This tread has been corrupted by a load of fatties lets bounce this back to subject and talk about the Meta.

not to completely derail this thread but are you aware how many diffrent words there are in ccg's for tapping a card? (currputing in this game)

i play a lot of games and i think its unrealistic to expect me to use all the 'correct' words for that game at the time.

before i even looked at a single magic card, i knew what the words tap, draw, shuffle, cut, scoop, fog,bounce, cantrip, and many many more ment just from playing other games.

this is the language of playing cards and i think you would be wrong to make new ones up for this game, the words are already out there.

i totally agree that you have the right to ask what the words means and that some times they are not clear, but that doesnt mean that i shouldnt use them.

Scoop, tier etc are fairly common terms. I don't play Magic and instead learnt the terms when playing L5R and Raw Deal. Trying to force a playerbase to adopt new slang for which there are already existing terms strikes me as being very stubborn. When agg and I are building decks I'll use the term 'Fog' when referring to a damage-prevention card even though I had no idea why that word was being used until the etymology was explained to me.

I think that the environment and its problems should be well-understood by now. The only benefit of the four reports from Sheffield are that they show the problems again, but in a field that was more than just a dozen people and in a field with a range of different playgroups*, meaning that the results have more weight to them.

*Getting players from Newcastle to Birmingham means that you have a huge mix of playgroup styles, far more than the equivalent distances in America.

Wytefang said:

Newspeak doubleplusgood goodthinkwise?

More seroiusly, forget English and American, lets stick with French as I'm having a distinct case of deja vu

Wytefang said:

If you can find me an example of a different name for the action of "bouncing" other than returning to hand that developed spontaneously in a different game, I'd love to hear it. The only time new words appear in a game is if the game rules make it that way by naming a mechanic differently (e.g. bowing, kneeling, locking instead of tapping). However, no one is saying "tapping" instead of "corrupting" so that isn't the issue.

And this game is not "new and entirely different". It's a game. With cards. With decks. With tournaments. That uses card effects that can be transposed onto any number of card games and still work in roughly the same way, and I'm willing to bet a large number of those who play it are people who have played those similar games in the past.

I've already said if people don't understand a term they can ask, no-one is going to rip into them for not knowing and I think there's a thread somewhere that answers those kind of questions, it's just when you say "oh, we should make up new terms" - okay then, what new terms do you propose? Because a general consensus isn't going to miraculously spring up world wide, especially when a large number of people already use existing terms for things.

I've re-read that, and if it sounds rude in any way I apologise, it is not meant to.

So is there any chance we can stop rehashing an argument which has clearly been had many times before and on which no-one is going to change their view and go back to bashing Skaven as being broken?

Does the Empire player from Sheffield post here?

Andwat said:

Infrequently when I'm not being forced slave to slave away organising high value negotiation strategies or rolling around on the floor in angry white pj's...

How may I be of service.......

I have been tinkering with reproducing your Empire deck and wondered if you would be willing to share a decklist.

We built what we think is the correct version after the event but it would be nice to see some confirmation. We did some testing and are still unsure what you do against blitz apart from hope that you win the Judgement lottery.

crowdedmind said:

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

(i.e. I second that, we can't figure out how to get any kind of consistently decent win % with empire against rush either).

Doc9 said:

I'm happy that YOU were able to figure out what a Tiered deck was or what Bounce meant but assuming that because you somehow magically inferred their meaning everyone else should be able to as well, is pretty myopic. And you can bet that if someone posts a remark laden with confusing terms, I'll be there to call 'em out for it if I have no clue what they're saying. And there's NOTHING wrong with that at all - if anything, the person who wrote the post should be pleased that someone else cared about what they were writing enough to actually ask for a translation rather than just ignoring or skipping their posts.

As for your remark, "Quit trying to control how people describe their game." I've made it pretty clear that I'm not expecting anyone to use new terms per se (though I'd love to see more of them develop for this new and unique game) but to use common sense and post things with less slang terms familiar to only them through some former game they've played. Not an unusual or unreasonable request. Nuff said.

LordMalinari said:

Certainly (it's a reasonable request) - that same concept was labeled "Recycling" in Spellfire and it was far more clear. I've also heard the term "Boomerang" used (in other random games) which makes even more sense considering how one of those interesting contraptions works.

LordMalinari said:

It's new and unique within its genre, though, certainly. I'm not disagreeing however that some terms won't become stapes based on the concepts they represent which might be similar across card game themes. Fair enough. It's the annoying variety of slang terms that people just assume everyone else should know that drives me (and not only me) nuts and makes communication difficult (at times) in these forums.

LordMalinari said:

I wouldn't take it that way, you weren't rude (like some non-regulars here have been at times) and you've always made good contributions to the site, LordMalinari. I appreciate your remarks.

But boomerang is a term taken from Magic There was originally a bounce spell called boomerang iirc. And recycling would get confusing with regards other players using it in the context of getting card back from the graveyard, but I didn't know it was used in some games. Put me in my place Yeah, I can see how overuse of lingo can be a pain, but a whole new lingo isn't going to develop for W:I when a portion of its player base overlaps with other games with established accepted lingo.

crowdedmind said:

As Andrew has posted his deck list at the start of this thread and I'm sure that you won't have any issues posting yours Mike so that people can view all top 3 deck lists.

Judgement Lottery indicates that the outcome is all about luck. With the reuslts and consistency the deck returns its more about timing than luck. It does take a couple of turns to set up and against blitz you are bound to take some damage and probably lose a zone in ther process. Its all about picking the right moment to play out the decks multiple combnations.

Here is my Empire decklist, hope your find it useful.

Units:

Reiksguard Knights x3
Gold Wizard Acolyte x3
Pistoliers x3
Johannes Broheim x3
Reiksguard Swordsmen x3
Peasant Militia x3
Zealot Hunter x3

Tactics:

Innovation x3
Will of the Electors x3
Forced March x3
Iron Discipline x3
Judgement of Verena x3

Support:

Warpstone Excavation x3
Contested Village x3
Contested Stronghold x3
Shrine to Taal x3
City Gates x3
Rung Fang of Solland x3

well maybe you can shed some more light on this then, but to us when we played the match vs aggro you only win games when you judgement. every other game you lose. to me that just makes it all about if you hit those cards before you die.

please feel free to tell us we are wrong im sure you will know more about your own deck than we do, and gratz for comming 2nd.

tearmat said:

I posted my deck in the deck forum, here: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp. I'm glad that everyone's willing to publish their decklists as it should help inform other players of the environment and maybe let people work out how to beat the archetypes that keep winning.

tearmat said:

What do you do against blitz if you can't manage an early Judgement? I'm not suggesting that the deck is entirely luck-based, but when we were testing both what we thought was your build (we had it at 50 cards with only two copies of Reiksguard Swordsmen and no copies of Contested Fortress) and similar Empire decks before the event we found that we were fine if we saw a Will/Judgement early and if not it was usually a frantic dig to get one, hence the lottery comment. Do you play very aggressively and try to keep pace with blitz decks or do you try to turtle up and whether the storm? If it's the latter what are you waiting to draw if not Judgement? I tried a variant with Ulric's Fury and Sigmar's Intervention as a way to slaughter an attacking army if I couldn't find a Judgement but it ended up being too slow to make a difference.

As I said after the game I really like the Militia/Runefang combo and will be stealing this idea for future use.

My mocked up version went with Gates of Sigmar (the increase tactics by 1 cost card) rather than City Gates/Iron Discipline, mainly as I am a bit obsessive about sticking to 50 cards.

I am really on the fence about Warpstone. You need to be able to defend two zones and one of those wont be the battlefield as all of your initial resources are plowed into Kingdom and Quest. This tends to make Warpstone a very annoying play. I am also not sure about what happens when you move a unit into the Warpstone zone as opposed to playing one into it. Is it corrupted or not? As I recall you were corrupting Johannes/Pistoliers when moving them across but I am not certain if that is correct.

Andwat said:

The unit is entering that zone and so will be corrupted. A solution if you could find space would be Blessing of Isha, which would also double up as Sniktch hate and protection from things like Seduced by Darkness. I would imagine that given a real choice the deck wouldn't run it, but it's too much of production loss not to do so.

crowdedmind said:

Yeah, it was in the FAQ "A unit that moves from one zone to another is considered to have entered the new zone, but not to have entered play"

Wytefang said:

~What does "remark" mean?

Ok, I'd better explain. The tilde is frequently used amongst the AGOT community to denote sarcasm. We lovingly call it the sarcasterisk. Though someone like Longclaw or Dormouse might have already hit on this.

Seriously though, we're beating that particular topic to death here, guys. And all I do is lurk and read for the most part! But seriously, I think we all ought to accept that there are no truly new concepts here and certainly not in the realm of language. Only new application. Whytefang, your use of the term "Boomerang" in another post even goes on to confirm the argument that others have made that while many of these terms might have originated with Magic: the Gathering, they are now so widespread that they are just common usage for the realm of card games. Suggestions to create entirely new terminology for Warhammer because it's a different game are akin to saying that we can't "kick" a ball in football because that term has already been used in soccer. Certainly, we may have to occasionally explain a term to someone new to the game or the genre, but using terms that are widely recognized by people with experience in a variety of games and only unfamiliar to a handful is vastly preferable to using overly convoluted or differentiated terms that are unfamiliar to newbies and experienced gamers. At least, if you're wanting to get as many people as possible playing this great game with as little hassle as possible.

Now back to the real topic here. Congrats to Empire. They've been my favorite faction for some time now (though some of these High Elf cards have me pondering a switch) and I'm eager to hear more about a winning deck concept. I'd like to have someone able to go toe to toe with Skaven by the time GenCon rolls around.

Like I explained, there are good reasons for not being cliquey through our use of pre-existing terminology, also. It's just as off-putting as the creation of an entirely new lexicon for the game. I wasn't saying that we simply have to come up with some bizarre new terms in an artificial way - my point is that we should be willing to let the game and the community organically develop the terms that best match this game. Again, I've clearly laid out the reasons why and they're certainly as factual as the arguments against my complaints. Let's all agree to leave it at that and move on. If someone uses a wonky term I'm sure myself or someone else won't mind just asking what they mean. I'll admit to not being comfortable being forced to accept the usages of terms from games I've not been fond of or terribly engrossed in but it's hardly the end of the world. I'll just to have to content myself with thinking (privately) how silly it is and how sheep-like we can all be at times...

I can't wait to be in a tourney and write a report so filled with "cryptic" slang from mtg that it'll make your head spin. it's gonna be SPALDING!!

Then you need to join ours, shun! I, for one, would love to read about The Show from your viewpoint. Check out the W:I homepage and the headline "Blood in the Sun". It's good stuff fo' rizzle. Low cost, multiple sides, cute gals; it's like ladies' night at Taco Bell, only with games.

f7eleven said:

Not to worry - I would just gloss over it if that's the case.