I'll start by saying that while I have Descent with WoD and ToI expansions (I also have RtL), I've only played vanilla Descent and then about 3-4 times. I'd like to incorporate the expansions into future games (and possibly purchase AoD as well), but I keep reading that the expansions (espcially AoD and WoD) as well as the scenarios that they include make the game vastly lop-sided in favor of the overlord, which would make it not fun for the hero players. I'd like to hear suggestions on how to improve the balance back into the range of 50/50. Here's what I've come up with so far:

What are the problems:

1. Treachery cards make overlord more powerful without giving anything to the heroes to balance that

2. Depending on dungeon design, it is often too easy for the overlord to swarm the heroes with monsters

3. Dark relics (from AoD) basically force a hero to die or remain useless

4. Dark glyphs (also AoD) are too powerful (especially the one that doesn't work as a glyph)

Here are my proposed solutions:

1. Use the new Feat cards introduced in ToI to balance Treachery cards (is that enough?)

2. Use the spawning rules from RtL to prevent the overlord from spawning tons of monsters (maybe reset the marker for every new revealed area, and then 15 threat for the overlord to flip it otherwise)

3. Either don't use dark relics, or treat them as effect tokens and have the hero roll a power die each turn - surge means he can drop the relic. I like the 2nd version better, since the idea of dark relics (i.e. crappy items you can't drop) is a good one and reminds of Nethack

4. Don't use Dark glyphs

I'd like really like to hear from some experience Descent players whether these ideas are sufficient and what other suggestions there are to balance the game.

TheStranger said:

Play the game as is a few times with what you have.

Balance varies wildly between quests, and between different groups. Some people are simply bad at playing Descent (as heroes) and have trouble with it being too hard even on 'easy' quests. Others are much better and love the challenge of the 'harder' quests. It differs for each group.

In general, I feel that feats more than balance treachery and it comes down to how hard the individual quest is. The general play advantage is with the heroes IMO but some of the quest designs are pretty nasty.

I really wouldn't worry about it too much. The only problem with balance in WoD was simply that the dungeons were too long and some were brutal. Even so I'd like to try a couple of them again as the heroes have had a lot of bonuses since then.

1. Treachery cards make overlord more powerful without giving anything to the heroes to balance that

True, but against experienced players, they're were often the only way the Overlord has a chance in regular quests. You could also say that Feat cards make the heroes more powerful without giving anything to the heroes. Basically a well-used point of Treachery should equal one hero death and a well-used Feat card should save the hero once.

2. Depending on dungeon design, it is often too easy for the overlord to swarm the heroes with monsters

In most dungeons the heroes can avoid being swarmed just by keeping track of LoS and always moving forwards. There are some Dungeons where this is hard, especially WoD, mainly because of their length and it being too easy to screw up once and lose the game. However I'd still be interested in trying some of them again only this time using

a, Feat cards, and

b, The RtL Reinforcement marker (the spawning 'eyes')

I think this second addition will really make a difference when used in WoD quests.

3. Dark relics (from AoD) basically force a hero to die or remain useless

They are nasty. But nearly all of the Treachery Cards, especially those worth 2 Treachery and costing 20 threat, should equal a kill if used well. Also the addition of the Remove Curse card in WoD gets around the biggest issue with these which was that the Overlord could just give someone the Black Ring ad then refuse to kill them. At least they now have some way out.

4. Dark glyphs (also AoD) are too powerful (especially the one that doesn't work as a glyph)

Only in some situations which are entirely dungeon specific. They're not really that bad generally. Best house-rule to stop them being abused is to randomise their placement. Take all the glyphs for the dungeon at the start, mixing in ay Dark Glyphs purchased and just choose one randomly whenever one is called for in a new level.

inle_badger said:

That is an exceedingly optimistic estimate of feat effectiveness. About the best thing a feat card can do is provide a random chance of negating one overlord card or monster attack; even that should rarely be worth the entire life of a hero, and the typical feat is very much weaker than that. Getting 3 extra movement points, gaining the Reach ability on one attack, or discarding 4 threat is not going to be worth a hero death in anything approaching normal circumstances.

I think it's significantly too high for treachery, as well, unless you're looking at a best-case scenario. Generally, if spending a point of treachery wins you 1 conquest, I think you're doing pretty well. A sundered glyph is a guaranteed 2 conquest for 2 treachery, and likely has significant other benefits, but that's widely considered overpowered - but by your metric, it would need to result in the death of at least one hero (who would otherwise be at full health) in addition to the automatic 2 conquest just to be competitive with other options!

TheStranger said:

New options in a game like Descent have a way of throwing things off kilter. Suddenly one side is able to do something they never were before and it takes a couple of games to get things ironed out. It's true that WoD and AoD both boosted the OL's effectiveness, and ToI looks like it does more for the heroes than the OL imho, but that doesn't mean it unbalances the game. It just means you have to learn new boundaries. If you throw all the expansion in together having never played with any of them, things are going to be... interesting... for a while. Probably more than just a couple games due to the sheer volume of new content to work through, but once you get a handle on it I think you'll find things are balanced well enough without any changes. It won't seem that way at first because you'll be all "Holy crpa that feat is awesome!" and they'll be all "WTF that card is borked!" But over time you'll figure out how to use these cards wisely.

By way of example: A lot of hero players seem to take issue with Crushing Blow (from AoD, I think?) and how it destroys an item they earned. Someone else int his forum was recently pointing out how there's a hero weapon that gives a re-roll which inherently makes the weapon undodgable (if the OL tries to play a Dodge card the hero can use this re-roll to cancel it, per the FAQ.) This is the kind of weapon that would be great to use CB on. When you first start playing, you might use CB on all sorts of things you don't really need it for and the heroes will (rightly) think that was a bit over the top, but there are items out there that can make your life as OL miserable, and CB exists to solve that problem for you. Of course those items won't show up every game, so it might take a while before you see why CB isn't so broken after all.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Descent is balanced as written, but only as written. That balance is a house of cards and it can easily be thrown to the wind if people go around making house rules for "logic" or for "fairness." A lot of people say they understand that the OL has a fair shot at winning, but then they complain when he TPKs the heroes in three turns. Just play the rules as written and give it a few games every time you introduce new content, you'll find your way to a balanced play experience just fine. You may end up changing a thing or two to keep the game fun - that's all well and good - but you should play the game first and make changes second . Trying to pre-empt the game by making house rules first is only going to lead you to wonder why the game is so broken without likely realizing it's broken because you're deliberately playing it wrong. =P

inle_badger said:

Maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't the other party members just kill the one with the Black Ring?

"Balancing" non-RtL/SoB Descent doesn't really make a lot of sense, because the balance (well, external balance anyway) is entirely Quest-dependent. The best you could do is define the 'balance' as the Hero/Overlord average win percentage over ALL published Quests from all expansions, and try and make some kind of sweeping, global change to put this ratio close to 50/50; however, in any actual game, it's of course going to depend on the Quest you play. There's simply no comparison between JitD Quest 1: Into the Dark and WoD Quest 6: A Hot Time, regardless of whether you're using Treachery.

The one point I do certainly agree with is that Dark Glyphs (particularly Green ones) are stupidly overpowered. Why they weren't just another brand of Treachery card is completely beyond me. Killing a glyph for zero threat without ever needing to draw the card or take up space in your hand or risk it being dropped by Wind Pact is just insane. Personally, I just don't use them. Mr. Badger's suggestion of randomizing their placement *might* be enough, but my intuition is that the Green ones would still be too strong.

Still, even this isn't so much an issue with external balance (there certainly ARE quests that are quite beatable for the Heroes even with Green glyphs in play), but more with internal balance - you'll never take more than 1 Green treachery card ever so long as Green Glyphs are available. The bang for your buck is simply sans pareil.

Cymbaline said:

At the cost of giving the OL however many CTs that hero was worth, yes. Personally I don't have a problem with that. The OL played a card and one way or another he gets something out of it. Either the hero with the ring with effectively neutralised for a few turns (until the party gets and expends the resources of a Remove Curse), or the OL buys himself some CTs when they mercy kill their friend.