Anyone have much experience with significant numbers of these fellows?

They've got a strong dial if you aren't stressed (but weak blues), a great action bar (with links they can't always use, due to the weak blues), and an honest 3-red dice attack. I know Hyenas with ESC can have a similar-ish profile on the opening round, but having that real 3-red primary seems like the kind of thing that could add up in the midgame.

Unfortunately, they're just too dang expensive in terms of real money to see a lot of casual experimentation.

A few thoughts:

5x Feethan Ottraw Autopilot with Impervium Plating. How does this compare Five. Cartel. Marauders., not head-to-head, but against the field? Only Calculate instead of Focus, which is weaker on offense, but nearly the same on defense. Impervium is a massive RNG unknown. When you pitch a Direct Hit, that's seriously impressive, but you might never take any ship crits at all. However, the Boost is really nice for not getting caught very far out of position.

4x FOA with Movie Grievous (Treacherous, Impervium, Soulless One) *e* just take Crack Shot*. Presuming Imperv isn't great across an entire list, upgrading to Grievous (or Wat Tambor) kinda makes sense. A loose formation of 4 Autopilots in one corner, Grievous in the other seems like a scary deployment to face. Grievous comes in and starts taking names if you try to fight the Autopilots. However, the Autopilots with their boost and 5-straight are probably fast enough to close on someone who goes for Grievous first.

Probably also worth it trying to get TV-175 into the list, if not Kraken. I figure Soulless One has enough hull that Impervium Plating probably has enough time to trigger and probably becomes worthwhile, but it might not be worth giving up access to a Tactical Relay. To that end, who gets the relay? I kind of presume one of the Autopilots, to spread out the high-value targets. I could see Wat bringing Kraken, though, since having his own Calculate can be quite handy: he can trigger his own ability.

Once you move out of 5x Belbullabs, there's some interesting 4 + Support options. The two support ships which strike me are DFS-311 with Struts (5-straight onto a big rock turn 1, then just sit there and support, and distract for more than your 24 points are worth), or a DRK-1 Probe Droids Hyena.

• Treacherous Crack Shot Wat, 3x Autopilots (TV-175 on someone), and 404 with ESC, Failsafe, Probes, Struts
• 404 with Probes and Struts, 4x Skakoan Ace. 404 doesn't seem too threatening here, but with long-range locks and 4-dice Range 1 shots, it's not terrible. Like a smaller, weaker Colonel Jendon.
• Grievous (Soulless), Wat (Kraken), 2x Autopilots, DFS-311
• Grievous (Soulless), 3x Skakoan Aces, DFS-311

I'd sooner ESC hyenas, honestly

Given my dice, they're effectively the same (last 1-2 rounds and fire once given initiative 1)

For me, the beeble is a cheap relay dinghy (generally Sear due to initiative tie with Arcs + his ability)...OR grievous

And as with most other cheap 3-die primary ships, I'd sooner a striker or khirax

Honestly I think S1 is the thing that elevates it above the crowd. I wouldn't consider using more than one, I don't think, for that reason. Wat is great alongside droid swarms, Greivous is great alone, (though, so's his crew variant so it's not always a 100% easy choice), but I'd find it hard to countenance using anyone else - Sear's ability is very iffy without Kraken or the new Relay, and not very useful even with, because Networked Calc only works once, and both ESC and Sear only work on calcs on the attacking ship, and the generics are decent but low init, and it only takes a very small points investment to get Greivous, who is honesty one of the most efficient ships in the game at the moment, hampered only by his low init.

Before the latest points change I was running 3 alongside 2 Vultures. Impervium put in a lot of work and Seer let them punch a lot of damage in against 3-green ships.

Tried a list of Grievous, 2 Skakoan Aces and a DFS-311 before July points (and once after them). They're fun, but you cannot really compete against true meta stuff.

I found myself looking at a Bulbasaur swarm a while back. I've not tried it in anger save on Fly Casual, but it seems fun to use.

As you say; the big problem is that the ship's party piece (for a heavy swarmer) is honest-to-god linked actions, but the linked action is a calculate (bad compared to focus) and the blue moves you need to shrug off that stress are not exactly wieldy.

• Grievous and drones
  • Grievous is great, cheap, effective and an awesome flanker. I genuinely think him plus a bunch of autopilots would have legs; 4 autopilots is a force you can't ignore but letting grievous on your flank is painful too.
  • I'd be tempted to consider Outmanoeuvre instead of Treacherous/Soulless One if you want to put him on a flank, but Treacherous works too if you can make the enemy obstruct one another's shots.
  • I think that Grievous and Soulless One is the reason to want the Bellboy; if you want him, you're stuck with seperatists and hence the blabbermouth is your only heavy swarm option, rather than wanting them per se. I agree with @ficklegreendice that I'd prefer other heavy swarmers taken chassis-versus-chassis in isolation.
• 5 x Impervious Drones
  • Drones have 3 hull. Disregarding unpredictables like marksmanship, torpedoes, "static" and my friend rolling the ****ing red dice, 1/8 of your hits are criticals. But they're cancelled last, and target locks increase the proportion.
  • I would estimate probably about 1/4 of the damage cards I take (very rough rule of thumb) are face up? Does that sound right for people?
  • My squad is 2 agility (so the same) but all hull. So I don't really see criticals 'wasted' against shields. But the proportion should be the same.
  • If that's right, I'd say you've got about a 0.75 chance of a given critical being a ship critical and being discarded.
  • A ship basically should discard about half a damage card in the process of being killed. That's worse than a hull upgrade in raw durability increase, but the near-immunity to critical effects is a lot more impressive. Certainly, the ability to fly shieldless through (for the sake of argument) a pattern of proton bombs and frankly not care is amazing.

If I had separatists I would definitely be trying this:

Captain Sear (39)
Kraken (10)
Impervium Plating (4)

Feethan Ottraw Autopilot (36)
Feethan Ottraw Autopilot (36)
Feethan Ottraw Autopilot (36)
Feethan Ottraw Autopilot (36)

Total: 197

Lots of Calculates that you get to save, free crack shots with the extras, lots of 3-primaries, plenty of health, terrible initiative value, but some great blocking potential with the linked actions and quite decent dial. A successful R1 strike with these guys deliver 20 red dice with calculate and/or lock plus crack shot.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Grievous and drones

• Grievous is great, cheap, effective and an awesome flanker. I genuinely think him plus a bunch of autopilots would have legs; 4 autopilots is a force you can't ignore but letting grievous on your flank is painful too.
• I'd be tempted to consider Outmanoeuvre instead of Treacherous/Soulless One if you want to put him on a flank, but Treacherous works too if you can make the enemy obstruct one another's shots.
• I think that Grievous and Soulless One is the reason to want the Bellboy; if you want him, you're stuck with seperatists and hence the blabbermouth is your only heavy swarm option, rather than wanting them per se. I agree with @ficklegreendice that I'd prefer other heavy swarmers taken chassis-versus-chassis in isolation.

I am strongly of the opinion that Daredevil is the best talent for Grievous. The biggest problem when flying the Belbullab is that it can't knife-fight or execute sharp maneuvers when stressed. With Daredevil, you can easily execute a 90-degree turn after a bank. It lets Grievous get into all sorts of crazy flanking positions, and his ability still lets him get dice mods on offense.

With Kraken he can even keep double mods too. Interesting thought.

9 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

I am strongly of the opinion that Daredevil is the best talent for Grievous. The biggest problem when flying the Belbullab is that it can't knife-fight or execute sharp maneuvers when stressed. With Daredevil, you can easily execute a 90-degree turn after a bank. It lets Grievous get into all sorts of crazy flanking positions, and his ability still lets him get dice mods on offense.

I've got mixed feelings on Daredevil here. Sure, hard Boosts are nice, but then you'll be stuck on bank moves due to the stress. You're not also linking a Focus, so you're kinda the same as using the full white dial for the hard moves, followed by a bank boost. Not entirely, but mostly. I suppose Daredevil can be more of a surprise extra twist, but round-over-round, you don't increase the speed at which you turn around.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I've got mixed feelings on Daredevil here. Sure, hard Boosts are nice, but then you'll be stuck on bank moves due to the stress. You're not also linking a Focus, so you're kinda the same as using the full white dial for the hard moves, followed by a bank boost. Not entirely, but mostly. I suppose Daredevil can be more of a surprise extra twist, but round-over-round, you don't increase the speed at which you turn around.

Sure. You're not going to be using it every turn. In a full game, I'll probably use it 2-3 times. But every time I've used it, it's proven itself to be a clutch talent that has allowed me to flank a would-be blocker, line up a shot where a normal boost wouldn't have, or swing myself into position to get quickly back into the fight.

1 minute ago, PhantomFO said:

Sure. You're not going to be using it every turn. In a full game, I'll probably use it 2-3 times. But every time I've used it, it's proven itself to be a clutch talent that has allowed me to flank a would-be blocker, line up a shot where a normal boost wouldn't have, or swing myself into position to get quickly back into the fight.

Probably the kind of thing that you just have to do, just have to put on the table.

@ClassicalMoser, I'm a huge fan of your Sear+Kraken+4Auto swarm.

It might be the most optimized use of the chassis's linked calculate.

I'd like to see someone dunk on some hyperspace event with this!

14 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

@ClassicalMoser, I'm a huge fan of your Sear+Kraken+4Auto swarm.

It might be the most optimized use of the chassis's linked calculate.

I'd like to see someone dunk on some hyperspace event with this!

Thank you! For me it's just a thought experiment. I haven't bought into Separatists myself, and even if I had, I'm skeptical that anyone actually has five SoS packs. I mean, they'd be great for epic...

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Thank you! For me it's just a thought experiment. I haven't bought into Separatists myself, and even if I had, I'm skeptical that anyone actually has five SoS packs. I mean, they'd be great for epic...

Someone will....

A guy in my area is a 40k gamer with a few armies, including Necron, and specifically bought into Xwing for the droids.

On 7/24/2019 at 5:50 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Thank you! For me it's just a thought experiment. I haven't bought into Separatists myself, and even if I had, I'm skeptical that anyone actually has five SoS packs. I mean, they'd be great for epic...

Three SOS + two solitary bubbles eBay (~$18 per, which is about the MSRP of a single expansion)...

I had a bunch of Store Credit from selling off my MTG cards from like 20 years ago. It wasn't an expensive collection (only 3 figures), but what other high-school hobbies can you sell of for, like, anything?

//

Anyhow, played Movie Grievous + 4 for two games today against Poe/Finn/Tallie/L'ulo. 1-1.

The Bellbullab is a nifty ship to fly. Moves better than a Kihraxz, slightly, but not much. Calculate instead of Focus matters. I don't think it did on defense, but on like 4 or 5 attacks, I was only able to convert 1 and not 2 eyes (even 3 eyes, once).

Treacherous never triggered. Dang I wish I could afford Daredevil, just to try it, but I don't know that it'd be worth giving up Impervium.

//

I may have to try out the Sear/Kraken version, but I'd probably go with Soulless One over Impervium. Two guaranteed hull, rather than two charges which won't always trigger, particularly on only 3 hull. That defensive reroll can also matter. Sear seems like he's going to be fairly easy to outflank.

Treacherous is a trap card, in my view. Trigged it only once since I've started playing CIS.

10 hours ago, Vector Strike said:

Treacherous is a trap card, in my view. Trigged it only once since I've started playing CIS.

Treacherous is also a geometric card. Some stuff like Heroic or Lone Wolf or Fanatical, you can figure out arithmetically. You can crunch the probability numbers, and figure out how good it is.

Treacherous, however, depends on board geometry. Mathematically, the effect can be strong, particularly if you use it when an opponent obstructs their own attack with a friendly ship. But in order to actually understand Treacherous, you've got to put it on the board.

I don't mind trying it a few times, but yeah... seems hard to make use of.

17 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I may have to try out the Sear/Kraken version, but I'd probably go with Soulless One over Impervium.

This is the precise build I put together (actually before this thread started). Let me know how it goes; I'm very curious and would consider buying in if it works.

Lots of good thoughts. It is pretty expensive to try. I haven't really used the Buick much. I'm sure Grevious is a terror in Epic.

Is the dial really better than the Kihrax? Personal opinion, I guess.

I think Treacherous is going to be better when you face a lot of enemy. If you can fire through one of their ships and give it a Strain, it's great. Need to ensure there are enough enemy and they are together. Not so much in 200 pt games. The larger the game, the better.

I also think Grevious should be a flanker and not take Treacherous. Outmaneuver is probably the most synergistic. Daredevil could work well. 2 blue bank and then 1 hard boost can do well for turning and try for the flank. I would have to see it on the table, though.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Lots of good thoughts. It is pretty expensive to try. I haven't really used the Buick much. I'm sure Grevious is a terror in Epic.

Is the dial really better than the Kihrax? Personal opinion, I guess.

I think Treacherous is going to be better when you face a lot of enemy. If you can fire through one of their ships and give it a Strain, it's great. Need to ensure there are enough enemy and they are together. Not so much in 200 pt games. The larger the game, the better.

I also think Grevious should be a flanker and not take Treacherous. Outmaneuver is probably the most synergistic. Daredevil could work well. 2 blue bank and then 1 hard boost can do well for turning and try for the flank. I would have to see it on the table, though.

Dial better than the Kihraxz? Not really. Net maneuverability better due to the Boost action (linked boost, too!)? Sure.

//

Outmaneuver is kinda nice in theory, but so expensive.

Low sample size, but Treacherous has been disappointing. Can't see bringing it over Crack Shot, but Treacherous is also the kind of thing that folks *should* try out a little on casual day, just to get a feel for it.

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

If you can fire through one of their ships and give it a Strain, it's great.

They have to fire through one of their own ships at the ship upgraded with Treacherous for their ship to gain a Strain.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

They have to fire through one of their own ships at the ship upgraded with Treacherous for their ship to gain a Strain.

No. It can be any ship...yours or theirs. It does give that ship in between a Strain, so it's better if it's theirs.

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

No. It can be any ship...yours or theirs. It does give that ship in between a Strain, so it's better if it's theirs.

Yes but it only triggers when you defend not when they do. It's entirely at your opponent's discretion.

10 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

No. It can be any ship...yours or theirs. It does give that ship in between a Strain, so it's better if it's theirs.

The ship with Treacherous does not apply its effect unless it is the one being attacked. "While you defend". Contrast to:

7 hours ago, heychadwick said:

If you can fire through one of their ships and give it a Strain, it's great.

Or are you speaking from the position of the upgraded ship's opponent in which case it is "great" for you as the opponent?