So I am trying to work out the series of events leading to the clone wars. From What I can tell 10 years before Ep II Syfo Dyas Orders the Clone Army. Shortly after he is "Killed" Then Dooku brings in Jango?

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

So I am trying to work out the series of events leading to the clone wars. From What I can tell 10 years before Ep II Syfo Dyas Orders the Clone Army. Shortly after he is "Killed" Then Dooku brings in Jango?

I haven't really done much research outside of the movies and Clone Wars show, but the wife and I just re-watched Attack of the Clones last night. Obi-wan mentioned he thought Syfo Dias died before the clones were commissioned. If that's true, then either Syfo Dias faked his death or someone else used his name to do so.

54 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

I haven't really done much research outside of the movies and Clone Wars show, but the wife and I just re-watched Attack of the Clones last night. Obi-wan mentioned he thought Syfo Dias died before the clones were commissioned. If that's true, then either Syfo Dias faked his death or someone else used his name to do so.

The 5th season of the clone wars show has him in it

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The 5th season of the clone wars show has him in it

😎 There at several of the episodes I missed and since I don't recall that one... Probably in that list. Lol

Going back and rewatching them with the wife now since she's getting ready to start up a era campaign.

Im just trying to figure out what steps were taken that we are aware of and when.

It's all a bit vague, timeline-wise. I think this is intentional on the part of Lucasfilm, as having a vague timeline leaves more room for stories to be told, with less frequent contradictions like what happened all the time in Legends (which rigorously set specific dates for virtually every event).

That said, from what I've been able to piece together in all the new canon content:

1. Dooku and Sifo-Dyas train as Jedi, growing up together in the temple. Dooku eventually discovers his past, and the family he had before coming to the temple. Meanwhile, Sifo-Dyas begins having visions of a war to come, and grows increasingly erratic. Dooku's connection to his family and disgust over the corruption he sees in the Republic eventually lead to him abandoning the Jedi to rule his home world. During all of this, the friendship between Dooku and Sifo-Dyas still seems to last. (Don't want to say much more about that specific tale, as I strongly suggest getting the Dooku: Jedi Lost audiobook on Audible).

2. Senator Palpatine, acting behind the scenes, begins deliberately orchestrating tensions between different political and corporate parties throughout the galaxy, sewing the seeds of what will eventually boil over into the Clone Wars. Sometime after Dooku leaves the Jedi, but before the events of The Phantom Menace, Dooku meets Sidious. Sidious likely didn't take Dooku on as an apprentice until after Maul fell on Naboo, but he was probably still grooming Dooku to become the leader of the Separatist Forces even before the Naboo Crisis. Dooku, prior to Maul's defeat, does refer to Sidious as his "Master." I see this as somewhat along the lines of what Asajj Ventress' relationship was to Dooku. Until Maul fell, Dooku was probably just another tool being used by Sidious, only truly named as an apprentice after the previous apprentice failed.

3. Dooku tries rallying former Jedi companions to his side, such as his previous Padawan, Rael Averross (As we see in Master & Apprentice, another story I strongly recommend checking out), and likely Sifo-Dyas as well. This is when Sifo-Dyas commissioned the Clone Army (lying to the Kaminoans and claiming to have the backing of the Jedi Council and the Senate). This is also when Dooku found Jango Fett. From what we learn in the Age of Republic story centered on Jango Fett, the Kaminoans are the ones who paid the bounty hunter, not Dooku himself. Dooku appears to have merely recruited Jango. Around this same time, Sifo-Dyas died over the moon of Oba Diah, never informing the Jedi about the Clone Army he commissioned. Dooku and Sidious use the death of Sifo-Dyas to secretly assume control over the cloning project, likely bankrolling the project with Dooku's newfound wealth.

4. The Naboo Crisis happens. Maul is lost, the Trade Federation manages to slip out of any serious charges by the rest of the Republic, and Viceroy Nute Gunray is allowed to stay in power. Dooku becomes Sidious' true apprentice, if he wasn't already considered one, and the two continue sewing the seeds of discord throughout the galaxy. The Age of Republic story based around Dooku is a pretty solid example of his actions leading up to Attack of the Clones. Lastly, Dooku took on an assassin, Asajj.

5. The rest is pretty much Sidious and Dooku just building up tensions for the next ten years, and Dooku founding the Confederacy of Independent Systems, and Separatist Alliance. The confederacy is made up of mixed ideologies, with many different interests. Mainly, it's made up of worlds who have grown distrustful of the Republic, due to how corrupt it has become, and how poorly it has handled issues over the past decade. And also of corporations, using the impending war to garner vast amounts of wealth and political power. These corporations help to further spread the corruption within the Republic, fueling systems to join their cause.

The trickiest part of putting all this together is how spread out all the sources are. Some bits of info are in audio books, some in novels, some in comics, some in the Clone Wars TV show. The overall plot is slowly coming together, but a lot of these sources don't have a definitive place in the timeline. For example, the Age of Republic story about Jango just mentions his recruitment as "Some Time Ago." I've pieced together as much as I can recall without cracking open books and pulling up the audio book again. Hope this helps some!

14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The 5th season of the clone wars show has him in it

It's a flash back and/or an imposter. I think dooku masqueraded as sifo

11 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

It's a flash back and/or an imposter. I think dooku masqueraded as sifo

Aaahhhhh ok. So he got Pykes to get him then took his place. What episode is it in?

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Aaahhhhh ok. So he got Pykes to get him then took his place. What episode is it in?

6/10 I think

On 7/31/2019 at 8:35 PM, Underachiever599 said:

(Don't want to say much more about that specific tale, as I strongly suggest getting the Dooku: Jedi Lost audiobook on Audible).

Just wanted to mention that they've announced a hard copy of it to be released before too long.

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Just wanted to mention that they've announced a hard copy of it to be released before too long.

And I am beyond excited! I tend to share my books with all of my friends so they can stay up to date on Star Wars content, but I can't do that with audiobooks (I only have audible on my phone).

I believe Sifo did commission the clone army himself, but then was shot down and killed shortly after that. Palpatine had found out about the clone army, got Sifo assigned to a mission to deal with the Pyke syndicate and then Dooku hired the Pyke's to kill Sifo. In the grand scheme of things is was likely days or weeks between the ordering of the army and Sifo's death. The clone army had been comissioned, but no specifics had been determined. This is when Palpatine and Dooku stepped in. They hired Jango to be the base of the genetic material and instituted the orders.

30 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

I believe Sifo did commission the clone army himself, but then was shot down and killed shortly after that. Palpatine had found out about the clone army, got Sifo assigned to a mission to deal with the Pyke syndicate and then Dooku hired the Pyke's to kill Sifo. In the grand scheme of things is was likely days or weeks between the ordering of the army and Sifo's death. The clone army had been comissioned, but no specifics had been determined. This is when Palpatine and Dooku stepped in. They hired Jango to be the base of the genetic material and instituted the orders.

And Kaminoans cant tell humans apart. So it was easy to step in. Dooku had not left the Order yet so he could delete Kamino from the archives. Palps kept the funds flowing. And Dooku apperantly also implemented the chips.

Star Wars: Bounty Hunter ends with

and that takes place in 32 BBY (same year as Naboo).

Question for the experts: how much did Jango Fett know of the plan?

Was he just asked to donate clone-quality genetic material for a huge sum of money, no questions asked?

Was he told that the clones would be trained for (glorious) war, and his Mandalorian background told him to say "Yes!"?

Was he told that the clones would be part of a plan (unspecified) to bring down the Jedi and the Republic?

Was he told that the clones would effectively be slaves, and that the bio-chip/brainwashing would turn them into meat-puppets when the big plan went into action (a.k.a., Order 66)?

Basically, how much did he know and how much did he care about the fate of the clones?

I do know that Jango and some other Mandalorians (picked by him) trained the early batches of clones, but I don't know if that's current canon.

And I'm not sure what the canon reason was for him being on Geonosis. Was he just part of a breadcrumb trail deliberately laid by Dooku and Sidious, to lead the Jedi to Kamino and the clones, then to Geonosis so that the CIS had an excuse for declaring war and using those conveniently built/stock-piled battle droids?

If so, why did he stick around once Kenobi had sent his information and been caught? Was it just to get a chance to shoot some Jedi?

Jango had some good reasons to hate the Jedi, due to Galidraan - but Dooku was part of that particular mess, and Jango seems to have no trouble with working for him in AotC.

Operational security suggests he knew the bare minimum to do his job. So probably nothing about the specifics of the big "kill all the Jedi" plan, but enough that he knew that he was working for Sith on a plan to kill loads of Jedi.

As for current canon, Jango Fett and Boba Fett aren't Mandalorians at all, and all of their interactions with actual Mandalorians didn't happen.

Jango Fett went to Geonosis probably for the same reason he shot his Clawdite partner with a dart that lead Obi-Wan to Kamino.

6 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Operational security suggests he knew the bare minimum to do his job. So probably nothing about the specifics of the big "kill all the Jedi" plan, but enough that he knew that he was working for Sith on a plan to kill loads of Jedi .

As for current canon, Jango Fett and Boba Fett aren't Mandalorians at all, and all of their interactions with actual Mandalorians didn't happen.

Jango Fett went to Geonosis probably for the same reason he shot his Clawdite partner with a dart that lead Obi-Wan to Kamino.

@Bellona for the purpose of my clone wars alt univ campaign that you're playing in, the bold parts are correct, but donating his DNA for the clone army would cause most other Mandalorians to disown him... which I believe is a non-contradictory interpretation of canon.

@EliasWindrider I was making no assumptions for the CW AU campaign - this was strictly a canon-related inquiry. Any Fett- or clone-related information in the campaign has yet to be revealed to us low-ranking Jedi.

As for current canon is trying to disconnect Jango Fett from Mandalore ... that does not please me (or make much sense). Why then were Jango and later Boba running (flying) around in beskar'gam (or whatever the traditional Mandalorian armour is called)?

Well, Boba Fett, who being a clone could never be Mandalorian, has it because of his dad.

3 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Operational security suggests he knew the bare minimum to do his job. So probably nothing about the specifics of the big "kill all the Jedi" plan, but enough that he knew that he was working for Sith on a plan to kill loads of Jedi.

As for current canon, Jango Fett and Boba Fett aren't Mandalorians at all, and all of their interactions with actual Mandalorians didn't happen.

Jango Fett went to Geonosis probably for the same reason he shot his Clawdite partner with a dart that lead Obi-Wan to Kamino.

3 hours ago, Bellona said:

@EliasWindrider I was making no assumptions for the CW AU campaign - this was strictly a canon-related inquiry. Any Fett- or clone-related information in the campaign has yet to be revealed to us low-ranking Jedi.

As for current canon is trying to disconnect Jango Fett from Mandalore ... that does not please me (or make much sense). Why then were Jango and later Boba running (flying) around in beskar'gam (or whatever the traditional Mandalorian armour is called)?

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Well, Boba Fett, who being a clone could never be Mandalorian, has it because of his dad.

To be clear, however, current canon does still establish Jango as having come from Concord Dawn, which is a Mandalorian colony world. Jango has never been a natural born Mando from Mandalore, rather, he was adopted into the culture as a child and was from a Mandalorian colony.

That opens another debate topic: what makes someone a Mandalorian - genetics, place of birth, the culture of one's upbringing, adoption?

Only those born on Mandalore, but not colonists whose families originally came from Mandalore?

Only those who share the currently ascendant Mandalorian culture, with everyone one else being denied/excluded? For example, apparently Satine's pacifism caused them to deny any connection to Jango Fett.

What about the non-human Taung origins (might not even be canon any more), which allowed for adoption of humans/others into the original Mandalorian culture IIRC?

My understanding had been that Jango's Mandalorian origins and the early clones' training by Jango and other Mandalorians had lead the clones to self-identify as Mandalorians, use Mandalorian as a second language, and adopt certain cultural aspects of traditional Mandalorian warrior society (honour concepts, death rituals, etc.).

All of which could have made Jango's pro-CIS/-Dooku actions on Geonosis look strange/embarassing to the GAR clones.

5 hours ago, Bellona said:

That opens another debate topic: what makes someone a Mandalorian - genetics, place of birth, the culture of one's upbringing, adoption?

Current canon seems to go with "being born into a Mandalorian clan, preferably one with a really big name". Which is how I thought it always went.

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What about the non-human Taung  origins...

See, I bought the Tales Of The Jedi comics these "Taung" supposedly first appeared in when they came out, and ran an entire Mandalorian campaign (in the old WEG D6 system) based on them. And not once did we ever get the impression that non-humans were ever involved, nor is a Taung species evenmentioned in them.

It looks like some later writer took a look at some of the more... bestial looking helmets those earlier Manadlorians wore and went, hey, those are some kind of alien.

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For example, apparently Satine's pacifism caused them to deny any connection to Jango Fett.

I think this is more a case of later Mandalorian leaders (who were basically Deathwatch neo-nazis) went "We don't care if Jango Fett was some random alien or the most decorated Mandalorian general ever. He created millions of of-brand Mandos, gave them to the Repubic or whatever they're calling themselves these days, who then went and conquered us with them. Jango Fett is not one of us, and if he weren't dead already we'd hunt him down and kill him."

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My understanding had been that Jango's Mandalorian origins and the early clones' training by Jango and other Mandalorians had lead the clones to self-identify as Mandalorians, use Mandalorian as a second language, and adopt certain cultural aspects of traditional Mandalorian warrior society (honour concepts, death rituals, etc.).

It is my understanding that this went away long before Disney even looked at Star Wars, that Lucas himself made an effort to make it go away, retconning it in the Clone Wars show.

Ah, Star Wars and the GFFA - where canon has many levels and it sometimes feels like retcons/canon changes happen daily!