The problem that I have with N-1s and the republic in general is as follows: What is the reason for me to bring an N-1, or arc, or V-19 so it can get shot, when I can just bring 7Bs and not get shot instead? I'm serious. I just cannot build for republic anymore because I've yet to see a list that justifies getting shot, when there is a choice to just... not get shot in the faction. Anikan + Obi-Wan with a stupid bid seems like Republic solved, so I'm not sure what the reason is to really mess with other ships in the faction. Is anyone else in this bind as well? Like, I just don't want to bring a bunch of dinky ships so they can get shot, when I can just bring two dials and not get shot (until I do).

They made Jedi too good; it would be like if one race horse has jet propulsion while all of the others just have hooves. Why did they make Jedi so good?

42 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

The problem that I have with N-1s and the republic in general is as follows: What is the reason for me to bring an N-1, or arc, or V-19 so it can get shot, when I can just bring 7Bs and not get shot instead? I'm serious. I just cannot build for republic anymore because I've yet to see a list that justifies getting shot, when there is a choice to just... not get shot in the faction. Anikan + Obi-Wan with a stupid bid seems like Republic solved, so I'm not sure what the reason is to really mess with other ships in the faction. Is anyone else in this bind as well? Like, I just don't want to bring a bunch of dinky ships so they can get shot, when I can just bring two dials and not get shot (until I do).

They made Jedi too good; it would be like if one race horse has jet propulsion while all of the others just have hooves. Why did they make Jedi so good?

I tend to agree. Either everything else is too expensive or the jedis are too cheap, but once you start putting upgrades onto an N-1 they start approaching a Jedi with Delta-7B, and the N-1s don’t have force so you might as well just fly a Delta. Torrents are meh and ARCs outside of Wolffe/Sinker are easy to take out over a few rounds. I have hopes for the upcoming Y-wing but it’ll probably be about the same as it’s rebel version. Maybe the faction is supposed to work the way it does for a reason...

34 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

The problem that I have with N-1s and the republic in general is as follows: What is the reason for me to bring an N-1, or arc, or V-19 so it can get shot, when I can just bring 7Bs and not get shot instead? I'm serious. I just cannot build for republic anymore because I've yet to see a list that justifies getting shot, when there is a choice to just... not get shot in the faction. Anikan + Obi-Wan with a stupid bid seems like Republic solved, so I'm not sure what the reason is to really mess with other ships in the faction. Is anyone else in this bind as well? Like, I just don't want to bring a bunch of dinky ships so they can get shot, when I can just bring two dials and not get shot (until I do).

They made Jedi too good; it would be like if one race horse has jet propulsion while all of the others just have hooves. Why did they make Jedi so good?

You się haven't faced a swarm yet, did you?

There's hardly "not getting shot" by 6 to 8 spread-out arcs. And not much arc-dodging is going on while one enemy ship sets up to block your 1s, another to block your Ks, so that the other 4 can set up their R1 shots. And then there's only so many Force charges you can hide behind of.

A healthy meta is a rock-paper-scissors composition. Jedi aces are strong, but vulnerable to swarms. Swarms are then vulnerable to Jousts who eradicate 2/3 ships a round. Which in turn are vulnerable to Aces, who manage to slip pass the killzone of their overlapping arcs.

Furthermore, look at these results:

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/890

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/870

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/843

All these events saw Jedi-less Republic lists make the top cut. In Jacksonville, the top was actually quite dominated by the Sinker Swarm.

9 minutes ago, pakirby said:

I tend to agree. Either everything else is too expensive or the jedis are too cheap, but once you start putting upgrades onto an N-1 they start approaching a Jedi with Delta-7B, and the N-1s don’t have force so you might as well just fly a Delta. Torrents are meh and ARCs outside of Wolffe/Sinker are easy to take out over a few rounds. I have hopes for the upcoming Y-wing but it’ll probably be about the same as it’s rebel version. Maybe the faction is supposed to work the way it does for a reason...

The cheapest 7B Jedi who see regular play is Mace, clocking in at 63 points. That's 21 points of upgrades to put on Ric, 22 on Anakin - the **** you upgrade these with? A decent set of upgrades sans torpedo puts them at 50-ish points. This is equivalent to naked Wolffe or absolutely naked Obi-Wan (2 short-ish of CLT).

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

They're assessing at range 3 or obstructed maybe?

It's ric they're assuming he zoom

Ric + Collision Detector is all you need. and drop Col-det if you need the points for 7B on a Jedi instead.

3 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

You się haven't faced a swarm yet, did you?

There's hardly "not getting shot" by 6 to 8 spread-out arcs. And not much arc-dodging is going on while one enemy ship sets up to block your 1s, another to block your Ks, so that the other 4 can set up their R1 shots. And then there's only so many Force charges you can hide behind of.

A healthy meta is a rock-paper-scissors composition. Jedi aces are strong, but vulnerable to swarms. Swarms are then vulnerable to Jousts who eradicate 2/3 ships a round. Which in turn are vulnerable to Aces, who manage to slip pass the killzone of their overlapping arcs.

Furthermore, look at these results:

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/890

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/870

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/843

All these events saw Jedi-less Republic lists make the top cut. In Jacksonville, the top was actually quite dominated by the Sinker Swarm.

Is sinker torrent swarm really that good? 😕

Finally gave these a try. I'm an instant Daredevil fan. Just feels like there's a lot of times it'd be better to do the hard boost and follow with a bank, than to do a bank boost and follow with a hard turn. One nice thing to note: if you have the board space, 3-hard + Daredevil boost will provide you with your Full Throttle Evade: Talon Roll will not.

Anyhow, this is what I flew: "And One!" -- a pun on N-1, as well as something of a nebulous Basketball reference. If a player is fouled when shooting, but still makes the shot, they can attempt a single free throw for an extra point. This seems like the kind of a list which likes to set screens, drive the lane, and try to power through opposing fouls. It also references the fact of an extra ship over the 2 Torrent + 2 Ace lists that Republic started with.

• Ric Olie (Daredevil, FCS, R2 Astromech) 51
• Anakin Skywalker (Daredevil, FCS, R2 Astromech) 50
• Gold Squadron Trooper (-) 25
• Gold Squadron Trooper (-) 25
• 104th ARC (R5 Astromech, Hull Upgrade) 49

So overall, two decent pocket aces, the two Torrent base of a lot of Jedi squads, and a flying tank of an ARC. I could see cutting FCS from Ric, but I like the rest. It's a fairly beefy list. The N-1s have a free Evade, plus regen, so they take a decent amount of time to die, and even then, they're only 50 points. Torrents are known to be tanky for their cost as well, with their Evade actions. The ARC also can last a while, willing to take actions to pitch damage cards.

15 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

The problem that I have with N-1s and the republic in general is as follows: What is the reason for me to bring an N-1, or arc, or V-19 so it can get shot, when I can just bring 7Bs and not get shot instead? I'm serious. I just cannot build for republic anymore because I've yet to see a list that justifies getting shot, when there is a choice to just... not get shot in the faction. Anikan + Obi-Wan with a stupid bid seems like Republic solved, so I'm not sure what the reason is to really mess with other ships in the faction. Is anyone else in this bind as well? Like, I just don't want to bring a bunch of dinky ships so they can get shot, when I can just bring two dials and not get shot (until I do).

They made Jedi too good; it would be like if one race horse has jet propulsion while all of the others just have hooves. Why did they make Jedi so good?

I mean, if you can pull it off, good for you. I can't really pull it off. If I put in the practice time to be as skilled with Guri as Phil GC, I don't see that there's any reason to take a ship other than Guri. But there's nowhere near enough time in my life for me to even attempt it, and I probably couldn't pull it off to my own satisfaction.

Likewise Ani-Obi. They've got a lot of tools for being out of arc always, if someone is able to use them. But it's OK if someone isn't able to make a go of it, because all the non-Jedi Republic ships are EXCEPTIONALLY good at getting shot at.

• Torrents are 25 points that are IMPOSSIBLE to kill in a single shot, even at Range 1, barring a truly horrific string of crits. Meanwhile, if they take an Evade action, they only need a to roll a single arrow to survive two 3-hit attacks at Range 2 or 3. They've got a greater than 70% chance to live through three double-modded 3-dice attacks. Not necessarily super impressive, other than the fact that they're a mere 25 points.
• ARCs get hit easily, but they've got a lot of health. I was playing at a tournament a month back with someone flying Wolffe with R5 and Hull Upgrade, and that's an upgrade combo that might be worth stealing on any ARC. If it doesn't get burned down, it's almost like a 12 health ship.
• N-1 have the Full Throttle Evade result, and can pack a fairly cheap 4-point R2 Astromech. Since their playing style is rather boom-and-zoom, they work really well with regen, and it can just take a while to make actual progress into them. Meanwhile, a decently-loaded Ric Olie or baby-Anakin only costs like 50 points.

The amount of effort it takes to kill Republic stuff often just isn't worth the points pay-off in the end. It's like a quagmire. Any time invested in attacking these is trading-down, and the rest of your list is making more progress than your opponent is.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is sinker torrent swarm really that good? 😕

Uh

Yeah.

It's probably The Republic's best list dude.

On 7/27/2019 at 3:26 AM, thespaceinvader said:

R3 fcs is a solid loadout for him but regen is how you win tourneys.

I'm going to back this up with a new concept for the community:

Tournament Upgrades

VS

Game Upgrades

________

Cards like crack shot, predator, Heroic, Trick Shot and Brilliant Evasion are more in the Tournament Upgrade category; you often don't trigger them in every game. In 6 games of swiss, these kinds of cards might trigger in half of your games. (we're looking at only a single ship, not spamming across your whole squad)

///

Cards like R2 astro (Regen), R4 astro, Juke and Adv. Optics are going to likely trigger at least once every game. ( ie. Game Upgrades ), and indicate more more specific tactical approach for that ship.

2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Uh

Yeah.

It's probably The Republic's best list dude.

Really? How come?

Srsly I find the clones very grindy and easy to ps kill

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Really? How come?

Srsly I find the clones very grindy and easy to ps kill

It's a swarm that has more health than a tie swarm, and can spread out more than them too. Also people dont' know how to deal with swarms.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Really? How come?

Srsly I find the clones very grindy and easy to ps kill

14 red dice (5 re-rolled, all focused), 10 green dice, 33 hull, 6 shields.

That's how, I guess. A single torrent can usually take 3 shots before going down. Or two really good shots.

Congratulation, here's your 25 points for your troubles, now get ready to be thrown in the face with a sack of reds at Ini2.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Really? How come?

Srsly I find the clones very grindy and easy to ps kill

Right now, it's a combination of a couple things.

The swarm itself is good. The prototypical Sinker swarm is two 3 dice attacks and four 2 dice attacks. Each attack will have a reroll (except on Sinker) and probably a focus.

Next comes the fact that the force multiplier, Sinker, is more durable than Howlie backed by Iden. They'll both take about five focused 3 dice attacks, except Howl has a higher chance of dying sooner. 5% of the time, she'll die in two attacks. With the shield upgrade on Sinker, it'll take almost 6 shots and make it so it's less than 1% chance of dying in 3 shots, whereas Howl dies in 3 shots about 25% of the time.

Then, each torrent will take around four focused 3 dice attacks to pop as well.

Now, I posit that the biggest reason it does so well, right now, is because a lot of people haven't realized that you won't PS kill enough if you joust it at all.

Secondly, gas clouds help these guys a lot. They don't care about losing the action by flying through them.

Thirdly, you pretty much are resigned to the fact that you'll be losing a ship. You basically have to have a sacrificial lamb.

Lastly, I think the target priority is wrong. I believe everyone wants to take out Sinker first, when instead you should be playing cagey and popping torrents. The torrents are what makes it a nightmare; they are some of the best blockers in the game. You also gotta force them to fly stupid: Sinker's ability requires side arc, so Sinker is going to be doing banks for the most part. But the torrents will be hard turning often. The best players will give up Sinker's attack if it means multiple ships have that reroll.

1 hour ago, SavouryRain said:

Right now, it's a combination of a couple things.

The swarm itself is good. The prototypical Sinker swarm is two 3 dice attacks and four 2 dice attacks. Each attack will have a reroll (except on Sinker) and probably a focus.

Next comes the fact that the force multiplier, Sinker, is more durable than Howlie backed by Iden. They'll both take about five focused 3 dice attacks, except Howl has a higher chance of dying sooner. 5% of the time, she'll die in two attacks. With the shield upgrade on Sinker, it'll take almost 6 shots and make it so it's less than 1% chance of dying in 3 shots, whereas Howl dies in 3 shots about 25% of the time.

Then, each torrent will take around four focused 3 dice attacks to pop as well.

Now, I posit that the biggest reason it does so well, right now, is because a lot of people haven't realized that you won't PS kill enough if you joust it at all.

Secondly, gas clouds help these guys a lot. They don't care about losing the action by flying through them.

Thirdly, you pretty much are resigned to the fact that you'll be losing a ship. You basically have to have a sacrificial lamb.

Lastly, I think the target priority is wrong. I believe everyone wants to take out Sinker first, when instead you should be playing cagey and popping torrents. The torrents are what makes it a nightmare; they are some of the best blockers in the game. You also gotta force them to fly stupid: Sinker's ability requires side arc, so Sinker is going to be doing banks for the most part. But the torrents will be hard turning often. The best players will give up Sinker's attack if it means multiple ships have that reroll.

And see, here's the thing about that for me.

I super do not mind losing their action. If they block, that's another target that can't shoot them, and they can still get that Sinker reroll.

You have to treat every V-19 as a disposable bum. Make sure to get them their shots, but know that they just will not survive... and that's okay. Because, see, by the time Sinker dies? (and he will!)

Those Torrents can play around with everything they want, everything's softened up super hard.

14 hours ago, SavouryRain said:

Lastly, I think the target priority is wrong. I believe everyone wants to take out Sinker first, when instead you should be playing cagey and popping torrents.

I see people make this mistake all the time when playing against swarms of any variety. Yes, killing the force multiplier first is ideal, but your opponent isn't going to let you have it and you'll lose the game chasing it.

The first objective when fighting a swarm of any variety is not to die. You take what shots come your way, against whoever happens to be in arc, while achieving that objective. Eventually your damage will stack up enough to kill something, meaning there are now less arcs to dodge, so you can push for the next kill and make it easier again to get the next one. Repeat until you run of things to kill.

7 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

And see, here's the thing about that for me.

I super do not mind losing their action. If they block, that's another target that can't shoot them, and they can still get that Sinker reroll.

You have to treat every V-19 as a disposable bum. Make sure to get them their shots, but know that they just will not survive... and that's okay. Because, see, by the time Sinker dies? (and he will!)

Those Torrents can play around with everything they want, everything's softened up super hard.

When I say fly stupid, I mean more like get them away from Sinker by making them turn and chase and the like.

6 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I see people make this mistake all the time when playing against swarms of any variety. Yes, killing the force multiplier first is ideal, but your opponent isn't going to let you have it and you'll lose the game chasing it.

The first objective when fighting a swarm of any variety is not to die. You take what shots come your way, against whoever happens to be in arc, while achieving that objective. Eventually your damage will stack up enough to kill something, meaning there are now less arcs to dodge, so you can push for the next kill and make it easier again to get the best one. Repeat until you run of things to kill.

And the real challenge, even for those who know that, is to actually make it in time. Lost all my tournament game against tie-swarm because, as much as the game was going my way and I was totally flanking the whole swarm with Kylo and was shooting free shot into howlrunner's back, by the time the game ends, I had lost something and couldn't make enough points to grab the win. Swarm are also really good because of the whole tourney setup with limited time.

1 hour ago, SavouryRain said:

When I say fly stupid, I mean more like get them away from Sinker by making them turn and chase and the like.

Aah! Fair. But yeah they can afford to lose their actions no problem

So after a bunch more games with Ric this time with R2-C4, Daredevil, & Collision Detector I have to say I like Daredevil more than Juke. I don't believe Daredevil all of a sudden gives Ric the ability to be an amazing knife fighter and I still wouldn't consider him to be an ace. I feel like he still wants to be the flanker and go as fast as possible to ( try ) and get a double bonus from his pilot/ship abilities otherwise his 2/2/3/2 stat line looks pedestrian. But Daredevil definitely gives him a lot more time on target and doing a 3-turn into a 1-turn boost feels better than a 3 tallon roll. This is probably because once the 3 tallon is dialed up I am all in on it and am getting that stress whether I finish the maneuver or not and I don't get the evade even if I do complete it whereas with Daredevil I can have the effectively the same outcome (except 3 turn into 1 turn boost is basically a stretched out 1 tallon) or I can do a bank boost or straight boost to line him up better for future turns, or take a different action if it turns out that the 3-turn was the better choice in the first place.

Collision Detector is nice, but feels quite expensive and I feel is there more for when I make a mistake and Ric ends up right in front of a rock or clips a rock while doing a maneuver. But that is probably because I am looking at those 2 charges and am not wanting to be proactive with it and use it to put Ric in some really funky spots with a boost or barrel roll.

R2-C4 is interesting and gives him more offensive firepower but becomes an interesting decision as to when to use it. With his more time on target from Daredevil it feels like he will want to use R2-C4 more often but it feels a bit at odds with how Ric wants to fly. The 2 green dice base makes him pretty squishy if he isn't at range 3 or getting his third green. On only 5 life it feels like he really wants to be taking as few shots as possible (duh, like every ship in the game) or wants R2 Astromech. The fact that he is I5 is nice because he will be moving after most other ships and can be put in a spot where he might not be taking any shots. Maybe R2-C4 really shines when Ric has taken a boost/barrel roll or target lock and not focus.

In the current 3-ship list I am flying him in I almost am always trying to get him out of arc because he is so much squishier than the two Jedi I am flying him with.

Then all of this kind of goes out the window when I start looking at the cost and what I get. For comparison, for 50 points I can get Ric with Daredevil, and R2-C4 OR I can have Mace with CLT and R4 OR Plo with CLT and R4. So I can try and make Ric work at 50ish points or I can have Mace or Plo, then I just feel bad because adding a third Jedi to a list that already includes Anakin and Obi-Wan just feels like cheating.

I like throwing plasma torps on him. Then if you do mess up and can't get your pilot ability active, you're still throwing three dice at any range.

On 7/30/2019 at 4:12 PM, ThinkingB said:

The problem that I have with N-1s and the republic in general is as follows: What is the reason for me to bring an N-1, or arc, or V-19 so it can get shot, when I can just bring 7Bs and not get shot instead? I'm serious. I just cannot build for republic anymore because I've yet to see a list that justifies getting shot, when there is a choice to just... not get shot in the faction. Anikan + Obi-Wan with a stupid bid seems like Republic solved, so I'm not sure what the reason is to really mess with other ships in the faction. Is anyone else in this bind as well? Like, I just don't want to bring a bunch of dinky ships so they can get shot, when I can just bring two dials and not get shot (until I do).

They made Jedi too good; it would be like if one race horse has jet propulsion while all of the others just have hooves. Why did they make Jedi so good?

It is all a matter of perspective of the conduct of the Clone Wars. I tend to think that clones were used like soldiers in the American Civil War or World War I. Just throw large numbers of troops at a problem and hope they achieve a breakthrough and this was the reason for large numbers of casualties in both wars. With the Clone Wars, the Grand Army of the Republic had millions if not billions of clone soldiers at the Republic's command. However, the Republic had very little experience in waging a large-scale galactic war and the Jedi leaders only had experience in small-scale peace keeping missions. This means a lot of clone soldiers are going to die in combat. The reason the clone soldiers didn't do their own Order 66 was 1) they were designed to follow orders without question, 2) unlike the American Civil War and World War I, the Jedi generals led from the front instead of the rear thereby sharing the risks and inspiring the troops, and 3) like soldiers from all armies from all wars, the clone soldiers didn't want to let their brothers down even if it meant their deaths. Add all this up and it means Republic pilots are more willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the mission. If some V-19s or ARC-170s get shot and probably die then its okay if their Jedi leaders get into position to strike and destroy their opponents.

Like the Republic, the Naboo Defense forces were likewise inexperienced in large-scale combat. The Naboo pilots were only skilled in defending against pirate attacks, which are probably hit and run strikes. In the Phantom Menace fighting the Separatists' droid fighters would be a different type of combat than interdicting pirate attacks. This also means a lot of N-1s are going to get shot at and probably die although Ric Olie seems to be able to survive quite a lot of rounds of combat.