This is about the timings of ram damage , obstacle overlapping effects, Damaged Controls and Ruptured Engine , and Navigational Hazards and Dangerous Territory .

Apologies if some of these are obvious or have been answered already.

Question 1 : Assuming a ship stacks several of them in one activation, in which order do the following effects get resolved?

1. Ram damage,
2. Damaged Controls from ramming,
3. Damaged Controls from overlapping an obstacle,
4. Removing an Objective Token to gain a Victory Token from Dangerous Territory
5. Normal damage from overlapping an obstacle,
6. Repairing a damage card from overlapping the station,
7. Ruptured Engine damage.

Question 2: For Navigational Hazards , does the damage have to be dealt by the obstacle, or does any damage dealt while carrying out the maneuver count (e.g. ram damage, Damaged Controls, Ruptured Engine). Does it matter if the Damaged Controls damage is dealt due to overlapping the obstacle?

Question 3 : For Navigational Hazards , if a ship would end their maneuver on an obstacle and take a damage, but would be destroyed by ramming (or Damaged Controls from ramming), does the opposing player gain a Victory Token?

Question 4 : For Dangerous Territory , if a ship would end their maneuver on an obstacle with an Objective Token, but would be destroyed by ramming (or Damaged Controls from ramming), can they still remove the Objective Token to gain a Victory Token by choosing to resolve the objective's Special Rule before resolving the ram or Damaged Controls effects?

Question 5 : If a ship with one hull remaining, with Damaged Controls, were to overlap a friendly ship, could they choose to take the Damaged Controls damage first, be destroyed, and then not have to deal a damage card to the other ship?

Question 6 : If a ship would be destroyed by ramming, and would overlap squadrons, do those squadrons still get to be moved and replaced before the overlapping ship is destroyed?

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Relevant rules:

Damage

Quote

When a ship has damage cards equal to its hull value, it is immediately destroyed... Damage cards are dealt one at a time.

Destroyed Ships And Squadrons

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A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equalling or exceeding its hull value... When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area and place it next to the matching ship card... Destroyed ships and squadrons are no longer in play.

Effects Use and Timing

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A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.

Obstacles

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When a ship or squadron overlaps an obstacle after executing a maneuver, it resolves an effect that depends on the type of obstacle it overlapped...

Overlapping

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If a ship executes a maneuver and its final position would overlap another ship, it cannot finish its maneuver normally. Instead, temporarily reduce its speed by one (without changing the speed dial) and move the ship at the
new speed. This process continues until the ship can finish its maneuver, even if that maneuver is to remain in place at speed “0.” Then deal one facedown damage card to the ship that moved and the closest ship that it overlapped.

If a moving ship or squadron overlaps an obstacle token, it resolves an effect depending on the specific type of obstacle token that it overlapped.

Ship Movement

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To execute a maneuver with a ship, its owner proceeds through the following steps: 1. Determine Course... 2. Move Ship...

Damage Cards

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Damaged Controls - Crew - When you overlap a ship or obstacle, deal 1 facedown damage card to your ship (in addition to all other obstacle effects).

Ruptured Engine - Ship - After you execute a manuever, if the speed on your speed dial is greater than "1", suffer 1 damage.

Objectives

Quote

Dangerous Territory - Special Rule: When a ship overlaps an obstacle, the ship's owner may remove the objective token on that obstacle to gain 1 victory token.

Navigational Hazards - Special Rule: When a ship overlaps an obstacle and suffers 1 or more damage or is dealt 1 or more damage cards, the opposing fleet's owner gains 1 victory token.

Relevant FAQs:

Quote

Q: If a ship overlaps another ship and suffers damage so that it has damage cards equal to its hull value but its final position is overlapping the station obstacle, is that ship destroyed?
A: Yes. The station’s effect is not resolved until after the ship executes its maneuver.

Damaged Controls: This card’s effect resolves during the Move Ship step while executing a maneuver.

Dangerous Territory: This card’s Special Rule effect resolves during the Move Ship step while executing a maneuver.

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My thoughts:

Question 1 : I think 2-4 happen at the same time (so giving player choice), based on the FAQ statments that they happen during the "Move Ship" setp. I think 1 (ram damage) should happen before then, but don't have a reason why other than "it seems sensible." I'd be ok with it happening at the same time as 2-4. I can also see an argument for it having to happen after 2-4, given the "then" in the wording (suggesting that it happens after the ship is placed and has finished its move).

5-6 should happen at the same time (and the Rules Reference confirms you can resolve in either order), and I think 7 must happen at the same time as well, as it is also an "after" effect. The obstacle effects are listed as "after" effects in the rule section on Obstacles, but that isn't made clear in the rules section on Overlapping - however the FAQ on overlapping stations after ramming supports the "after" timing, not a "when" timing.

Question 2 : I think not RAW, but yes RAI. But I'd lean more towards "yes" due to their being an implied "because of the obstacle's effect" in there. Even if it is a Damaged Controls card, that's still being dealt by the damage card, not by the obstacle (some potential for interesting timing here if the obstacle is the station).

Question 3 : I think not. The ship is destroyed immediately on ramming, and immediately removed from the play area. It never gets to the "after execting a maneuver" stage, so never suffers the damage from the obstacle. With Damaged Controls that may be different if that card is dealt during the Move Ship step (even before the ram damage?), and counts for Navigational Hazards (based on Question 2).

Question 4 : Yes; as all those things happen during the Move Ship step, the player gets to choose the order of resolving them. Even if it doesn't make that much sense thematically to deal with "overlapping obstacle" stuff before "ramming ship" stuff.

Question 5 : No clue, see Question 1.

Question 6 : Yes, because the ram damage is dealt after finishing the physical moving, so the ship still ends up overlapping the squadrons.

And updated Below.

37 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

Question 1 : Assuming a ship stacks several of them in one activation, in which order do the following effects get resolved?

1. Ram damage,
2. Damaged Controls from ramming,
3. Damaged Controls from overlapping an obstacle,
4. Removing an Objective Token to gain a Victory Token from Dangerous Territory
5. Normal damage from overlapping an obstacle,
6. Repairing a damage card from overlapping the station,
7. Ruptured Engine damage.  

Question 2: For Navigational Hazards , does the damage have to be dealt by the obstacle, or does any damage dealt while carrying out the maneuver count (e.g. ram damage, Damaged Controls, Ruptured Engine). Does it matter if the Damaged Controls damage is dealt due to overlapping the obstacle?

Question 3 : For Navigational Hazards , if a ship would end their maneuver on an obstacle and take a damage, but would be destroyed by ramming (or Damaged Controls from ramming), does the opposing player gain a Victory Token?

Question 4 : For Dangerous Territory , if a ship would end their maneuver on an obstacle with an Objective Token, but would be destroyed by ramming (or Damaged Controls from ramming), can they still remove the Objective Token to gain a Victory Token by choosing to resolve the objective's Special Rule before resolving the ram or Damaged Controls effects?

Question 5 : If a ship with one hull remaining, with Damaged Controls, were to overlap a friendly ship, could they choose to take the Damaged Controls damage first, be destroyed, and then not have to deal a damage card to the other ship?

Question 6 : If a ship would be destroyed by ramming, and would overlap squadrons, do those squadrons still get to be moved and replaced before the overlapping ship is destroyed?

Question One:

The timing is very close, and very likely to trip people up... But Effectively, Ram Damage and Damaged Controls happen during the move step, whereas overlapping obstacles and Ruptured Engine are happening after the maneuver. Things that are on the same timing can be decided upon.

Question Two:
The intent is for the Obstacle to be the one doing the damage. Its called out specifically so Debris Fields and Asteroids are the ones scoring, in case there is anything else in play. However, I would have to look at the damage step itself. That point is after the maneuver, if there was an overlap of an obstacle. By that time, the damage by Ram damage has already been applied (as it was applied before the after the maneuver step) and doesn't count, because if it did, then damage I suffer anytime in the turn could also technically count by same logic. Perhaps even same game. Damaged Controls is not intended to be an advantage to be so, but I think of everything, that's a question to ask here - as it is a backwards, but logical, conclusion to come to.

Question Three:

No, as it is removed before the Obstacle Overlap is resolved. Unless it is declared to be a Rieekan Zombie.

Question Four:

No, as it is removed before the Obstacle Overlap is resolved. Unless it is declared to be a Rieekan Zombie.

Question Five:

It should not be able to - by sharing the same timing window explicitly, you choose the order of their resolution, rather than their existance. You can generate additional triggers via this, and some of them can be irrelevanted, but essentially - that's not the part you're going to ignore.

I overlap (ram) a friendly ship, while having damaged controls. I generate 2 effects. One is "Deal one damage to it, and to me" and "deal one damage to me".

I choose the order of their resolution (because their timing is supposed to be the same). So I deal one damage to me via damaged controls. This destroys me.

However, I'm still then having to resolve the "deal one damage to it, and to me" effect resolution.... Half of it I can't do (as I am no longer there), but the part I can resolve (one damage to it), I do...

Further triggers that would be resolved after that timing step (such as an obstacle overlap) are not generated after my removal.

Question Six:

ONLY if it is in FINAL POSITION when it overlaps Squadrons.

You do not effectively move squadrons out of the way on the "ramming" portion of the overlap, unless you're placing it in its final position.

Thanks, that is mostly clear. But one thing;

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Question Four: For Dangerous Territory , if a ship would end their maneuver on an obstacle with an Objective Token, but would be destroyed by ramming (or Damaged Controls from ramming), can they still remove the Objective Token to gain a Victory Token by choosing to resolve the objective's Special Rule before resolving the ram or Damaged Controls effects?

No, as it is removed before the Obstacle Overlap is resolved. Unless it is declared to be a Rieekan Zombie.  

My issue with this is that the FAQ states Dangerous Territory's Special Rule happens during the Move Ship step, which is (as I understand it) the timing for ram damage and Damaged Controls damage. The wording is identical to the Damaged Controls FAQ. Meaning it should be possible to choose the ordering.

It sounds a bit inconsistent at first, but not when you consider that actual overlapping happens during the Move Ship step (as with squadrons and ships), but that the specific effects of overlapping obstacles happen later - after the execute maneuver step. And Dangerous Territory is a "when you overlap an obstacle" not a "when you resolve the effect of overlapping an obstacle" thing. Which is consistent with Damaged Controls ("when you overlap"). Although then still messes with Navigational Hazards. But I think that's just unclear wording on Navigational Hazards.

It's that slightly weird difference between overlapping an obstacle and resolving the effect of overlapping an obstacle. Same sort of thing that makes Damaged Controls work on Jaina's Light.

I’d selectively ignore an incorrect FAQ on the subject in light of further clarified responses and a greater understanding of timing issues.

Which I do as both a TO, and with the knowledge of the order in which certain questions were asked and answered and seemingly overwritten.

So... we're just ignoring a rule that's been in the last 3 version of the FAQ because... we don't like it?

Even though it is consistent with all the other rules on timings (that overlapping happens during the Move Ship phase, while resolving the effects of overlapping obstacles happens after executing a maneuver)?

1 hour ago, Grumbleduke said:

So... we're just ignoring a rule that's been in the last 3 version of the FAQ because... we don't like it?

Even though it is consistent with all the other rules on timings (that overlapping happens during the Move Ship phase, while resolving the effects of overlapping obstacles happens after executing a maneuver)?

Not because we don't like it.
Because its inconsistent with the fact that acknowledging you overlapped an obstacle is after, not during, and its timing effect should be with all of the other timing effects dealing with obstacles.

Besides, there are "frequently asked questions" there that weren't even frequently asked when they came out (we as a collective forum were pretty much dumbfounded at their inclusion at the time), so... Yeah.

I mean, the Tournament Regulations *specifically* give me the right (as a Judge) to override the FAQ when its wrong.

20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Because its inconsistent with the fact that acknowledging you overlapped an obstacle is after, not during, and its timing effect should be with all of the other timing effects dealing with obstacles.

Resolving the effects of overlapping an obstacle happens after. But the overlapping itself happens during (as with ships and squadrons). The Rules Reference is a little inconsistent here (between the Obstacles and Overlapping parts) but that seems clear (the Overlapping doesn't specify a timing, while the Obstacles specifies the "after" timing). Like with revealing a Navigate Dial. Revealing it happens at the start of the ship's activation, but resolving the effect of it happens later. So anything based on "when you reveal a Dial" happens during the first timing window, but anything that happens "when you resolve..." happens later.

Dangerous Territory and Damaged Controls are both "when you overlap" timings, so it makes sense that they would happen during the Move Ship step (which is when the overlapping happens), not "after executing a maneuver" (which is when the specific Obstacle effects are resolved). Which also ties in to the issue of Jaina's Light and Damaged Controls - the "effects" of overlapping could be any consequence, or it could be the specific effects set out in the Rules Reference section on Obstacles.

Navigational Hazards is inconsistent, as it refers to both "when a ship overlaps..." and the "and suffers [damage]", which are different timings. But finding a clearer way to phrase that, which is also concise enough to fit on a card, seems a little difficult (maybe "After a ship overlaps an obstacle, if it suffered 1 or more damage or was dealt 1 or more damage cards [by overlapping that obstacle]...").

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Edit: except then there's this line:

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A ship ... overlaps an obstacle if part of its base is on top of the obstacle token after moving ... [emphasis added]

So the test for "have I overlapped an obstacle" happens "after moving." So does that just mean "after the Move Ship" step (which makes the FAQ timing on Damaged Controls and Dangerous Territory inconsistent)? Probably not - it seems to be a more generic term for physically changing something's position throughout the Rules Reference, e.g. "If a ship executes a speed-0 maneuver, it does not move from its current position, but it is still considered to have executed a maneuver" where the ship doesn't move, but does go through the Move Ship step. Also under Speed, Maneuver Tool and Overlapping. Although unhelpfully "Move" has a specific definition for squadrons (and, obviously, for shields).

Except not moving (executing a speed 0 maneuver) does count for overlapping obstacles. So when is moving not moving?

I think I'm ready to give up on this and leave it to individual TOs to sort out if it ever actually comes up.