I see a lot of people giving shout-outs to Homing Missiles, but personally, I've never seen the value. What makes them so special?

They force damage through, making dodgy aces, or arc dodgers that want to win on points very unhappy, since any shot is guaranteed to get closer to shaving points off their list.

It also lets low mod, or low attack dice ships contribute far above their weight.

Finally, you get to keep the initial target lock, allowing your actions in future rounds to be spent on repositions, or defensive actions.

While I myself don't use them, because I don't tend to fly munitions, I've seen them put to very good use in my local group.

5 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

I see a lot of people giving shout-outs to Homing Missiles, but personally, I've never seen the value. What makes them so special?

The hard decision it presents nimble targets when they're facing Homing Missiles in mass. Do you chance your defense rolls against multiple 4 modded reds or do you take the auto damage?

Just now, Hiemfire said:

The hard decision it presents nimble targets when they're facing Homing Missiles in mass. Do you chance your defense rolls against multiple 4 modded reds or do you take the auto damage?

Use liberally against dodgy aces, I presume?

Just now, feltipern1 said:

Use liberally against dodgy aces, I presume?

Definitely seems to be a key to the attraction. Especially if those "aces" have relatively low hp, as they tend to.

It also depends on the ship carrying them. There often aren't better options.

Lately, I've been pretty underwhelmed with Energy Shell Charges. With Hyenas being a great platform to launch DRK-1 Probe Droids, getting locks for Homing Missiles isn't too hard. For the same price as ESC, Homing Missiles present two charges, and are going to really consistently deal a damage. Vultures need the most help against dodgy acey types, IMHO. They can handle big, high-hull things decently, just with massed attacks, but Homing ensures that a shot counts against an ace.

Relatedly, I'm fascinated by Passive Sensors TIE/sf. A Zeta with PS will be 35 points before adding the missiles, so you can only afford a 5 point missile. Maybe I'd try Concussion if I could, but over 40 points and I think I'd rather just take SF Gunner at 42. The 5-and-under options are Homing, Cluster, and Ion. Cluster seem fun, and would be brutal against swarms, but possibly underwhelming otherwise. Ion probably isn't too bad, with three rather than 2 charges, and still decently likely to push damage, but Homing has game-changing levels of potential deadliness against aces.

*e* I don't think I'd be too likely to bother with Homing Missiles, however, if I didn't have some tricks to help me get locks easily.

I tend to use them on A-Wings and other 2-primary missile-carriers. They don't always get used, but the one guaranteed damage is pretty good if you'd only roll two dice otherwise.

Even against 2 agi things they have value. Kylo takes an otherwise unlikely snipe at r3 obstructed, gets the damage, and charges for an r1 full mods. A wings create no go zones for soontir, and passive SFs can now play that game. Low dps ships can now have 2 turns of getting the hits: Inky's, Rebel A's, Z 95's, etc. Massive value for 5 pts.

The problem is that most ships have so many slots and so many upgrades and builds hold value on their own--and that's before the general rule of more and lean > few and thicc. Them good, but if you take them, it's for a reason.

Problem with homings is that they're targetlock dependent AND ridiculously matchup dependent

You run into anything beefy and they're almost wasted points. Even republic regen barely cares about these guys

So, you'd have to find a ship with a good general purpose attack AND a missile slot AND enough points to effective outfit them without screwing their efficiency (especially at FIVE!!! points)

In Theory, they'd be super sweet as a backup to close range ships such as Arvel or APT stuff such as named Punishers or OS-1 boats

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Problem with homings is that they're targetlock dependent AND ridiculously matchup dependent

You run into anything beefy and they're almost wasted points. Even republic regen barely cares about these guys

So, you'd have to find a ship with a good general purpose attack AND a missile slot AND enough points to effective outfit them without screwing their efficiency (especially at FIVE!!! points)

----

Yeah. they're so situational that they're extremely questionable value, and especially no at 5points. Even for Vader Soontir.

So, I'm going to put down as generally worthless...

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

----

Yeah. they're so situational that they're extremely questionable value, and especially no at 5points. Even for Vader Soontir.

So, I'm going to put down as generally worthless...

Eh, the game could do with a bit more situational upgrades, and a bit fewer universal ones, in my opinion.

Situational is fine

Situational at 5 points is less fine

1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

The problem is that most ships have so many slots and so many upgrades and builds hold value on their own--and that's before the general rule of more and lean > few and thicc. Them good, but if you take them, it's for a reason.

59 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Situational is fine

Situational at 5 points is less fine

Exactly this. Sorry for the brief soap box but this is a pet peeve of mine. I'll try to keep it brief.

Generally speaking, there are 5 good missiles: Barrage, Prockets, ESC, Discord, and DBM. As for the other four, any given list would be better off using its missile points elsewhere:

• For cheap filler ships, the cost is multiplied across every ship you take. The primary value is in the extra punch, but they're not equipped to do so reliably and only 1-2 of your ships is likely to use them per game.

• For bombers, you're better off with any other ordnance. Torpedoes hit harder, barrage, prockets, and ESC are easier to get off for the same benefit or more, and those only cost from equal to 4 points more at worst.

• For aces, they typically have a solid attack already, so the splash damage, unmodded double-tap, questionable ion, etc. provide very limited value. Prockets can be nice for punch but why would they ever take the classic four (Ion, Cluster, Concussion, Homing)?

• There are tricks that exist to make locks easier or more reliable, but all of these but one (targeting synchronizer) have to be taken on each ship, further increasing the cost per ship for a situational 3-die attack. It's throwing more good points after bad. Even on bombers with Probes or the like, you're always better off with Torps or the other missiles.

In summary, they're currently priced as if they could be used on an unsupported A-Wing or Z-95 in the initial joust, which is basically impossible. They're not priced like a situational control effect or fringe reward for your filler surviving the initial engagement without a focus. They're priced more like a reliable 3-dice effect.

For proof that they're underperforming, you can see that from the last Listfortress season (wave 3 through the points updates), these missiles have the following records

1) Ion Missiles - Squads: 20 - Percentile: 16.14

2) Cluster Missiles - Squads: 130 - Percentile: 17.92

3) Homing Missiles - Squads: 22 - Percentile: 19.54

4) Concussion Missiles - Squads: 52 - Percentile: 20.55

Compared to a baseline mean of 99 squads and 25%. This is pretty sad though not exactly abysmal. It's mainly proof that the few people who decided to invest in them would have done better investing in something else. But I don't think it would take that much to make them viable. I'm the one who ran the statistical model for the points changes just before the last update came out and it recommended 2 points off of each. Maybe that's excessive but 1-2 points off each could easily do it. Consider:

• Ion Missiles - 2 points. 3 charges is nice. It would make a nice tool for beefing up the attack of instictive aim inquisitors, situational control for your aces, and occasional offensive bonus for your blockers. Would you prefer it to predator on an A-Wing? Not usually, but on a Z-95 you could take it on an I1 generic, which is a plus.

• Cluster Missiles - 3-4 points. 4 charges is awesome, but doesn't go that far if you're depending on it for double-tap. I like the flexibility it offers the likes of Vader for an occasional bonus attack, but without mods and proceeding only twice per game it's still of very dubious value. It's of more value on a 2-primary like the /v1 or Synchronized Torrents and at 3 points, the extra sink for Synchronized Console could be well worth it for a good bit of extra punch. The trick is that it only provides an extra die at range 2 with a lock, which is a very limited effect. It might make the tricks the named pilots offer more worth their while. It might make Instinctive aim appealing. It might even get used on Vultures, but even at 3 points I don't see it being auto-include on anything when you could get intimidation for the same cost.

• Homing Missiles - 3-4 points. Only 2 charges but a really nice bonus effect. Definitely the most reliable of the lock-based missiles, but facing the same problems. I've tried these on a 5x TIE Bomber list and... got 3 off over the course of a game. Without Jendon you really struggle for the lock. With Jendon you should be buying torps. At just 3 points less than Barrage it's no wonder Barrage bombers are so popular. I put these in the same camp as clusters; it would be worth the extra cost of locking shenanigans if the base cost weren't so expensive. At 5 points I'll take a pass. At 3 points they become a really, really appealing option, but would they really be auto-include? For the same price difference you could up just about any generic to a crack generic. Which has more value? It depends on the rest of your list. I can't imagine any chassis that would always be taking them or that would be abusive with them. Passive SF TIEs would be annoying, but maybe that says more about Passive Sensors? I feel like PS is a bit cheap.

• Concussion Missiles - 4-5 points. Here it is at last. A reliable 3-dice, damage-dealing attack that works out to range three with a nice side benefit - mostly. On a 2-primary ace like Grand Quiz or Tomax Bren, it could be a nice cheap way of getting a good punch in (though only three times in the whole game). On swarmier ships you begin to run into an issue: The splash damage is more likely to affect you than your opponent! Torrents, Bombers, Hyenas, Vultures, etc. are all unshielded and some of the most likely ships to have damage cards that can be flipped. That takes this from "situational benefit for 2-primaries" to "very situational benefit for 2 primaries" or "occasional punch for 2-primary aces." Worth 4 points in many lists? Probably. Worth 6? I can't imagine why or when. Would 4 make it auto-include on A-Wings or Z-95s? There's a lot of good talent, crew, mech, and sensor upgrades you'd be passing up elsewhere in your list for that. I can't imagine it being a must-have on anything even at 4.

When the 2nd edition missiles were first spoiled I was suuuper excited. I love the way they differentiated the torps from the missiles: Torps are hard-punching tools that get work done and are the platform's main offense. Missiles are a fiddly and situational thing that comes as an extra occasional benefit for a nice cheap price – you won't use it every game, but you'll be glad to have it when you do. It's really cool; I love situational upgrades. Situational upgrades are great. Situational upgrades that are priced the same as always-on upgrades with similar effects are not great.

Okay I'm done.

I ought to say this more often, since the "2 points off missiles" rant happens so often, but it's always felt off by at least 1 point. 2 point Ions seems kind of absurd to me. Heck, I'm not convinced that ESC is better than *current price* Ion and Homing missiles for Vultures and Hyenas.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I ought to say this more often, since the "2 points off missiles" rant happens so often, but it's always felt off by at least 1 point. 2 point Ions seems kind of absurd to me. Heck, I'm not convinced that ESC is better than *current price* Ion and Homing missiles for Vultures and Hyenas.

I think Ion and Clusters at 3 and Homing and Concussions at 4 would feel right.

I think the problem with Homings is that their dynamic against high agility low health ships feels kind of similar to the dynamic between auto thrusters and turrets in 1.0, where it's basically a hard counter to a specific type of ship. If you make it too cheap such that a good number of people will randomly throw 3 in a list for 9 points because they can fit it, then people who like high agility low health ships will feel like they're getting punished and not want to play that style anymore. This was a good thing about auto thrusters in 1.0 because people saw turrets as an NPE and so the less people played them the better, but it would be bad if TIE players or CLT jedi players or Scyk felt like they were randomly getting punished by their opponents list-building choices, so TLDR I think Homing missiles have to cost enough points to force people to make a real choice about whether to include them and be able to easily toss them in a list as filler.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

2 point Ions seems kind of absurd to me.

13 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I think Ion and Clusters at 3 and Homing and Concussions at 4 would feel right.

Okay, yeah I think I can give you guys that. 2 is pretty stupid cheap for a reliable 3-die attack with three charges now that I think about it, and Homing can situationally be quite powerful.

15 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I think the problem with Homings is that their dynamic against high agility low health ships feels kind of similar to the dynamic between auto thrusters and turrets in 1.0, where it's basically a hard counter to a specific type of ship.

This is something I've been wary of as well. It's really only "good" against fragile ace-types unless you have it in massive numbers. Honestly though, an ace should challenge the single-modded 4-dice much of the time, if only to get rid of the lock and prevent it from happening again. If they can't dodge the arc completely, they ought to have focus/evade, or else they can take the hit. I ran the odds on four reds with a lock against three greens with focus/evade and 60/40 for one damage is better than one guaranteed, especially because it breaks the lock that the other ship had to work hard to get in the first place, preventing further damage.

Still can be very strong, especially with passive Sensors. Passive at three might be a point too cheap. I'm eager to see how it shakes out.

It is still very expensive and typically has a damage cap at 1 damage. If a person is loaded with tokens they may take the chance that they can cancel it especially if the got an evade combo-up with a force/focus/calculate token and 3+ green dice, but with a B-wing they are just going to say they will take 1. thing is you need 2 of them to take out a single ship.

It can make some players overconfident and try to test their luck and go for the roll. Just because it is 4 red dice with a Target Lock doesn't mean that it will hit, but the probability is that without some serious green dice modification the attack will make it through.

I think the shout out are more of a psychological boost than an actual advantage. It is possible that some cheeky players go for the roll then end up with 3 or 4 hits. However I have had the experience of getting 1 hit in which there really was no difference in the outcome, and I have seen damage from homing missiles successfully canceled. But as you get up to the higher tables unless that ship is on their last hit point, your opponent is going to take the 1 damage.

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

----

Yeah. they're so situational that they're extremely questionable value, and especially no at 5points. Even for Vader Soontir.

So, I'm going to put down as generally worthless...

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Eh, the game could do with a bit more situational upgrades, and a bit fewer universal ones, in my opinion.

Fundamentally they’re designed as a relief valve in case token stacks become dominant. It’s not for Vader Soontir, it’s for Full Throttle, deep force pools, Whisper, etc. Those ships have a decision to make, especially when the guaranteed damage would reach half points.

I suspect that passive sensors is another relief valve, although I’m not sure what for. Not arc dodging...

See the above posts for why the current iteration is bad.

Realize that something being bad does not mean it doesn't have pros, or it doesn't have good places it can be good, situational usefulness. You just really have to do some hard rational thinking and compare it to the cons instead of sweeping those under the rug.

You REALLY have to try hard to make a fully rational argument that these are good or well designed or balanced at their current price point. And when you have to try THAT hard, you're generally stretching and likely no longer reasonable. Don't be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. At least be usefully right, historically informed (1.0), well-tested under multiple situation, helpful to the group

If you can put 3+ in a list, it makes people make choices they don’t want to make.

Remember that FFG adjusts the points based on tournament results. Tournaments have a lot of high Init Aces in them. Homing Missiles do really well against them and have shown they always pull higher than their points input for tournaments (due to the number of Aces). For those that don't always play in that meta, they don't always pull higher than their 2 pt value.

Personally, I think they are worth less than 5 pts, but understand WHY they are doing it: the tournament scene. I know people love their high Init Aces, but I like to see them burn.

52 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

If you can put 3+ in a list, it makes people make choices they don’t want to make.

True, but I typically prefer 15 points of upgrade to do better than 6 damage in an unlikely absolute best-case-scenario. With passive the investment becomes 24 for STILL just 6 damage.

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Remember that FFG adjusts the points based on tournament results. Tournaments have a lot of high Init Aces in them. Homing Missiles do really well against them and have shown they always pull higher than their points input for tournaments (due to the number of Aces). For those that don't always play in that meta, they don't always pull higher than their 2 pt value.

Personally, I think they are worth less than 5 pts, but understand WHY they are doing it: the tournament scene. I know people love their high Init Aces, but I like to see them burn.

I posted the tournament results above and they are doing decidedly NOT well compared to the average.

I’d like to see them factor actual tournament performance in more than they do. I did and I got some pretty different results from them on the last update, though the main stuff came out pretty similar.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I posted the tournament results above and they are doing decidedly NOT well compared to the average.

At 2 pts or 5?

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

At 2 pts or 5?

At their cost from Wave 3 to the points update, so 5. Where did the 2 come from? It’s all in listfortress so you can see as well. Lock-based missiles aren’t getting taken much except clusters, and their performance is awful.