1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:The ship with Treacherous does not apply its effect unless it is the one being attacked. "While you defend". Contrast to:
Or are you speaking from the position of the upgraded ship's opponent in which case it is "great" for you as the opponent?
You can give another one of your ships the Strain. So, if you have a Vulture Droid between you and the enemy, your Vulture can take the Strain to reduce the hit. That's a fair trade in my book.
4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Yes but it only triggers when you defend not when they do. It's entirely at your opponent's discretion.
True, your opponent has to want to fire at the ship with Treacherous.
I realized recently that I haven't been using Impervium Plating on Grievous when I fly him, because I'd forgotten it existed. That seems like a very foolish mistake I need to rectify.
I wrote down part of my considerations on the wiki page in the notes section, partially because the card inspires me the way Determination did, but without disappointing me on the odds. IMO, it's often worth it even on a generic without the title (3 hull), but mostly because crits are in vogue at the moment. Proton Torps, ESC, Darth Vader, and other crit sources are happily marching about the meta right now, and that means lots of crits cresting over your defense dice and shields onto your delicate hull. Not only could you prevent up to 2 damage this way, as mentioned above you're close to immune to ship crits. Most ship crits are pretty nasty for a Belbullab, e.g. Direct Hit, Damaged Engine, attack/defense reduction, getting ionized, getting locked into straight maneuvers, leaking fuel for additional hit damage later, etc. Direct Hit and Fuel Leak together are almost a third of the deck, and other crits either severely impede you, add more damage, and/or rob your actions to deal with them. That defense is worth 4 points even at only 3 hull, and near-mandatory at 5.
In my experience, for a 3-hull ship, about 1 of the damage will be a crit; 2 for 5 hull. That's not mathematically calculated, it's not the result of a fine mind observing the game closely. It's a gut feeling, probably an emotionally-driven gut feeling. Based on probably misremembering my experiences. 
But? I've found my ships take so many crits, a 1.0-Determination-styled crit-discarding card is kinda fantastic. And this card's odds are inverted by shedding ship cards, some of which are the most brutal a Belbullab can receive. It's just too bad Panicked Pilot isn't in the list. IMO, impervium is a must on soulless grievous, and a usually-solid choice for the others.
That said, I don't know that I like the idea of packing my list with Bellies. Grievous is fantastic, but the rest do not impress me. Vulture swarms and even Hyenas make better choices, IMO... which is too bad, because I want to like belly swarms. The comparison to Kihraxz Fighters is a bit on point -- that's another ship with similar stats that's just a bit too awkward to swarm in non-casual games, and which sits in a faction with other options that see more use. Among the generics, I'd say bellies are better thanks to the shield and cheaper cost, plus the impervium plating option. Grievous sees way more use than, say, Talonbane or the other named k-fighter pilots, and it feels like a more solid ship overall... so maybe swarming them is viable.
I'd consider something like this:
Grievous with Outmaneuver + Impervium + Soulless One
Generic with Impervium
Generic with Impervium
Generic with nothing
DFS-311 with Grapple Struts
That feels like it gets solid use out of grievous, while pairing him with 4 allies that can swing around the other side of the map and make the enemy regret going after grievous (or make them deal with the swarm to grievous' benefit), as suggested earlier. No relay but you could swap an impervium and grapple struts if needed. I don't think it's worth cutting deep to get Kracken, but TV-94 or TA-175 on a generic belly-bub seem like good options.
I forgot about impervium plating all this time because the first time I fielded the ship, I didn't have points for it... and then never remembered to try it again. Oh, what I have been missing. That plating was fantastic!
Four guys at my FLGS decided to run a 800-point Republic vs Separatist game yesterday. Greivous with Outmaneuver and the title was an absolute monster, waiting until the Clones had to engage with the Vulture swarm before attacking, and basically erasing a ship with each attack. By the end of the game, he was the sole survivor, taking down a pair of N1 starfighters to lock down the victory for the good bots.
Edited by PhantomFOFlew some more of these guys.
Butterbot up the middle, either 2-forward + 2 forward or 5-straight to land directly on the middle of a rock, and ideally never moving. Toss out calculate tokens, and eat more incoming fire than you deserve.
Grievous on one side, Sear and 2x FOA on the other side in a loose formation. It can be a deadly pincer, with ships on either side able to close fast.
There's a nasty trick Grievous can play with Bullseye. If you're 0-3 of Sear, Grievous can both Crack Shot and spend a Calculate (from DFS-311) to cancel *two* evade results, potentially with both his own rerolls and focus. It's pretty gross.
In general, I've just really enjoyed flying Belbullabs. I like the way they move. The blues are horrible, but there's a lot of power in hard 1s, 5-straight, the option to boost or barrel roll (with tokens if you really want). It all gets easier with Kraken keeping a few tokens around, and with Butterbot filling in some gaps.
2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:It all gets easier with Kraken keeping a few tokens around, and with Butterbot filling in some gaps.
Have you tried the Sear/Kraken/4x Autopilot build yet? I thought it up at one point but I don’t fly separatists at all, so I haven’t tried it
7 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:Have you tried the Sear/Kraken/4x Autopilot build yet? I thought it up at one point but I don’t fly separatists at all, so I haven’t tried it
Not yet, but it's packed.
I like the idea of running Grievous light and making the other belly heavy with buddies, to split the threat and give the opponent a much harder choice. Crack shot Grievous isn't a large snack, but he's dangerous to ignore. There's more points in the other team, and they have more firepower plus Sear's ability. So you really need them dead too, but then you risk exposing your flank to grievous. Butterbot is a nice filler addition too, solid support for the team.
And I revel in seeing fun Separatist alternatives to the vulture swarm!
6 hours ago, Wazat said:I like the idea of running Grievous light and making the other belly heavy with buddies, to split the threat and give the opponent a much harder choice. Crack shot Grievous isn't a large snack, but he's dangerous to ignore. There's more points in the other team, and they have more firepower plus Sear's ability. So you really need them dead too, but then you risk exposing your flank to grievous. Butterbot is a nice filler addition too, solid support for the team.
And I revel in seeing fun Separatist alternatives to the vulture swarm!
The only real question for the list, IMHO, is:
or
Wat's a bit individually shootier than Sear, and Sear is likely tankier and has more support, but he'll be weaker if he's the last thing alive.
Sear Pros
Sear Cons
Wat Pros
Wat Cons
It feels like a Horton vs Drea discussion, but on a ship with no munitions (and your allies are less modified with calculate that with focus).
Wat depends on getting himself and/or his team close to the target, which is tougher to pull off against aces, runaway lists, etc. Sear faces his own challenges trying to line up those bullseyes. That would seem like sixes, but Wat helps only his own 3-dice attack, while Sear potentially improves any of the 5 ships in the list thanks to Kraken and Butterbot providing calculate tokens across rounds and at the start of engagement (when you can visually estimate who has a bullseye).
It also changes the calculation of which direction to go: with Sear on the table, chasing Grievous means risking bullseye attacks from the chasing team and butterbot, since that bullseye works at ranges 1 - 3. They'll want to be aware of and dodge those bullseyes during the chase, in addition to grievous' position, possibly making suboptimal choices. But when fielding Wat, going for grievous first becomes a solid choice for the opponent since they limit grievous's effectiveness by having their arcs on him, possibly kill grievous early, and stay out of range 1 of Wat's buddies while running away from them (toward grievous). Grievous may offer one reroll to Wat on occasion while he's in that fight, but that's not as good as having the opponent twitch whenever they land in a bullseye and consider spending their actions to reposition out, even if that hurts their pursuit of grievs. I feel like Sear keeps things more balanced overall.
In Wat's favor, range 1 does happen decently often in a tussle, so it matters what your opponent flies and how they like to approach the team. And he'll be effective all throughout the fight, even the end game if he's alive (he has an easier time getting into range 1 than sear has lining up a bullseye shot and calculating). But if the opponent isn't letting you get close very often (I face a lot of fleeing/squirrely fleets), his ability doesn't come into play. And that's only one attack they fear, so they may be willing to accept that risk to remove grievous, butterbot, and the generics before going after the bulky wat.
If you can get into a tussle, Wat & Grievous are solid hammers. With Sear, everyone is a potential hammer, just less often so. Whether or not the bullseyes or R1 matter depends a lot on how the opponent flies. For what it's worth, my experience with crack ties and kimogilas says the bullseyes are either amazing or disappointing depending on the opponent's behavior, with no in-between results. 
Same deal with ships that really want themselves or buddies at range 1. Squirrely opponents can make that difficult, and opponents that are willing to play along do so because they benefit more than you do -- e.g. a swarm that's eager to make you joust, or a beef list that simply doesn't care about your damage output because they'll survive it and nuke you in return.
IMO, you'll need to fly both and see how they work out. I'm drawn to Sear, but I suspect Wat will be more effective as long as you're squirrely with Grievous in case they chase him.
Changing topics a bit, I think I remember why he's called Butterbot. It's a Rick & Morty meme based on a scene from the show where a robot asks its creator (Rick) about its purpose, and Rick tersely tells it the only reason it exists is to pass butter, causing it an existential crisis. Link to meme. I can't find the x-wing variant but I assume it exists, and it goes something like this:
DFS-311: What is my purpose?
Palpatine: You pass butter calc tokens.
DFS-311: Oh my god.
Palpatine: Exactly.
So presumably Butterbot is having an existential crisis.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:50 PM, ClassicalMoser said:Have you tried the Sear/Kraken/4x Autopilot build yet? I thought it up at one point but I don’t fly separatists at all, so I haven’t tried it
I've been flying this online for a couple months now (8mo baby doesn't let me out much!) And its absolutely devastating.
It's 5Xwings all over again. Lining up the bullseye shots is consistently doable with good blocking, which isn't too difficult with how maneuverable they are.
Their blues are admittedly not the greatest so you have to linked action and sloop at the right times, but having Kraken often means at least one of them has a left over token and can afford to not clear stress right away. Their dial is amazingly flexible.
Found 4 bulbs on ebay and went for it
On 8/6/2019 at 10:40 PM, theBitterFig said:
DFS-311 (Struts) 24 - AKA Butterbot. I don't know who named it thusly, or why... but it seems like it stuck.
@LagJanson first told me and explained it was from Rick and Morty. Rick makes an intelligent AI....just to pass the butter. His sole purpose in life is to pass butter.....much like 311 passing the Calc tokens.
8 hours ago, S41X said:8mo baby doesn't let me out much!
Hang in there dudeman!!
On 8/7/2019 at 12:50 AM, ClassicalMoser said:Have you tried the Sear/Kraken/4x Autopilot build yet? I thought it up at one point but I don’t fly separatists at all, so I haven’t tried it
Forgot to mention, but I did give it a shot since then, and I just don't really think it's for me. I think swapping 2x Autopilots for Grievous and DFS-311 just fits me better at the moment. I'm still not sure if I'd rather be running Sear or Wat as the second "ace" in the block with the remaining 2x Autopilots.