understanding of your concwpt is lacking

8 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Not necessarily, if the character just wants to be good at everything, the GM could say no, your character is a jack of all trades, master of none, so you can't do this particular special thing because it represents a character's style, and that doesn't really fit a character with 3 Brawn and 4 Agility (a likely stat for all-rounders with a superior Agility) because your character doesn't have the same physical barrier to overcome

So different house rules for different people?

So, this player who you have granted the power of Agility-melee... are you going to take that away again if this player later on starts becoming an ace pilot and crack shot and/or drops a few Dedications on Brawn?

16 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Okay, so I'm talking about a Vibrosword shaped like a katana, I'm NOT referring to anything in particular.

Yeah, I was saying the Lightsaber doesn't have cumbersome, my point was that you can wield it without high Brawn.

Okay, but it isn't a Vibroblade. However, I think I now understand the disconnect, I was referring to a generic Vibroblade of a certain shape, but since what I described was already (sort of) a thing, you thought I was talking about that. Am I right?

A vibrosword does no more damage than an Ancient Sword. They both do Brawn +2 damage. Both also have Defensive 1`. The difference between them is the Pierce 2 and Vicious 1 qualities that the Vibrosword has. And most swords don't have Cumbersome either. Only the Beskad does. This is because it is specifically established as a very heavy short sword.

Secondly, a Katana is not used with "finesse"; not in the same vein as a fencing foil, or rapier. A katana is about fast, hard strikes and slashes, not "swishy pokey". Watch some Kendo and Kenjutsu practitioners some time. Watch how they fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7nUFpznK7E

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Yes, and? That is how it works. I am not sure why we are discussing this, we don't seem to disagree.

I know, I was stating that what I propose doesn't change that.

Just because it doesn't change that does not make your proposed change balanced . That's the point I'm making.

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Something I just remembered is that one of the character concepts I had devised has an Agility much lower than his Brawn, but because of his fighting style, it made sense for him to use Agility for Melee, even though it is lower. That may seem odd, but he is using a lightweight dueling sword, so I figured that it didn't make sense for him to use his artificially inflated Brawn for dueling with a lightweight dueling sword, when, realistically, he would be somewhat inhibited by his lower Agility.

I think that we are simply stuck going in circles now, so I would refer you to my last comment. It isn't that I don't want to engage, but we really aren't getting anywhere. If you were to suggest changes to my proposed house rules rather than simply saying "if it's not in the book, don't do it" I would be willing to listen. I still have not entirely made up my mind regarding what the revised rules should be.

Have you ever actually wielded a sword? I have . I own two of them. It requires strength to use one, some require more strength than others, but they all require strength, even your "finesse" types like the rapier. It is not a light weapon, contrary to popular belief. It requires strength to swing the blade. It requires strength to cut through or pierce a target's body. It requires endurance to maintain a long fight. Thus, Brawn is vital for any melee combat.

Understand, we're not telling you to follow the RAW simply because it's RAW. We're telling you that your proposed house rule is fundamentally and inherently game breaking. And we are telling you why it is so. There is no way to implement your "house rule" without breaking the system.

The reason why Ataru uses Agility instead of Brawn is not because of how the practitioner swings his blade. Ataru uses Agility because of the added acrobatics that are part of the style. These include leaps, sommersaults, cartwheels, bouncing off of walls, and other feats of gymnastics. That is why Ataru is an agility based style. It's not because it is a "finesse" style. It's not a "finesse" style at all. It's a very aggressive, fast, power style, with a lot of leaps and flips, and little to no defense. It's all about offense . It also tires the user out quickly, and thus requires him to defeat his opponent as quickly as possible or withdraw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvrCUjgoyRE

Soresu is an Intellect based style because of it's almost exclusively defensive nature. It's all about tactics , and keeping your opponent at bay, tiring him out to the point where he can no longer fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1GJuyCT-PU

Makashi is a Presence based style because it relies on fancy flourishes, finesse, and "dramatics" to dazzle your opponent. This is the "finesse" style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk5J_PJDBzo

Shien is Cunning based because it's all about misdirection, and turning an opponent's attacks back upon him. It also favors power strikes to batter through an opponent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo01f10lIMA

Niman is Willpower based because it relies heavily on the use of the Force moreso than actual skill with a blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUSeuFRpX4o

None of these styles use their given attribute because of how it actually affects the wielding of the blade itself.

No matter what, you still need a good Brawn to actually wield the weapon and fight in melee combat. This is true of the lightsaber as well as any other melee weapon. It's not simply a matter of game mechanics, it's simple physics and biomechanics. It's how melee combat works.

Ranged weapons use Agility because it doesn't require strength to aim or pull a trigger. The only ranged weapons that really require strength to use is a bow . Shooting a gun requires hand-eye coordination and manual dexterity. Swinging a blade does not. Swinging a blade requires a certain level of strength.

13 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Spoken like someone who has zero melee combat experience and has no clue what they are talking about. You cannot finesse a weapon with out extra strength. You cant swing a sword for very long with out strength. EVERY lithe martial artist i have ever know has been pretty strong. I think your understanding of your concwpt is lacking

Exactly.

15 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Spoken like someone who has zero melee combat experience and has no clue what they are talking about. You cannot finesse a weapon with out extra strength. You cant swing a sword for very long with out strength. EVERY lithe martial artist i have ever know has been pretty strong. I think your understanding of your concwpt is lacking

I was not saying that you don't need strength to finesse a weapon, and I understand that you can't swing a sword for very long without strength.

And yes, the most experience I have with Melee combat is goofing off in the back yard dueling with a friend using 2/3 lbs. swords of a really dense foam when I was 10-12.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Secondly, a Katana is not used with "finesse"; not in the same vein as a fencing foil, or rapier. A katana is about fast, hard strikes and slashes, not "swishy pokey". Watch some Kendo and Kenjutsu practitioners some time. Watch how they fight. Just because it doesn't change that does not make your proposed change balanced . That's the point I'm making.

Have you ever actually wielded a sword? I have . I own two of them. It requires strength to use one, some require more strength than others, but they all require strength, even your "finesse" types like the rapier. It is not a light weapon, contrary to popular belief. It requires strength to swing the blade. It requires strength to cut through or pierce a target's body. It requires endurance to maintain a long fight. Thus, Brawn is vital for any melee combat.

Understand, we're not telling you to follow the RAW simply because it's RAW. We're telling you that your proposed house rule is fundamentally and inherently game breaking. And we are telling you why it is so. There is no way to implement your "house rule" without breaking the system.

The reason why Ataru uses Agility instead of Brawn is not because of how the practitioner swings his blade. Ataru uses Agility because of the added acrobatics that are part of the style. These include leaps, sommersaults, cartwheels, bouncing off of walls, and other feats of gymnastics. That is why Ataru is an agility based style. It's not because it is a "finesse" style. It's not a "finesse" style at all. It's a very aggressive, fast, power style, with a lot of leaps and flips, and little to no defense. It's all about offense . It also tires the user out quickly, and thus requires him to defeat his opponent as quickly as possible or withdraw.Soresu is an Intellect based style because of it's almost exclusively defensive nature. It's all about tactics , and keeping your opponent at bay, tiring him out to the point where he can no longer fight.

Makashi is a Presence based style because it relies on fancy flourishes, finesse, and "dramatics" to dazzle your opponent. This is the "finesse" style.

Shien is Cunning based because it's all about misdirection, and turning an opponent's attacks back upon him. It also favors power strikes to batter through an opponent.

Niman is Willpower based because it relies heavily on the use of the Force moreso than actual skill with a blade.

None of these styles use their given attribute because of how it actually affects the wielding of the blade itself.

No matter what, you still need a good Brawn to actually wield the weapon and fight in melee combat. This is true of the lightsaber as well as any other melee weapon. It's not simply a matter of game mechanics, it's simple physics and biomechanics. It's how melee combat works.

Ranged weapons use Agility because it doesn't require strength to aim or pull a trigger. The only ranged weapons that really require strength to use is a bow . Shooting a gun requires hand-eye coordination and manual dexterity. Swinging a blade does not. Swinging a blade requires a certain level of strength.

Okay, I'm not sure exactly what clicked, or if you've made these same points before and I missed it, or what, but I agree with you and Daeglan now. I do not have a lot of experience with Melee combat aside from basically just what I see in movies or animated shows (most recently Fullmetal Alchemist). I still differ with you in minor ways on various points, but it isn't worth contention.

In the 2 examples I gave, what would you suggest I do? (The 4+2[from Armor] Brawn, 3 Agility, dual wielding build, and the lithe female Marauder [2 Brawn, 4 Agility, 3 Cunning]) I am not open to changing the Characteristics for the first example, but I am for the second example. For the first example, I think that a base of 6g is too high, particularly because his strength is artificially augmented. For the second example, I think that a Brawn of 3 is the absolute max (at least until the character gets some ranks in Dedication). One proposal for the second example would be that she uses a Knife and a Sword, using Agility for the Knife because it is a lightweight, small (potentially precise) weapon, but use Brawn for the Sword.

One possible change could be that for dueling, you must use Brawn, but for simply attacking someone, you can use Agility under whatever limitations and prerequisites deemed acceptable. The argument for that would be that you need a certain amount of strength to swing the sword in the first place, but once you are able to swing the sword, you can use Agility to target your swings. One of the (largely unavoidable) issues in RPGs is that with many skills, two or more characteristics would apply (i.e. Melee=Brawn+Agility, Stealth=Agility+Cunning, etc.).

This particular question is aside from balance. Please give a proposal that ignores the concerns related to using Agility for too many skills. You can then also say why you don't think I should allow the change, but please give me a proposal first.

Also, if your suggestion is to put the Finesse talent (use Agility for Melee [light]) in a Talent tree, should I make a custom tree using Parry (which is technically a force talent, but that doesn't seem wholly necessary), Feral Strength, Finesse, etc. would you condone instead switching it out for the tier 3 (coordinates c3) Toughened in the Marauder tree? Further more, should I split Melee weapons into Melee (light) (knives and other light, one-handed weapons) and Melee (heavy) (swords, bludgeoning weapons, etc.) but keep Melee under one tree, or should I split Melee into two skills (for characters who intend to go heavily into Melee at least)?

10 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I was not saying that you don't need strength to finesse a weapon, and I understand that you can't swing a sword for very long without strength.

And yes, the most experience I have with Melee combat is goofing off in the back yard dueling with a friend using 2/3 lbs. swords of a really dense foam when I was 10-12.

Okay, I'm not sure exactly what clicked, or if you've made these same points before and I missed it, or what, but I agree with you and Daeglan now. I do not have a lot of experience with Melee combat aside from basically just what I see in movies or animated shows (most recently Fullmetal Alchemist). I still differ with you in minor ways on various points, but it isn't worth contention.

In the 2 examples I gave, what would you suggest I do? (The 4+2[from Armor] Brawn, 3 Agility, dual wielding build, and the lithe female Marauder [2 Brawn, 4 Agility, 3 Cunning]) I am not open to changing the Characteristics for the first example, but I am for the second example. For the first example, I think that a base of 6g is too high, particularly because his strength is artificially augmented. For the second example, I think that a Brawn of 3 is the absolute max (at least until the character gets some ranks in Dedication). One proposal for the second example would be that she uses a Knife and a Sword, using Agility for the Knife because it is a lightweight, small (potentially precise) weapon, but use Brawn for the Sword.

One possible change could be that for dueling, you must use Brawn, but for simply attacking someone, you can use Agility under whatever limitations and prerequisites deemed acceptable. The argument for that would be that you need a certain amount of strength to swing the sword in the first place, but once you are able to swing the sword, you can use Agility to target your swings. One of the (largely unavoidable) issues in RPGs is that with many skills, two or more characteristics would apply (i.e. Melee=Brawn+Agility, Stealth=Agility+Cunning, etc.).

This particular question is aside from balance. Please give a proposal that ignores the concerns related to using Agility for too many skills. You can then also say why you don't think I should allow the change, but please give me a proposal first.

Also, if your suggestion is to put the Finesse talent (use Agility for Melee [light]) in a Talent tree, should I make a custom tree using Parry (which is technically a force talent, but that doesn't seem wholly necessary), Feral Strength, Finesse, etc. would you condone instead switching it out for the tier 3 (coordinates c3) Toughened in the Marauder tree? Further more, should I split Melee weapons into Melee (light) (knives and other light, one-handed weapons) and Melee (heavy) (swords, bludgeoning weapons, etc.) but keep Melee under one tree, or should I split Melee into two skills (for characters who intend to go heavily into Melee at least)?

You dont use different skills for different weapon.

2 weapon fighting you use the worse stat and the worse skill. You build a pool with those skills and attribute. Then you increase the difficulty once. If you hit you d ok primary weapon damage. You can spend 2 adv to hit with your offhand weapon. So agility for the knife is not relevant. And as we have said a talent is how you would switch stat for a weapon.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You dont use different skills for different weapon.

2 weapon fighting you use the worse stat and the worse skill. You build a pool with those skills and attribute. Then you increase the difficulty once. If you hit you d ok primary weapon damage. You can spend 2 adv to hit with your offhand weapon. So agility for the knife is not relevant. And as we have said a talent is how you would switch stat for a weapon.

You misunderstood me, I was saying she uses a knife sometimes, and sometimes she uses a sword. She might duel wield sometimes, but that wasn't my question.

With a natural Brawn of 4, Strength is his greatest asset to begin with, maximize it. I'd give him two Beskads and have him go to town, with no special talents. Stock Melee all the way.

In the case of your second example I would go with Ataru Striker as a second spec (or even primary spec with Marauder as her second spec), and take the Ataru Technique talent as soon as possible, using an Ancient Sword as her weapon(s) of choice. You do need to be Force sensitive to use the Ataru Technique, however, because it is a Force Talent , as is Renegade Form , and such a character is likely to use a lot of acrobatics in her combat style, which is the hallmark of Ataru. Not only that but this also opens your character up to other useful talents such an acrobatic fighter would logically make use of, such as Hawkbat Swoop and Saber Swarm . You don't need a special house rule to create such a character, you just need the right specializations and talents.

No matter what, even with a knife , you need Brawn to hit with. That's because, once again, i t requires strength to deliver the force needed to inflict injury (just like throwing a punch), and to endure a protracted combat . It's not a person's dexterity or agility which creates the speed of a blow. It's his or her strength, and how fast his or her muscles "twitch". Speed becomes force, which becomes damage to your foe. That requires strength. Agility helps in reaction time for avoiding an incoming hit, but does nothing to making an attack. That requires strength to deliver physical force to a blow, or slash.

Not only that, but just because a "knife" is smaller than a sword, does not mean it's necessarily a "light" weapon. Watch Forged in Fire some time. Some of the knives they make on that competition, including Competition Choppers, Seaxes, Bowie Knives, etc, can be quite heavy, with stout blades. The Mandalorian Kal from Collapse of the Republic is also a relatively stout , heavy knife, doing as much damage as most swords (Brawn +2). So, just because the blade is short, does not make it an "agility weapon". It still requires brawn to wield effectively.

Your other option with both characters, if you don't want a Force sensitive, is simply use Brawn for both characters, as per RAW, and really put a lot of points into the appropriate weapon skill. This establishes mastery of technique compensating for relative lack of physical strength. Agility does not establish mastery of technique. Agility simply establishes how naturally dexterous, flexible, and nimble you are. That's not necessary for hand to hand combat unless you plan on doing a lot of acrobatics. All of the power and accuracy to your blows comes from your strength and technique , IE skill, neither of which come from raw Agility . For someone who needs to compensate for a relative lack of strength, potentially necessitating the use of lighter weapons, that character is going to compensate for his lack of physical power by mastering his skill and technique with the weapon. That's where Skill ranks come in, not a change in base attribute . So, with a weaker character, focus on increasing his or her skill with the weapon.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

With a natural Brawn of 4, Strength is his greatest asset to begin with, maximize it. I'd give him two Beskads and have him go to town, with no special talents. Stock Melee all the way.

Little bit of backstory for the character concept in question, he uses heirloom (but still practical and durable) vibroswords (with balanced hilt and Mono-Molecular edge) handed down through several generations. So I'm not going to give him Beskads, but should he use his natural Brawn of 4, or his enhanced Brawn of 6 for the Melee roll?

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

In the case of your second example I would go with Ataru Striker as a second spec (or even primary spec with Marauder as her second spec), and take the Ataru Technique talent as soon as possible, using an Ancient Sword as her weapon(s) of choice. You do need to be Force sensitive to use the Ataru Technique, however, because it is a Force Talent , as is Renegade Form , and such a character is likely to use a lot of acrobatics in her combat style, which is the hallmark of Ataru. Not only that but this also opens your character up to other useful talents such an acrobatic fighter would logically make use of, such as Hawkbat Swoop and Saber Swarm . You don't need a special house rule to create such a character, you just need the right specializations and talents.

So would you suggest that the character be a latent force sensitive with no knowledge of her force sensitivity (sort of like the Han Solo theories floating around)? Cause if I were to use this character, she wouldn't be a jedi, or go down that path (knowingly at any rate). I would probably just extend Ataru Technique to swords, because it isn't that much of a stretch considering that a certain sword uses Lightsaber. I haven't seen the specialization, but I would guess that it mostly focuses on force stuff with a little bit of active talents for lightsaber combat. Meaning that it might make more sense to make a custom tree or modify an existing one.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No matter what, even with a knife , you need Brawn to hit with. That's because, once again, i t requires strength to deliver the force needed to inflict injury (just like throwing a punch), and to endure a protracted combat . It's not a person's dexterity or agility which creates the speed of a blow. It's his or her strength, and how fast his or her muscles "twitch". Speed becomes force, which becomes damage to your foe. That requires strength. Agility helps in reaction time for avoiding an incoming hit, but does nothing to making an attack. That requires strength to deliver physical force to a blow, or slash.

Not only that, but just because a "knife" is smaller than a sword, does not mean it's necessarily a "light" weapon. Watch Forged in Fire some time. Some of the knives they make on that competition, including Competition Choppers, Seaxes, Bowie Knives, etc, can be quite heavy, with stout blades. The Mandalorian Kal from Collapse of the Republic is also a relatively stout , heavy knife, doing as much damage as most swords (Brawn +2). So, just because the blade is short, does not make it an "agility weapon". It still requires brawn to wield effectively.

Okay, that makes sense. It would depend on the knife though.

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Your other option with both characters, if you don't want a Force sensitive, is simply use Brawn for both characters, as per RAW, and really put a lot of points into the appropriate weapon skill. This establishes mastery of technique compensating for relative lack of physical strength. Agility does not establish mastery of technique. Agility simply establishes how naturally dexterous, flexible, and nimble you are. That's not necessary for hand to hand combat unless you plan on doing a lot of acrobatics. All of the power and accuracy to your blows comes from your strength and technique , IE skill, neither of which come from raw Agility . For someone who needs to compensate for a relative lack of strength, potentially necessitating the use of lighter weapons, that character is going to compensate for his lack of physical power by mastering his skill and technique with the weapon. That's where Skill ranks come in, not a change in base attribute . So, with a weaker character, focus on increasing his or her skill with the weapon.

Okay, I guess that makes sense

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Little bit of backstory for the character concept in question, he uses heirloom (but still practical and durable) vibroswords (with balanced hilt and Mono-Molecular edge) handed down through several generations. So I'm not going to give him Beskads, but should he use his natural Brawn of 4, or his enhanced Brawn of 6 for the Melee roll?

So would you suggest that the character be a latent force sensitive with no knowledge of her force sensitivity (sort of like the Han Solo theories floating around)? Cause if I were to use this character, she wouldn't be a jedi, or go down that path (knowingly at any rate). I would probably just extend Ataru Technique to swords, because it isn't that much of a stretch considering that a certain sword uses Lightsaber. I haven't seen the specialization, but I would guess that it mostly focuses on force stuff with a little bit of active talents for lightsaber combat. Meaning that it might make more sense to make a custom tree or modify an existing one.

Okay, that makes sense. It would depend on the knife though.

Yes, I'd play the female as a latent Force Sensitive. I wouldn't even take any Force powers, except, potentially Enhance .

As for your "behemoth", yes, he would use the enhanced Brawn from the armor.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, I'd play the female as a latent Force Sensitive. I wouldn't even take any Force powers, except, potentially Enhance .

As for your "behemoth", yes, he would use the enhanced Brawn from the armor.

Ermm... Okay. I have my misgivings about him using the full Brawn, but okay.

If she were to take a force power, it would be Enhance. One big reason why I don't want her to have a high Brawn, is because it is possible to represent her being very fit (Resilience, Athletics) without her starting with a high Brawn, and this character having more Brawn than a Wookiee seems... odd.

49 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Ermm... Okay. I have my misgivings about him using the full Brawn, but okay.

If she were to take a force power, it would be Enhance. One big reason why I don't want her to have a high Brawn, is because it is possible to represent her being very fit (Resilience, Athletics) without her starting with a high Brawn, and this character having more Brawn than a Wookiee seems... odd.

Hi bran isnt necessary. Just put points in melee skill. All those successes on a melee check are extra damage. And a likely 2P check.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Hi bran isnt necessary. Just put points in melee skill. All those successes on a melee check are extra damage. And a likely 2P check.

Yeah, okay.

P-47, you do what you want to.

I've got nothing to add (really) but there are some glaring issues with this particular rule set and the change that you're proposing may work better for your group.

And by way of rebuttal, swapping the base attribute for the melee based combat skills isn't that "broken" an issue. That principle didn't 'break' GURPS.

I still recommend that you try it out and see how this change works for your group. I'm still interested in getting feedback from you on how it goes.

32 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

P-47, you do what you want to.

I've got nothing to add (really) but there are some glaring issues with this particular rule set and the change that you're proposing may work better for your group.

And by way of rebuttal, swapping the base attribute for the melee based combat skills isn't that "broken" an issue. That principle didn't 'break' GURPS.

I still recommend that you try it out and see how this change works for your group. I'm still interested in getting feedback from you on how it goes.

Okay, once *shouts through email* MY PLAYERS SCHEDULES LINE UP I'll try it out and let you know. We're rather chill, so switching back and forth (and possibly refunding xp) and testing shouldn't really cause any problems. I will eventually post results. Maybe. Possibly in a year or two. It's sort of a hard thing to test though, because a lot of the data would come from the length of a campaign.

I'm guessing I'll probably test it with my initial suggestion of buying the ability once you get to rank three in Melee. If that doesn't work I may try switching individual talents around inside existing trees, I'm not sure. The issue is somewhat sketchy, and I'm not sure what the best solution is.

Also, what is GURPS?