44 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

A couple examples: If they are in a Sil 4, Speed 3 ship and are tractored by a VSD (tractor value 9) they would face a difficulty of RPPPP (which is actually no different from the base game), which I think is reasonable given the situation. Likewise, if they were in a Sil 5 ship with a medium tractor beam and tried to tractor an NPC's starfighter (Sil 3, Speed 5) the difficulty for the NPC would be PPP. Not all that hard. I believe that my rules are exceptionally balanced (even if I do say so myself) and I think that they don't not fit within universe (I can't say that they "fit" cause we don't really know enough).

Your system doesn't differentiate between a military sil 5 ship with a heavy duty combat tractor beam and a sil 5 civilian cargo ship with a tractor beam that's mostly used for moving cargo around and facilitating docking.

4 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Your system doesn't differentiate between a military sil 5 ship with a heavy duty combat tractor beam and a sil 5 civilian cargo ship with a tractor beam that's mostly used for moving cargo around and facilitating docking.

Sure it does. Heavy Tractor Beam, Medium Tractor Beam, Light Tractor Beam.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

How does it make it worse?

Way more complicated for no real gain at all.

41 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Way more complicated for no real gain at all.

Regardless of whether you're right or wrong, that is irrelevant as the issue was the system not making sense. I believe that my house rules fix that. Whether or not you think it creates timing problems (which I am certain it doesn't) is another issue.

26 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Regardless of whether you're right or wrong, that is irrelevant as the issue was the system not making sense. I believe that my house rules fix that. Whether or not you think it creates timing problems (which I am certain it doesn't) is another issue.

To you based on your assumptions. And a needlessly complicated system wont make things better. You were offered cleaner easier sytems but you rejected them in preference to your overcomplicated one.

Basically your system adds a lot of math that will likely lead to your party being trapped with no escape.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

To you based on your assumptions. And a needlessly complicated system wont make things better. You were offered cleaner easier sytems but you rejected them in preference to your overcomplicated one.

I've already rejected your premise on this. I think that you are wildly overestimating the time and thought required. A little bit of preparation reduces the time to near nil.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Basically your system adds a lot of math that will likely lead to your party being trapped with no escape.

The only situation in which it becomes harder for them than in the RAW is if they are in a starfighter (or REALLY slow Sil 4 [speed 1]) and are tractored by an ISD or bigger. Have you actually tested (doesn't have to be in play) my system or even calculated it out at all? I think you will find that it is very balanced.

9 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I've already rejected your premise on this. I think that you are wildly overestimating the time and thought required. A little bit of preparation reduces the time to near nil.

The only situation in which it becomes harder for them than in the RAW is if they are in a starfighter (or REALLY slow Sil 4 [speed 1]) and are tractored by an ISD or bigger. Have you actually tested (doesn't have to be in play) my system or even calculated it out at all? I think you will find that it is very balanced.

So whats the point then? And an ISD seems like a pretty likely source of tractor beam attacks

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

So whats the point then? And an ISD seems like a pretty likely source of tractor beam attacks

The point is that the system makes more sense and is more contingent on the situation. Even if it doesn't make it harder to escape, it makes it easier in the proper situations.
I mentioned the ISD because it is Sil 8. The only way to have a difficulty of RRPPP on a Sil 4 Speed 3 is if the firing ship is Sil 11. If the firing ship was Sil 7, the difficulty would be PPPPP.

8 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The point is that the system makes more sense and is more contingent on the situation. Even if it doesn't make it harder to escape, it makes it easier in the proper situations.
I mentioned the ISD because it is Sil 8. The only way to have a difficulty of RRPPP on a Sil 4 Speed 3 is if the firing ship is Sil 11. If the firing ship was Sil 7, the difficulty would be PPPPP.

Make more sense to you. I look at it and go why do i need all this math that will likely trap players running when they should run. Your system really screws you party if they dont have a dedicated pilot. Your system is way over complicated when the system is a movie simulator not a reality simulator

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

I look at it and go why do i need all this math that will likely trap players running when they should. Your system really screws you party if they dont have a dedicated pilot.

I just demonstrated conclusively that it is very unlikely that it will be any HARDER than the RAW. If you have a problem with the difficulty of my system, than you should have an even bigger problem with the RAW.

Have you even tested or calculated out my system? You seem to have some serious misconceptions.

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I just demonstrated conclusively that it is very unlikely that it will be any HARDER than the RAW. If you have a problem with the difficulty of my system, than you should have an even bigger problem with the RAW.

Have you even tested or calculated out my system? You seem to have some serious misconceptions.

No you demonstrated that in a situation involving an ISD the characters are F****d more so if they lack a dedicated pilot. So you have made iconic scenes like Han running from multiple ISDs verboten

Just now, Daeglan said:

No you demonstrated that in a situation involving an ISD the characters are F****d more so if they lack a dedicated pilot. So you have made iconic scenes like Han running from multiple ISDs verboten

That is the exact same difficulty as the RAW. As far as Han running from multiple ISDs, there are a couple options: They missed him with the tractor beams, or they didn't even try to use them. If you'll recall, the one time he was caught in a tractor beam (by the Death Star) he was unable to escape.

On 8/1/2019 at 9:52 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "target side of the equation will take longer" and yes, it does enhance my game, but I understand if other people don't like the complexity.

The official rules do sort of account for the size of the source vessel, but they don't account for the size of the target vessel.

No, actually, because the difference in silhouette between the ISD and said generic light freighter is 5, but the difference in speed (remember it is divided by 2 in my equation) is just .5.

Thanks for the tip, but in this case, I think that the benefit outweighs the cost because of how much of the equation can be done in prep work and then be applied to any targets.

I know that there are probably a couple people in this thread who would groan at this ;D, but I'll get right on that. I've been unsatisfied with those rules for a while. Also distance perception checks.

So far you are saying your difficulties are the same which leads me to the what the **** do we need your rules for?

Just now, Daeglan said:

Sonfar you are saying your difficulties are the same which leads me to the what the hellndonwe need your rulesnfor?

We are going in circles. I'm telling you that it rarely makes it more difficult it often either keeps the same difficulty or makes it easier. Your point was that "these rules **** the PCs" and so my counter-point is that it doesn't make the difficulty any worse with a ship that is a pretty good analogue for the Millennium Falcon.

It only gets more difficult (as far as spaceships go) if you are in a Sil 3, Speed 3, or Sil 4, Speed 1 ship.

HAVE YOU TESTED THE SYSTEM? If you think it is unbalanced FIND WHERE IT IS UNBALANCED AND TELL ME. You have not made evidenced arguments at all in this exchange.

13 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

We are going in circles. I'm telling you that it rarely makes it more difficult it often either keeps the same difficulty or makes it easier. Your point was that "these rules **** the PCs" and so my counter-point is that it doesn't make the difficulty any worse with a ship that is a pretty good analogue for the Millennium Falcon.

It only gets more difficult (as far as spaceships go) if you are in a Sil 3, Speed 3, or Sil 4, Speed 1 ship.

HAVE YOU TESTED THE SYSTEM? If you think it is unbalanced FIND WHERE IT IS UNBALANCED AND TELL ME. You have not made evidenced arguments at all in this exchange.

No because i am unwilling to do the math. And doing the math just to cover rare edge cases is silly. The math just bogs the game down.

You have been given a solution thatnis far far more in line with the mechanics and spirit of this game that does not involve a buch of math that isnt needed.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

No because i am unwilling to do the math. And doing the math just to cover rare edge cases is silly.

Then what are you doing here? If you haven't even tried the math, you can't say that it takes too long. If you are just running through random edge cases it will take a little bit longer because you can't have prepped the Tractor Values ahead of time, but it is really quite simple. Rating+Sil÷3[rounded]+2=base difficulty-target Sil-(Speed÷2[rounded down]=difficulty). Looks far more complex than it really is, and you reduce it to 2.5 operations (value-Sil-[Speed÷2]) if you do the prep work. Difficult Terrain RAW: If Speed>Sil, then Speed÷2[rounded up]=X, otherwise Sil÷2[rounded up]=X. If Speed>Sil, then upgrade X by Speed, otherwise upgrade X by Sil. In a mathematical formula, it looks more complicated, but it is a more precise way of communicating the process.
As far as edge cases go, if the math breaks down somewhere it could mean that the entire system is flawed.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Then what are you doing here? If you haven't even tried the math, you can't say that it takes too long. If you are just running through random edge cases it will take a little bit longer because you can't have prepped the Tractor Values ahead of time, but it is really quite simple. Rating+Sil÷3[rounded]+2=base difficulty-target Sil-(Speed÷2[rounded down]=difficulty). Looks far more complex than it really is, and you reduce it to 2.5 operations (value-Sil-[Speed÷2]) if you do the prep work. Difficult Terrain RAW: If Speed>Sil, then Speed÷2[rounded up]=X, otherwise Sil÷2[rounded up]=X. If Speed>Sil, then upgrade X by Speed, otherwise upgrade X by Sil. In a mathematical formula, it looks more complicated, but it is a more precise way of communicating the process.
As far as edge cases go, if the math breaks down somewhere it could mean that the entire system is flawed.

I can say it takes to long. Because it takes longer than the RAW rules. Which is too long especially if as you claim it doesnt change the difficulty in most cases. Why add more complications for rare cases? There is no benefit for you.

Just now, Daeglan said:

I can say it takes to long. Because it takes longer than the RAW rules. Which is too long especially if as you claim it doesnt change the difficulty in most cases. Why add more complications for rare cases? There is no benefit for you.

It does change the difficulty in most cases. It just doesn't INCREASE the difficulty in most cases. And if you know that a Sil 4, Speed 2-3 ship being tractored by an ISD is going to have a difficulty of RPPPP you don't have to do the math because you already know what it's going to be.

Too long is different than longer, and is contingent upon the benefit granted.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

It does change the difficulty in most cases. It just doesn't INCREASE the difficulty in most cases. And if you know that a Sil 4, Speed 2-3 ship being tractored by an ISD is going to have a difficulty of RPPPP you don't have to do the math because you already know what it's going to be.

Too long is different than longer, and is contingent upon the benefit granted.

Which is also problematic.

Just now, Daeglan said:

Which is also problematic.

What is?

You have shifted the balance. You want Tractor beams to be reliable enough to capture character with a reasonable chance the can get away. If.you make it easier to escape tractor beams they arent a threat. It it is too hard it just discourages players.

I trust the balance FFG has set up to be fun. You system increases resolution time while doing nothing ro add to the fun. I get it you are a math geek. You find math fun. But the time spent on your math it not spent on telling the story. And the story is what is important. Not your math

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

What is?

The whole thing is problematic. That's the point everyone is trying to get through to you. It's too much math for no benefit and it just makes things more complicated. The power of a tractor beam is not dependent upon a ship's size; rather, it's dependent upon the beam's specific strength based upon it's intended purpose . Specifically, whether it's only intended for hauling cargo, or capturing ships. Secondly, while a Tractor beam may be based upon Deflector shield tech, it does not run off of the deflector shields themselves. It's an independent system.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

You have shifted the balance. You want Tractor beams to be reliable enough to capture character with a reasonable chance the can get away. If.you make it easier to escape tractor beams they arent a threat. It it is too hard it just discourages players.

It is only easier for larger ships (sil 5+) or fast Sil 4 ships (speed 4+) (as far as the ISD goes at least). I think that my system strikes the proper balance in this case though because of how proportionate it is.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I trust the balance FFG has set up to be fun. You system increases resolution time while doing nothing ro add to the fun. I get it you are a math geek. You find math fun. But the time spent on your math it not spent on telling the story. And the story is what is important. Not your math

Duly noted. However I still disagree regarding resolution time. It only takes me 2-5 seconds to set it up if I have plotted out the Tractor Value ahead of time. If I haven't, it takes me about 10 seconds (and if the PCs have a Tractor Beam, or I intend to use a Tractor beam, I will have calculated out the Value already). As far as story goes, I believe that balanced rules that make sense help the story move more smoothly.

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The power of a tractor beam is not dependent upon a ship's size; rather, it's dependent upon the beam's specific strength based upon it's intended purpose . Specifically, whether it's only intended for hauling cargo, or capturing ships.

Yes. If you're hauling cargo, you will probably only need a medium or light tractor beam. If you are capturing ships you will probably need heavy tractor beams. The size bit is just an approximation of how much power the ship has access to.

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Secondly, while a Tractor beam may be based upon Deflector shield tech, it does not run off of the deflector shields themselves. It's an independent system.

Yeah, what's your point?

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

It is only easier for larger ships (sil 5+) or fast Sil 4 ships (speed 4+) (as far as the ISD goes at least). I think that my system strikes the proper balance in this case though because of how proportionate it is.

Duly noted. However I still disagree regarding resolution time. It only takes me 2-5 seconds to set it up if I have plotted out the Tractor Value ahead of time. If I haven't, it takes me about 10 seconds (and if the PCs have a Tractor Beam, or I intend to use a Tractor beam, I will have calculated out the Value already). As far as story goes, I believe that balanced rules that make sense help the story move more smoothly.

Yes. If you're hauling cargo, you will probably only need a medium or light tractor beam. If you are capturing ships you will probably need heavy tractor beams. The size bit is just an approximation of how much power the ship has access to.

Yeah, what's your point?

My point is that you previously and very erroneously tied Tractor beams in with Shields. Secondly, The size of the ship is completely irrelevant . The only thing that matters is the power of the tractor beam itself , And that is already determined by the Tractor Beam's rating . There is no need to add any more complexity to that. And, guess what, Star Destroyers already have ten Heavy Tractor Beams (Tractor 6). Most smaller ships, or freighters are only going to likely have Medium (TR 4) or Light (Tr 2) Tractor Beams. No more math is necessary, and only makes things overly complicated.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

My point is that you previously and very erroneously tied Tractor beams in with Shields.

I've already explained myself on that one, so unless you are referring to something that I didn't actually cover, I would just refer you to those posts.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Secondly, The size of the ship is completely irrelevant . The only thing that matters is the power of the tractor beam itself , And that is already determined by the Tractor Beam's rating . There is no need to add any more complexity to that.

I'm using size as a stand-in for power generation because the larger the ship, the more power is required, and the more power can be produced. That also goes into what I was saying earlier about shielding. Plus if I simply removed that without putting something in to replace it it would unbalance the system.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, guess what, Star Destroyers already have ten Heavy Tractor Beams (Tractor 6). Most smaller ships, or freighters are only going to likely have Medium (TR 4) or Light (Tr 2) Tractor Beams. No more math is necessary, and only makes things overly complicated.

I'm not sure what your point is regarding the distribution of classes of Tractor Beams, but the reason for more math is that it should be harder for a starfighter to escape the pull of an ISD's tractor beam than for an MC80 Liberty to do so, so having a blanket difficulty makes no sense to me. Here is one way to think about it: a shield generator must cover the entire span of a ship. Sort of like blowing up a balloon, as it expands, it gets thinner, and as it shrinks it gets thicker. if a tractor beam is projecting a field around the target ship, it must operate on a similar principle, thus making the field weaker around a large ship than around a small ship.