On 8/13/2019 at 2:42 PM, syrath said:

Jyn Erso and the Pathfinders have got a boost with the RRG, I don't think it will be enough to sway the haters, but some people may find it more palatable, Danger Sense now works in melee.

Edit not quite now but as of 1.5

ha ha ha

Pathfinders get shot and wiped out way before they ever get close to melee. I've had Jyn die to 2 stormtrooper salvos while having heavy cover.

Don't kid yourself. White dice will fail you.

7 hours ago, buckero0 said:

ha ha ha

Pathfinders get shot and wiped out way before they ever get close to melee. I've had Jyn die to 2 stormtrooper salvos while having heavy cover.

Don't kid yourself. White dice will fail usually balances out you.

I've also had her spend an entire game weathering constant Atst and tank fire (the latter she even took out with the aid of a well placed z6 unit). Yes white dice are very swingy but in the majority of games I've played her as long as you make sure to have cover and dodges usually balances out.

58 minutes ago, syrath said:

I've also had her spend an entire game weathering constant Atst and tank fire (the latter she even took out with the aid of a well placed z6 unit). Yes white dice are very swingy but in the majority of games I've played her as long as you make sure to have cover and dodges usually balances out.

Which essentially means the ability is not very good for a tournament setup if you want to use her to play the mission. You won't be able to pull that of 3 to 5 times in a row.

Her defence is a nice to have in certain situations, but it is by far not reliable enought when you have to make a move to swing the mission.

For her pricetag, you might as well bring another piece instead of her that just does what it does from turn 1 no matter what.

1 hour ago, M.Mustermann said:

Which essentially means the ability is not very good for a tournament setup if you want to use her to play the mission. You won't be able to pull that of 3 to 5 times in a row.

Her defence is a nice to have in certain situations, but it is by far not reliable enought when you have to make a move to swing the mission.

For her pricetag, you might as well bring another piece instead of her that just does what it does from turn 1 no matter what.

I've seen that sort of consistency out of those dice game after game, except one, first time I used her I stupidly used her infiltrate to put her unsupported up near the enemy instead of playing for objective advantage and she was wiped from the board, everygame since I maybe get a single bad roll where I may lose 2 wounds from one attack. At most I usually get 1.

10 minutes ago, syrath said:

I've seen that sort of consistency out of those dice game after game, except one, first time I used her I stupidly used her infiltrate to put her unsupported up near the enemy instead of playing for objective advantage and she was wiped from the board, everygame since I maybe get a single bad roll where I may lose 2 wounds from one attack. At most I usually get 1.

Are there any unit(s) in the spectrum of 130 to 160 points that do not do their job if they get average rolls AND support from other units? You almost get Luke or 2 Z6 squads with an officer upgrade for that. Those units usually perform more constistently, especially when they get the support Jyn needs do her thing.

It might be that I just dont have enough experience with her. I have played with her in three tournament games and played against her in one. In two of these games, she got 6 wounds from a single shot (!) of Fleet Troopers that used a back to back activation. When I lost her to Fleets, she even had heavy cover plus 4 suppression tokens she had left from the turns before.

In the third game, she more or less did her thing, but nothing that most other commanders could not have done just as good.

In the fourth game, she stuck around until the end, shot each turn and moved to an objective late game. But even in this situation, two more trooper units would have done a much better job doing the exact same thing.

9 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

Are there any unit(s) in the spectrum of 130 to 160 points that do not do their job if they get average rolls AND support from other units? You almost get Luke or 2 Z6 squads with an officer upgrade for that. Those units usually perform more constistently, especially when they get the support Jyn needs do her thing.

It might be that I just dont have enough experience with her. I have played with her in three tournament games and played against her in one. In two of these games, she got 6 wounds from a single shot (!) of Fleet Troopers that used a back to back activation. When I lost her to Fleets, she even had heavy cover plus 4 suppression tokens she had left from the turns before.

In the third game, she more or less did her thing, but nothing that most other commanders could not have done just as good.

In the fourth game, she stuck around until the end, shot each turn and moved to an objective late game. But even in this situation, two more trooper units would have done a much better job doing the exact same thing.

In that situation almost every white save unit would die including Han (who rolls less white dice with a lower ceiling) and Chewie probably as well. Han is a similar price. Just for reference on that turn if want to be triggering rebellious so that I can get in a double 4 black attack , or shoot them or move out of range you they look like they are going to get near. No rebel unit survives being hung out to dry with no support, including Luke.

57 minutes ago, syrath said:

In that situation almost every white save unit would die including Han (who rolls less white dice with a lower ceiling) and Chewie probably as well. Han is a similar price. Just for reference on that turn if want to be triggering rebellious so that I can get in a double 4 black attack , or shoot them or move out of range you they look like they are going to get near. No rebel unit survives being hung out to dry with no support, including Luke.

Of course every unit pops when it gets shot with a huge attack pool and gets unlucky dice. All other comparable commanders are cheaper and have better command cards though. They do their thing even if they do not play the mission. Jyns is more expensive, her command cards are worse and her damage output is abysmal.

In that situation, Rebellious was not an option by the way. The Fleets were just out of range 2 at the start of the turn. Even if they would have been in charge distance, charging her right into the enemy army would at best delayed her death for a few activations. A double attack with 4 black dice is pretty pathetic for 130 to 150 points. Jyn is fine as long as everything goes your way in the command phase. As soon as you don't get priority in an important turn it can get very risky. She is a less than mediocre supporter, her damage output is extremly bad, her abilities to play the mission are situational and unreliable. She simply does not pull her weight for almost 20% of your points.

6 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

Of course every unit pops when it gets shot with a huge attack pool and gets unlucky dice. All other comparable commanders are cheaper and have better command cards though. They do their thing even if they do not play the mission. Jyns is more expensive, her command cards are worse and her damage output is abysmal.

In that situation, Rebellious was not an option by the way. The Fleets were just out of range 2 at the start of the turn. Even if they would have been in charge distance, charging her right into the enemy army would at best delayed her death for a few activations. A double attack with 4 black dice is pretty pathetic for 130 to 150 points. Jyn is fine as long as everything goes your way in the command phase. As soon as you don't get priority in an important turn it can get very risky. She is a less than mediocre supporter, her damage output is extremly bad, her abilities to play the mission are situational and unreliable. She simply does not pull her weight for almost 20% of your points.

Rebellious is also defensive if the unit activated on the 2nd round you can move away. Fleets that close to any commander should be facing suppression also. It is possible to get caught out. Yes, and in those circumstances it's hard to not to be blasted. The Ops point is still valid, though, it is quite possible none of us have figured out how to play her. I do very well with her, but I can't say she is better than playing with any other commander, because my opponents are a small amount of people that being said I've played her about 10-12 times now, she died twice. Once due to bad luck on the white rolls, the other was because I was forced to clamber off a building to try and save her from an all out AT ST blast a game I would have won because I had a single pathfinder model and Jyn sitting on the scoring objective and after she took out the tank I clambered both down the objective terrain figuring one would survive rather than risk losing both from the 2 ST units the AT ST that had shot at both all gane. I rolled a block and a surge and due to a misplayed rule lost both thereby losing the game when I was up on points because is just taken out the tank. IE I'd have won that one if done correctly. I'd have gone 2-1 at my RPQ had I not been tired and misplayed the rule. This would have won on the command card - Complete the Mission.

Just for info the other person that beat me at The RPQ went on to win it , and was a far better player than me by far

8 hours ago, syrath said:

Rebellious is also defensive if the unit activated on the 2nd round you can move away. Fleets that close to any commander should be facing suppression also. It is possible to get caught out. Yes, and in those circumstances it's hard to not to be blasted. The Ops point is still valid, though, it is quite possible none of us have figured out how to play her. I do very well with her, but I can't say she is better than playing with any other commander, because my opponents are a small amount of people that being said I've played her about 10-12 times now, she died twice. Once due to bad luck on the white rolls, the other was because I was forced to clamber off a building to try and save her from an all out AT ST blast a game I would have won because I had a single pathfinder model and Jyn sitting on the scoring objective and after she took out the tank I clambered both down the objective terrain figuring one would survive rather than risk losing both from the 2 ST units the AT ST that had shot at both all gane. I rolled a block and a surge and due to a misplayed rule lost both thereby losing the game when I was up on points because is just taken out the tank. IE I'd have won that one if done correctly. I'd have gone 2-1 at my RPQ had I not been tired and misplayed the rule. This would have won on the command card - Complete the Mission.

Just for info the other person that beat me at The RPQ went on to win it , and was a far better player than me by far

Congratulations, but I still dont think Jyn is a good cornerstone for a tournament list. It only means it is possible to win in spite of the extra points you pay for unreliable or situational gimmicks. The package is just not priced right, and she still needs another commander. Her tricks are unreliable vs very good opponents. I am pretty sure it is possible to make her survive almost every game, but that still does not mean she will contribute enough to the objective to justify her premium points. At the end of the day, she is still just one unit leader when it comes to counting victory tokens. She wont do much damage. Both her defence and her command cards only have an effect on the mission when you outplay your opponent- which is the case for all the cheaper and/or more self-consistent support commanders as well.

I really like to bring experimental and unusual lists even to bigger events, but I think we should call a spade a spade. She is definetly not a forgiving or save choice. If you do bring her, your strategy vs. a lot of bad matchups, risky situations and good opponents is basically hope.

13 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

Congratulations, but I still dont think Jyn is a good cornerstone for a tournament list. It only means it is possible to win in spite of the extra points you pay for unreliable or situational gimmicks. The package is just not priced right, and she still needs another commander. Her tricks are unreliable vs very good opponents. I am pretty sure it is possible to make her survive almost every game, but that still does not mean she will contribute enough to the objective to justify her premium points. At the end of the day, she is still just one unit leader when it comes to counting victory tokens. She wont do much damage. Both her defence and her command cards only have an effect on the mission when you outplay your opponent- which is the case for all the cheaper and/or more self-consistent support commanders as well.

I really like to bring experimental and unusual lists even to bigger events, but I think we should call a spade a spade. She is definetly not a forgiving or save choice. If you do bring her, your strategy vs. a lot of bad matchups, risky situations and good opponents is basically hope.

There is no denying she is unforgiving. Misplay her and you coukd lose the game , sometimes that's the fun, learning how not to misplay her. I play her often as a lone commander although I'm looking more recently to play her with Sabine, although that is a lot of points to put down on two figures. I think that in a meta where suppression becomes more of an issue her value cannot be underestimated I don't find her command cards lacklustre, in fact id say her one pip is better than wonder boy Luke , who gives you a second melee attack that is often just overkill in most games unless you outplayed another Luke or managed to get a go last/ go first on Vader. More often than not you get to shoot your gun for your second attack so the extra attack is no better than the extra attack Sabine or Han get every turn w/o a command card.

The 2 pip is perhaps more situational, but let's compare it with Leia. Leia gives two units a speed one move. Jyn gains inspire 2 ( remember she has one more courage here as well meaning it's 2 more suppression before a unit panics). So let's say Leia gives out those moves and gives out 2 dodges to those units. So for one of Leia 's actions you get get 2 Dodge actions and 2 partial moves ( which is great on Tauntauns I'll admit)

Jyn gives out two orders the same as Leia, takes quick thinking as an action which gets herself and the teamworked unit a dodge and an aim token , so 4 full actions for the cost of one (or 6 if you have Han and Chewbacca as companions). So in action economy at this point Jyn is better with her 2 pip in action economy. Now because of teamwork your ideal target should be a unit with nimble because now any time either unit is attacked the other unit gets an extra dodge token while it/she recycles their own giving the potential for stacking multiple dodge tokens (could be fun to teamwork a Tauntaun)

Compared with Luke's 2 pip who gives out 2 Dodge tokens. No competition.

Moving into the three pips.

Luke gets to remove a single suppression token for each unit range 1-3 . Okay this is okay but not when heavy suppression is in game as many units will still be suppressed. Jyn gets to have 3 units that can add suppression whenever they activate, if that is advantageous, remove a suppression end of activation if that is advantageous, and all 3 units can ignore suppression and even stop panicking for that turn completely meaning that all three are guaranteed 2 actions that turn. How is that any worse than Skywalker 's 3 pip. Luke's card has the ability to get a lot of units out of minor suppression, but those units in the thick of things may not. Jyns gets those in the thick of things to be able to work without question when it comes to morale but doesn't help those that are perhaps less key remember if you have coordinate or HQ uplink those units also benefit. I'd say they are both tied on this one.

Leia's 3 pip let's you chain two activations. Situationally good but no more so than either of the above.

So I don't see how her command cards are worse. In many situations they are better.

a situation FFG had covered by their wording re the 2 pip command card, had me originally thinking. I was interested in some theory crafting with veterans . It would have been hilarious if Trust Goes Both Ways wasn't worded that teamwork only goes to those Jyn gave an order too otherwise you could set up a Veteran /m2 Blaster line (*3) with each unit giving down a dodge to the next along.

Example Jyn takes order and gives order to Sabine. HQ uplink on a veteran unit gives order (giving dodge to itself. Jyn and Sabine). Order goes to mk2 blaster with comms relay. Order goes to Vet 2 unit dodge goes to Vet 1 , Sabine and Jyn, and an order goes to mK2 2 with comms relay . Which passes order to Vet 3 , gaining an order and a dodge passing the dodge to Vet 2, vet 1 , Sabine and Jyn and passing an order to mk2 blaster no 3. Who comms relays to a Tauntaun. Jyn goes first and activated quick thinking giving 3 veterans a tauntaun Sabine and herself an aim and another dodge. Then the tauntaun moves twice and gives everyone two more dodges ,. Anyone shoots Sabine or Jyn and if they spend a dodge token then all of them get another dodge token. - shame it doesn't work that way but hey it would be hilarious it did , i'd run out of dodge tokens really early in that exchange.

As I said though FFG had that covered as the cards like HQ uplink it isn't the commander giving the order..

Now moving into your other claim about weapon dmg

Against Han her dmg is higher 2 red vs 2 red and white both have sharpshooter 1

Against Leia her DMG is higher when shooting into no cover, higher when shooting into light cover and equal when shooting into heavy cover (coming to the same average result due to rolling 2 red and a white Vs three black)

Against Luke she gets higher DMG regardless of the situation

Pierce she is equal to Leia so they are the same So she is better than Leia with her range 2 weapon hands down or equal into heavy cover

Han and Luke have pierce 2 against Jyns pierce 1 but only Han has Sharpshooter. So in no cover Jyn does more DMG than both due to higher DMG rolls but may lose one DMG in comparison due to saves. But in light cover luke loses 1 dmg whereas Jyn does not. So anything other than no cover shots against Luke Jyn wins out here. finally light cover doesn't bother Jyn or Han so Han gets his 2DMG whereas Jyn gets less but against heavy cover her 3 chances of getting a crit give her a better chance of landing a hit than Han does.

So in no cover Jyn is better in light cover Han is best with Jyn second and in heavy cover Leia and Jyn are equal first even accounting for pierce.

Now in the range 3 category

Jyn is the only one who can shoot

In melee Luke is clearly the best Jyn is second best. I don't think we can argue on that

Onto defense

Against a on "above average p" 5 hit attack

Luke is better due to his red dice , everyone else is equal. However as you ramp up the suppression Jyn is on par with Luke when getting to 3 suppression, albeit not counting his surge to hit, but at 4 she is actually better than Luke or similar to him with surge to block.

In melee it works out quite weird . Against 1 hit Luke is the best defender, but when Jyn has 1 suppression she is his equal. With more suppression she is better

Against 2 hits she is worse with 1 suppression, equal with 2 better with 3 or 4

Against 3 hits she is worse with 1 or 2 equal with 3, but better with 4 (see a pattern here)

Against 4 hits she is worse with 1 2 or 3 equal with 4.

So she tanks similar or better to Luke in melee as long as the hits dont get higher than her suppression. Obviously with only one suppression is better than the other commanders

Given the above I don't see how her DMG is lacklustre since it's the same or better lacklustre DMG that the other commanders give out except when Han shoots into light cover (because he has both sharpshooter 1 and pierce 2, however add a dodge into that and the DMG swings back to Jyn)

3 hours ago, syrath said:

Now moving into your other claim about weapon dmg

Against Han her dmg is higher 2 red vs 2 red and white both have sharpshooter 1

Against Leia her DMG is higher when shooting into no cover, higher when shooting into light cover and equal when shooting into heavy cover (coming to the same average result due to rolling 2 red and a white Vs three black)

Against Luke she gets higher DMG regardless of the situation

Pierce she is equal to Leia so they are the same So she is better than Leia with her range 2 weapon hands down or equal into heavy cover

Han and Luke have pierce 2 against Jyns pierce 1 but only Han has Sharpshooter. So in no cover Jyn does more DMG than both due to higher DMG rolls but may lose one DMG in comparison due to saves. But in light cover luke loses 1 dmg whereas Jyn does not. So anything other than no cover shots against Luke Jyn wins out here. finally light cover doesn't bother Jyn or Han so Han gets his 2DMG whereas Jyn gets less but against heavy cover her 3 chances of getting a crit give her a better chance of landing a hit than Han does.

So in no cover Jyn is better in light cover Han is best with Jyn second and in heavy cover Leia and Jyn are equal first even accounting for pierce.

Now in the range 3 category

Jyn is the only one who can shoot

In melee Luke is clearly the best Jyn is second best. I don't think we can argue on that

Onto defense

Against a on "above average p" 5 hit attack

Luke is better due to his red dice , everyone else is equal. However as you ramp up the suppression Jyn is on par with Luke when getting to 3 suppression, albeit not counting his surge to hit, but at 4 she is actually better than Luke or similar to him with surge to block.

In melee it works out quite weird . Against 1 hit Luke is the best defender, but when Jyn has 1 suppression she is his equal. With more suppression she is better

Against 2 hits she is worse with 1 suppression, equal with 2 better with 3 or 4

Against 3 hits she is worse with 1 or 2 equal with 3, but better with 4 (see a pattern here)

Against 4 hits she is worse with 1 2 or 3 equal with 4.

So she tanks similar or better to Luke in melee as long as the hits dont get higher than her suppression. Obviously with only one suppression is better than the other commanders

Given the above I don't see how her DMG is lacklustre since it's the same or better lacklustre DMG that the other commanders give out except when Han shoots into light cover (because he has both sharpshooter 1 and pierce 2, however add a dodge into that and the DMG swings back to Jyn)

Some of this is accurate, but some of this seems disingenuous to me. Comparing her ranged damage favorably to Luke's is a bit silly, since nobody uses Luke to shoot. He will be in Melee, and he will wreck face there as you note.

Claiming her damage output at range is similar to Han's also seems silly to me--he has pierce 2 and gunslinger, so he will be shooting twice, and every hit he lands is guaranteed to get through. Each individual attack is better than hers imo (due to pierce 2), and he gets two attacks, so it is no contest overall.

Also, her damage shooting into cover is not great compared to Leia on a per-point basis since Leia has sharpshooter 2 and is so much cheaper.

Finally, Luke's defensive odds per die is actually not the best unless he has a dodge token. Han's reroll odds make his defense the best one a per-die basis statistically speaking.

Overall, Jyn is definitely not impressive in the least in the damage category, and her tankiness is too limited by fickle white dice to be of much use in my experience.

1 hour ago, Jedhead said:

Some of this is accurate, but some of this seems disingenuous to me. Comparing her ranged damage favorably to Luke's is a bit silly, since nobody uses Luke to shoot. He will be in Melee, and he will wreck face there as you note.

Claiming her damage output at range is similar to Han's also seems silly to me--he has pierce 2 and gunslinger, so he will be shooting twice, and every hit he lands is guaranteed to get through. Each individual attack is better than hers imo (due to pierce 2), and he gets two attacks, so it is no contest overall.

Also, her damage shooting into cover is not great compared to Leia on a per-point basis since Leia has sharpshooter 2 and is so much cheaper.

Finally, Luke's defensive odds per die is actually not the best unless he has a dodge token. Han's reroll odds make his defense the best one a per-die basis statistically speaking.

Overall, Jyn is definitely not impressive in the least in the damage category, and her tankiness is too limited by fickle white dice to be of much use in my experience.

I do point out gunslinger and it needs two targets and I've seen many people shoot with Luke perhaps due to lack of target, usually due to Son of Skywalker , as for Hans Pierce 2 he rolls 2 red

Damage = 5 hits 2 crits each dice for 7/8 hits per dice rolled or 14/8 hits= 1.750 average. Or .875 into heavy cover or Light/cover dodge . Pierce 2 means that DMG gets through?

Jyns damage = 5 hits 2 crit each dice for red and 1 hit 2 crit for each white or 17/8 = 2.125 shooting so no cover/dodge means she loses based on save but due to crits .375 instead of 0.250 will always get through dodge and cover. Her pierce 1 means that 1 dmg also gets through on any that hit. So heavy cover or light cover/dodge 0.250 of hans rolls hit usually for 1 dmg (1/16 of all hits will be doubke) however Jyn has 3/8 chance of 1 crit (3/32 for two crits) and (3/128 chance of 3 crits) for a total 63/128 chance of at least 1 hit into heavy cover or light cover dodge. Han has only 40/128 chance of getting at least one hit in the same circumstances. of those Han has 8 doubles and 32 single hits all of which is guaranteed damage except where it's immune:pierce, impervious or danger sense, for the same shot Jyn gets 48 singles 12 doubles and 3 triples crits. All of which are guaranteed 1 hit this already exceeds Hans damage output even counting that they save every save made against Jyns shots since 63 wounds get through compared with 48 , if it's white :surge save 12/9 or 1.67 of the 12 doubles will save for another 10.33 on the double crit and if it's red . No surge then 9 wounds get through on the doubles so not even counting the times where the three hits stick so hits save its now 74 vs 48 , or 72 vs 48 hits over 128 shots into heavy cover or light cover dodge, for a 33% DMG increase over Han.

NOte that only Han is better than Jyn at range and only on light or no cover shots. Luke is only better than her on no cover/dodge Yes Han has gunslinger, but again im only quoting dmg against a single target however Han sucks in melee in comparison with Jyn and Jyn is close to Luke in melee.

So my comment still stands she is better at range than all of them at range except Han and even against Han she is still better at firing into Heavy cover or Light cover dodge (ie most of your shots of your opponent does their job right). Even no cover shots are better on white dice :surge and even then against Red dice defense she is only 16% or so behind Han. So the situations Han does better than Jyn are No cover red save, or light cover period.

Summing up

pros - the only range 3 capable commander the rebels have

the best ranged combatant commander at range 2 against a single target except for when compared with Luke Han against a target in no cover with no dodge or Han into Light cover with no dodge

The second best melee commander

the least defensive until suppression kicks in where she tanks up to be equal to Luke with a dodge at 4 and equal or better than Luke in melee as long as the Suppression is equal to or better than number of wounds caused (4 wounds or more she is just second best). Fringe case 1 suppression she is still (just) second to Han on ranged defense.

Edit that last comment is incorrect Luke is still first Han is second and Jyn third on ranged defense until she hits 2 suppression. I said she is second to Han but technically should have said worse than Han since Luke is better than Han in some situations but both better than Jyn until she hits 2 suppression

My Jyn Erso T-47 list is coming to a store near you. Complete with a manifesto against minmaxing.

Then again if I do that, I’m still letting the minmaxers pick my list. Nevermind.

I've had good success with her. When used with pathfinders, they are great at capturing objectives. Especially claim the supplies - can deploy next the he center supplies and grab them turn 1. I use the pathfinders to grab and move, and give them a dodge via Trust Goes Both Ways.

Complete the Mission is also amazing, especially late game.

I think Jyn has a bigger learning curve (as do pathfinders) which is why they are often overlooked, but both units great once it clicks how to use them.

On 8/13/2019 at 10:16 PM, TauntaunScout said:

It's entirely plausible that my planned future Hoth list of Jyn, Wookies, and 3 squads of tauntauns, will be a good close combat army due the sheer number of cc units I'm taking. With Veterans and Mk II blasters filling up my Corps requirements and providing ranged attack balance.

First I have to actually buy Jyn and Wookies though, which is a ways off.

Just an observation, I know you play lists that are more thematic than competitive, but doesn't the lack of "scoring" units hurt a bit here, there are some objectives normal trooper units are needed and emplacment and creature units don't cut it on those. So only 2 normal troopers can score on those objectives.

2 hours ago, syrath said:

emplacment and creature units don't cut it on those.

News to me. Personally I think they shouldn’t let heroes score either if that’s the case. Or strike teams.

It may only be to claim objectives that they would be seriously hampered but I think that objective would likely be an auto loss for you