(Sorry, long post, bold text and last paragraph for the TL;DR)

So before I start this, let me just say I have been for the last year one of the staunchest defenders of the Hyperspace Format, and its ill-fated predecessor Second Edition Format.

Reasons I liked Hyperspace were myriad, and here's kind of the big three:

1.) Easier to get into for new players. This specifically applied to the Second Edition Format but early Hyperspace also largely followed this for most factions. Basically the idea is it looks bad for the game if people have to look to eBay to get the ships from a dead edition and then buy a conversion kit to get into the game, and that's also a costly buy-in.

2.) Easier to balance. With the same number of ships per faction, it's easier to balance. Period. If a faction like Scum has four times as much stuff as a faction like Separatists, then the scum ships all need to be worse because they're being balanced around combo-potential, and this all the scum ships seem bad because relatively anti-synergistic (not built around card-combo) scum lists will be depowered since the scum card combos are pretty much guaranteed to be more powerful (since number of card interactions grows exponentially when the number of cards grows).

3.) Inspires creativity. Trying to find your playstyle in a limited ship set can be fun. Personally I'm not as in to this one (I get bored quickly at the Battle of Yavin type custom format events) but I can see why it's fun. It's sort of like building with LEGO vs. building with bits of foam and glue. Less pieces to work with increases your creativity by imposing constraints.

So now we get to my problems.

The first one is with the first point I made - Hyperspace is no longer any better for new players. New players who want to play Scum will probably need a StarViper and conversion to get Guri, new players who play Rebels will need Cassian, Blue Squadron Scout, etc. for their U-Wings and probably want an A-Wing for Jake. New Empire players need Soontir. New FO and Resistance players will need a conversion for their large base ships. Separatists and Republic don't matter because they're also super easy for new players to get into in extended. This point is completely invalid now.

Next, we get to the second point . My problem is that the points and slots are exactly the same for both formats. The reason for this is that people want to play the same list in both formats and be decently competitive with it in both, but then why do both formats exist? The problem is that the points are balanced around extended. So there's a couple ways this can work out:

• The big factions are completely dominant in extended. With more combos and options, they're just better at building versions of the same list archetypes.

• The little factions are completely dominant in Hyperspace. With all their options vs. a small fraction of the other factions' options, they just do better in this format.

• The ships that are in extended but not Hyperspace are garbage. To balance both factions, Extended = Hyperspace + meme ships.

Right now we have some mixture of all three of these effects, which is slightly obscured by Republic and Empire being a lot better than the other factions in both formats, and we're looking at this as where the rebalance needs to occur rather than considering independently the balance of the two formats. Basically what I'm saying is that at least one of these unpleasant things is doomed to happen so long as Hyperspace and Extended use the same points, and therefore Hyperspace is a net detriment to game balance.

The final point is still here I guess. Hyperspace can be fun in a way if you and all your friends only play extended and only play the big factions, and so Hyperspace is some sort of meme format. The problem here is that there's too many ships in Hyperspace now and it stops feeling different. Nothing's actually been rotated out yet and already it feels like a mini-Extended, with Scum (for example) having way more ships and most of their ships are intentionally bad to allow faction balance.

Basically what I'm getting at is what I've been mad about for a long time: Hyperspace should be the competitive format, and extended a fun format for casual events. But the insistence on competitively balancing both using the same points and on adding people's favorite ships to Hyperspace all the time has made all of the reasons I liked Hyperspace irrelevant.

Unless things are aggressively removed from Hyperspace and points go over to a method where we have a sheet for each format and the points are different between formats, I cannot continue to support Hyperspace as a format because I just don't see how having these two formats with the current methods is improving the game. I'm not mad about the game, I think it's reasonably balanced and very fun, I just think that I've stopped believing in the two formats.

I didn't think any of those three were the predominant reasons for creating Hyperspace.

I thought the point since the very star was that there would be two different metas even with the same points. This way if one meta goes stale, you can just jump over to the other which will be less stale. Of course, top-level competitive players also need to know how to respond to both metas.

Still feels like that works. Of course I only ever play extended and prefer it that way, but I've never really done OP events anyway.

This is completely speculation from what I have read into FFG streams, but it seems like their intent was to have most competitive play be Hyperspace based, and then realized this would piss off a pretty big segment of their player base.

The OP team has referenced that the future for hyperspace seems bright and they have big plans for it. Recently they intimated that Hyperspace might look much different than what it is right now.

Again, this needs a huge grain of salt as I am not prepared to provide any references.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I didn't think any of those three were the predominant reasons for creating Hyperspace.

I thought the point since the very star was that there would be two different metas even with the same points. This way if one meta goes stale, you can just jump over to the other which will be less stale. Of course, top-level competitive players also need to know how to respond to both metas.

Still feels like that works. Of course I only ever play extended and prefer it that way, but I've never really done OP events anyway.

Yeah these were just MY reasons for supporting Hyperspace, which I can no longer stand by. All of this is my opinion and why I'm questioning the purpose/use of the two formats.

I guess I can see the meta thing but it only goes so far. Especially if we have the second thing I talked about under balance, where the "meta" in both is the same (like Soontir, Vader, Jedi, and Republic beef might end up being this season)

I haven't kept up with it, but I thought HS was to be released 2nd edition ships basically, to avoid the confusion of having two editions out there. I noticed they have put ships not released in second edition into it as well, soon guess that idea was wrong.

I also thought it was meant to be a way to rotate ships/cards into or out of OP play temporarily as. A way to keep the meta from feeling too stale. I dont know if this is a thing. Have they taken anything out as of yet?

OP, I think your premise is correct. Once HS contains all(most of) the top tier stuff in extended then one becomes redundant and it could just be called Xwing. I never heard that HS would ever pick and choose what was in it but would always be only (and every) things released in 2.0 packaging

The current form of Hyperspace is based on wave releases of previously released 1.0 stuff. As more and more 1.0 stuff is re-released, the number of ships in the Hyperspace format will grow. Hyperspace, as it is now, is on borrowed time.

The future for it looks bright, however. FFG COULD do fun stuff each season of Hyperspace. They could limit the number of aces you can have, limit the amount of munitions that can be used, or really do anything they want on a season-by-season basis. I think this makes for a fun competitive format.

However, the lack of consistency in this format means that it cannot be the primary competitive format for the game.

13 minutes ago, BenDay said:

OP, I think your premise is correct. Once HS contains all(most of) the top tier stuff in extended then one becomes redundant and it could just be called Xwing. I never heard that HS would ever pick and choose what was in it but would always be only (and every) things released in 2.0 packaging

This is incorrect. That format is called “2nd edition” and is separately available in the squad builder.

Hyperspace is a separate competitive format with a rotation, keeping a smaller list of things to choose from, forever. “Second Edition” format will die, but “Hyperspace” is here to stay.

Um... my XWing app has 4 options; extended, hyperspace, variants, and custom. Am I using an old app?

Their definition for hyperspace in the app is 2ed core set and expansions and extended is that plus conversion sets.

1 minute ago, BenDay said:

Um... my XWing app has 4 options; extended, hyperspace, variants, and custom. Am I using an old app?

You're using the right app. Second Edition is from the old app.

• Hyperspace - Cannon Only
• Extended - Legends

Let's take a step back from the game. There is actually a pattern between the formats. First Hyperspace is the "Cannon" format. The ship chassis in hyperspace are featured in some cannon material, only exception is Scum with the Starviper. Then this makes extended the "Legends" format.

Ever since they put OOP ships into Hyperspace and made the game more inaccessibly difficult for the new player (which to no matter what degree might be argued, undeniably the case) and gave the entire state of Texas barely one Hyperspace Trial for season two, what was once my second most exciting aspect of X-Wing (behind Epic / Missions) has become a pale memory.

Which is a shame, because I've noticed that in playing across three major cities and scores of X-Wing players, Hyperspace displays the skill of the game in far greater measure.

Other opinions may vary, but that's like, their opinion, man.

1 minute ago, BenDay said:

Their definition for hyperspace in the app is 2ed core set and expansions and extended is that plus conversion sets.

You're right.

I’ve enjoyed some of the small differences between Extended and Hyperspace over the past few months. But I agree that Hyperspace needs to better distinguish itself. The rotation idea could be what it needs, but based on reactions I’ve seen in this forum, I don’t think they can rotate enough. Rebels and Empire have ships they cannot rotate out or risk riots. And the 4 newer factions don’t have the body count to be able to have a rotation for Hyperspace.

If Hyperspace had kept with the premise of “easier for new players”, I would have more respect for it. But even if that was the case, I would still be staunchly against it being the only competitive format.

As is, it is an amusing side dish.

26 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You're right.

That's clearly a bug in the crappy app... The Starviper, Interceptor, etc. still aren't available. No idea how this is supposed to be taken. It's really dumb.

24 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You're right.

This, brother.... So much this.

Such a ridiculous premise now to explain to new players who aren't familiar with miniatures gaming.

"You can play Risk 2020. Don't even need prior versions. It's its own game."

"Wait, sorry, you need the 1993 version that uses army shaped miniatures."

Asinine format design decisions, there that is.

27 minutes ago, BDrafty said:

The current form of Hyperspace is based on wave releases of previously released 1.0 stuff. As more and more 1.0 stuff is re-released, the number of ships in the Hyperspace format will grow. Hyperspace, as it is now, is on borrowed time.

The future for it looks bright, however. FFG COULD do fun stuff each season of Hyperspace. They could limit the number of aces you can have, limit the amount of munitions that can be used, or really do anything they want on a season-by-season basis. I think this makes for a fun competitive format.

However, the lack of consistency in this format means that it cannot be the primary competitive format for the game.

Don't you mean extended is on borrowed time? For instance, I don't see FFG ever doing a rebel ARC re-print, (for logistical reasons, but more importantly also for reasons of faction identity). ARCs are now forever a republic ship from this point onwards. Would a NEW player really buy an ARC and THEN go buy a rebel conversion kit just to fly as a Rebel ship too but only for the extended formats? I guess someone might...I wouldn't though.

It makes more sense to me that hyperspace will be the "official" format (though much larger than it is now), and relegating weird cross-over stuff like rebel ARCS (and probably other things like the K-wing, E-wing, or Scum Scuurg bomber) to the "fringe" play of extended.

For this reason I expect most of the upcoming rebel releases to be stuff we have seen on Star Wars Rebels (they already did the Ghost but probably the shuttles, Sabine's Tie, the Wookie Gunship).

Also, I prefer extended as opposed to hyperspace. IMO the *only* thing nice about hyperspace is faction identity and mechanics are a bit more clear/unique than extended, but I expect that to disappear with each wave ;(.

43 minutes ago, FrozenPhyro said:

• Hyperspace - Cannon Only
• Extended - Legends

Let's take a step back from the game. There is actually a pattern between the formats. First Hyperspace is the "Cannon" format. The ship chassis in hyperspace are featured in some cannon material, only exception is Scum with the Starviper. Then this makes extended the "Legends" format.

When the exception is something they had to specifically add outside of 2.0 releases, I think that’s enough to disprove the theory.

4 minutes ago, Gibbilo said:

Don't you mean extended is on borrowed time? For instance, I don't see FFG ever doing a rebel ARC re-print, (for logistical reasons, but more importantly also for reasons of faction identity). ARCs are now forever a republic ship from this point onwards. Would a NEW player really buy an ARC and THEN go buy a rebel conversion kit just to fly as a Rebel ship too but only for the extended formats? I guess someone might...I wouldn't though.

This is where a "card pack" would be handy, providing pilots, bases, and dials (or just dial covers?)

• Rebels: ARCs, Z-95s, and TIE
• Scum: Y-Wing, HWK

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

I don't see FFG ever doing a rebel ARC re-print

FFG did say at the announcement of 2.0 and since then that:

1) Everything in 1.0 will get a 2.0 release, though it could take awhile.

2) Every ship that is cross-faction will have individual blister releases in its own faction (no more buying most wanted to get scum cards for your Firespray and HWK)

An exception (if you want to look at it that way) is the epic ships, where one box includes all the components for multiple factions. This just seems like added value to me rather than cards behind a paywall.

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

Don't you mean extended is on borrowed time? For instance, I don't see FFG ever doing a rebel ARC re-print, (for logistical reasons, but more importantly also for reasons of faction identity). ARCs are now forever a republic ship from this point onwards. Would a NEW player really buy an ARC and THEN go buy a rebel conversion kit just to fly as a Rebel ship too but only for the extended formats? I guess someone might...I wouldn't though.

It makes more sense to me that hyperspace will be the "official" format (though much larger than it is now), and relegating weird cross-over stuff like rebel ARCS (and probably other things like the K-wing, E-wing, or Scum Scuurg bomber) to the "fringe" play of extended.

For this reason I expect most of the upcoming rebel releases to be stuff we have seen on Star Wars Rebels (they already did the Ghost but probably the shuttles, Sabine's Tie, the Wookie Gunship).

Also, I prefer extended as opposed to hyperspace. IMO the *only* thing nice about hyperspace is faction identity and mechanics are a bit more clear/unique than extended, but I expect that to disappear with each wave ;(.

The fact that FFG did a reprint of the Scum Z-95 indicates that FFG will likely do a Rebel ARC as well. It would be stupid for FFG to get rid of extended just because they have a "rotation format" as their main focus.

Rotations work for card games but X-wing has miniatures. I keep saying this if FFG want to rotate something it should be upgrades and pilots cards but at the very least leave one pilot card available for each ship model that can be fielded in X-wing. Cards are cheap but models are expensive, telling players they can't used the models they bought off of the company they bought the game from is a ridiculous proposition.

6 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Rotations work for card games but X-wing has miniatures. I keep saying this if FFG want to rotate something it should be upgrades and pilots cards but at the very least leave one pilot card available for each ship model that can be fielded in X-wing.

Finally, Zertik Strom and Turr Phennir will see their time.

14 minutes ago, XPav said:

Finally, Zertik Strom and Turr Phennir will see their time.

It is a way better option than just banning TIE Advance 1x for the season .

All you guys need to chill just a tad. You can still play with your toys no matter what the big guy says. They’re still giving us points and slots, so who cares what’s in the OP format? 😄