Quick thought on reading the Shinkigami rules. It states you create one with an (artisan skill) check . Which makes sense, if you're making it from paper, it would be composition, if you're making a jewelry like piece, or sewing cloth or leather together, it would be design, ect.

But then it states that the invocations it casts use your Composition skill as its skill rank. Shouldn't that be the (artisan skill) it was created with? Composition if its paper, sure.

side question, if a Meishodo made a Meishodo talisman of an invocation before sealing it into a Shinkigami, could you still use that talisman as if YOU were a shugenja that couldnt cast that invocation, to use it a number of times equal to your school rank?

Side eye question, could you make a meishodo talisman also be a shinkigami, one invocation for the talisman, another sealed for the shinkigami?

I feel the extra cost of making it composition is legit. As this technique is already one of the most powerful in the game and composition doesn't have many shuji or other abilities associated with it.

But you do you.

Regarding meishodo, I also wouldn't make it work, as I also don't make it work for prepared invocations. But again, no big deal probably.

This technique is mostly ultra absurdely good for the auto success with 2bonus and 2opp (which is, for some invocations really hard to achieve such powerful result for most shugenja, especially for higher TN invocations).

And also for the sheer utility a mobile intelligent invocation casting subtle turret is to start with, and the possibility of double actions per turn with water ring.

Shikigami is a must investment for all shugenja if the GM allows it. It is simply one of those, super strong and versatile technique, good for all kinds of situations, that is a no brainer to pick for a mere 3xp.

My best guess is that a Shikigami is actually made using two skills: one to craft its physical form (which CAN'T be Composition, because even if you're origami'ing, that's not what Composition does) and the other to actually inscribe the prayer/request to the Kami (aka, the invocations) within it (which HAS TO be Composition).

11 minutes ago, JBento said:

My best guess is that a Shikigami is actually made using two skills: one to craft its physical form (which CAN'T be Composition, because even if you're origami'ing, that's not what Composition does) and the other to actually inscribe the prayer/request to the Kami (aka, the invocations) within it (which HAS TO be Composition).

A fair way to at least balance it a bit. Still way too stronk, but at least it cost more xp.

Thats a prepared invocation though. the gami doesn't involve writing anything, you're imparting a piece of your soul into the thing, and putting your mental knowledge of the invocation into it. hence why you can make it out of a ball of mud, or a small flame. you are taking a thing and investing spirit into it. I mean... i could KINDA see the composition angle as tying it into, you are creating a representation of your mind, much like writing a story or poem.

As for water ring, nay nay. Your additional action may not be one that requires a check. the support as assist action requires a check. Yes, you're directing the shin to make it, but personally, I wouldn't let ANY assistance to another character's check count as the free water ring action. that don't seem right to me.

yes, the auto spell once a scene is pretty powerful, but, any spells locked away are gone for you to use.

33 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

Thats a prepared invocation though. the gami doesn't involve writing anything, you're imparting a piece of your soul into the thing, and putting your mental knowledge of the invocation into it. hence why you can make it out of a ball of mud, or a small flame. you are taking a thing and investing spirit into it. I mean... i could KINDA see the composition angle as tying it into, you are creating a representation of your mind, much like writing a story or poem.

As for water ring, nay nay. Your additional action may not be one that requires a check. the support as assist action requires a check. Yes, you're directing the shin to make it, but personally, I wouldn't let ANY assistance to another character's check count as the free water ring action. that don't seem right to me.

yes, the auto spell once a scene is pretty powerful, but, any spells locked away are gone for you to use.

Like I said, I don't allow the -1tn, but it isnt gamebreaking. Maybe add the roleplay that the magic the shikigami releases is obviously meishodo (in some parts of rokugan or in front of certain shugenja it matters).

The once per scene is really good. Some spells are high enough TN that to be casted without backlash can be a challenge. The bugger let it off at 2bonus 2opport from a turret spot! But as written, that is what it is, I houserule it personally.

I don't think think you can assist with water as both the shikigami action and the assist action are support action though. If I recall correctly.

Oh, i wouldn't let the gami USE the meishodo. I just mean having it do double duty, as well as being a mobile meishodo that can take itself to another shujenja, letting them use the talisman.

The assist action IS part of shikigami action. The support action states that you are using the support action to assist the gami in casting. So I would say that a water stance extra action can't be used for the gami action, because a check is involved.

44 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

Oh, i wouldn't let the gami USE the meishodo. I just mean having it do double duty, as well as being a mobile meishodo that can take itself to another shujenja, letting them use the talisman.

The assist action IS part of shikigami action. The support action states that you are using the support action to assist the gami in casting. So I would say that a water stance extra action can't be used for the gami action, because a check is involved.

Oh yeah, theres that too... Damned shikigami lol.

I also houserule so that you cannot double up with water ring.

That is how I ruled it, can you foolproof it as ok?

For their  ability Restricted action : clarify that the ritualist cannot use this action as their water stance additional    action if the action the shikigami performs  includes  a check.

That seems right to me. That said, I would argue that no assistance to a check can be a water ring second action.

31 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

That seems right to me. That said, I would argue that no assistance to a check can be a water ring second action.

It is, indeed, the strongest part of water, that and the double move.

Though, to be fair, fire is downright the most powerful ring to win conflicts. Bar none, not having a good fire ring for combat or intrigues doesn't make you a winner.

Earth allows you to stall a lot of things, and Air, well Air is decent at lower rank, but I still "think" it gets weaker around rank 2-3. Have not tested it at rank 4 yet.

16 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

It is, indeed, the strongest part of water, that and the double move.

Though, to be fair, fire is downright the most powerful ring to win conflicts. Bar none, not having a good fire ring for combat or intrigues doesn't make you a winner.

Earth allows you to stall a lot of things, and Air, well Air is decent at lower rank, but I still "think" it gets weaker around rank 2-3. Have not tested it at rank 4 yet.

It really depends on what you're playing. Fire bottoms out its usefulness for Shugenja. 2 strife tops for those bonus successes. Earth can be very useful to shut down a fire heavy, and water is, well, jack of all trades esque. Air is really good for a lot of social interactions, as well as shinobi . The rings in terms of stances are very much a game of rock paper scissors, which is why things that let you control another's stance can be so powerful,( or change your own. My Meishodo Shuggy rolled stolen knowledge on the history table, and I ended up with a kiho. Its funny in his story, because he has a fondness for monks and the idea of using magic through your own body, not just the invocations, and wants to learn kiho. he doesn't know that the technique his uncle taught him IS a kiho! But i digress. Its way of the seafoam. I've used it a few times without water present just of the burst effect. Move 2 range bands, change stance if you want. Lets me get into place and then move to Earth, go into guard action. )

4 minutes ago, Scrivener Spills said:

It really depends on what you're playing. Fire bottoms out its usefulness for Shugenja. 2 strife tops for those bonus successes. Earth can be very useful to shut down a fire heavy, and water is, well, jack of all trades esque. Air is really good for a lot of social interactions, as well as shinobi . The rings in terms of stances are very much a game of rock paper scissors, which is why things that let you control another's stance can be so powerful,( or change your own. My Meishodo Shuggy rolled stolen knowledge on the history table, and I ended up with a kiho. Its funny in his story, because he has a fondness for monks and the idea of using magic through your own body, not just the invocations, and wants to learn kiho. he doesn't know that the technique his uncle taught him IS a kiho! But i digress. Its way of the seafoam. I've used it a few times without water present just of the burst effect. Move 2 range bands, change stance if you want. Lets me get into place and then move to Earth, go into guard action. )

not really rock paper scissor... except increased TN here and there depending on technique. If you want to kill or win, you should always use Fire, it is simply far superior to the other rings for attacks.

and Earth doesn't help against Fire at all. Air is probably your best bet, but gets a bit weak at rank 2-3.

the basic defensive strat can change, depending what weapons you are facing. But ultimately; earth to not take crit (if facing high deadliness weapons), water to move or heal, fire to attack. air and void are super situational and not very good. well, air is good at rank 1 against mooks.

Cant use opportunity to crit me, so those bonus successes aren't much use if you don't clear my fatigue first. use my opps to raise my resistance so that im taking less fatigue. You keep taking strife to try and hit me harder, im going to compromise your ***, and THEN , now that i've worn you down, beat your ***.

18 hours ago, Scrivener Spills said:

Cant use opportunity to crit me, so those bonus successes aren't much use if you don't clear my fatigue first. use my opps to raise my resistance so that im taking less fatigue. You keep taking strife to try and hit me harder, im going to compromise your ***, and THEN , now that i've worn you down, beat your ***.

It works in a fight in which you wear an heavy armor. Thats about it.

it worked for my shugenja against a beginner bushi who was fire heavy. he got compromised after a few strikes that I weathered with earth, couldn't keep his strife, I switched to water and started pounding him.