Folks,

I thought I'd put out one of the lists we're thinking of running at Gen Con.

We tried to come up with something that was flexible in deployment since the units don't need to be next to each other to be effective (beyond what is normally required to cover a flank).

I figure Obcasiums to scare off heroes and the Reanimates Archers can suppress enemy archers with their I4 attack. We've gone back and forth about Wind Rune vs. Tempered Steel, but I think we like Wind Rune as the deficiency in Waiqar Inspiration tokens means you typically get only 1-2 uses with TS per game. We took Thirst with Lord V to make him scary for lower defense units although we're still wondering if Entrancing Gaze would be better...

Finally, the Wormstar is something we're not terribly familiar with but we figure that the way it's built, it can take advantage of the Blight's from the archers to deliver Mortal Strikes or just deliver hits if not fighting high defense units.

Thoughts???

wormstar attacks at 5. Therefore, it is not most terrific unit on the field unless you dispatch runner it. Without ardus it loses a lot of potential synergy - first, 2*1 dk with dispatch attack even at 8Init, second - ardus himself standing next to this monster can and will become killing machine.

Without this, 3*2 with just a dispatch is not the worst choice. quite cheap, potentially powerful addition to wormstar efficiency doubler.

I have tried the 2x2 worms a fair bit and am consistently impressed. It puts out good damage, doesn't get stuck in terrain like a 3-wide unit, and is tough. Your opponent will ignore it at their peril and it's not an outrageous points sink. Pairs well with Lord V. I used to play defensively with Waiqar, but no more!

I thought it would pair well with Lord V as well. He can move quick and slash disrupting enemy planning. As you noted, the Worms are a big damage sponge- 36 points for the unit is only second to the Spined Threshers although if you put three vitality tokens on a Golemstar, it can take 44 damage. When you get to high defenses (3 or 4), you can also get even more effective health due to that damage threshold.

I love @Skaflok ‘s thoughts about having someone nearby with Dispatch Runner to possibly get an early attack. Ardus is also a natural pairing and I use it in some of my other Waiqar armies. I felt like the 10 points of upgrades (Combat Ingenuity + Master-Crafted Weapons) is a bit much to make it turn hits into surges, but I didn’t want to make it a Blight dealer. That’s too much firepower to sit in the background watching things happen...

I’m not sure about the Archer block, though. I was thinking of trying to make it a couple of smaller units so I could possibly throw out more blight, but then you’re paying for CI twice and points just seem to evaporate.

I think every faction's 2x2 Seige units are really good. Although Threshers win the cake for Armor x Wounds, the most cost effective units for health in the game are the siege units. I've long thought that worms are really good, and I'm surprised my opponents have not run more of them. And the 2x2 has a nice damage output while also being able to plop itself down in terrain, manipulate any terrain options that provide extra movement (when you draw the Uthuk player's Raider Tent, e.g.), while also not getting caught in the same way that a 3x2 can. It is a good unit.

Interacting with comments above:

My primary opponent does the 3x2 Raven Standard as well. Maybe it is simply how my playstyle matches up to his, but it always seems like he gets off several good uses of Tempered Steel. In my opinion, it is the first two that really count, either making a large 9 damage attack, or correcting a bad roll so that it gets 6 damage.

Other general observations. These are simply things to think through with the list and list-design, not necessarily objections.

1. Upgrades. Total points in upgrades is 44. I'm curious how normal this ends up being across lists, or across factions. I seem to recall the post-Worlds analysis last year highlighting the leading Uthuk lists running lighter on upgrades. That balance between upgrades and trays on the table is a delicate one, which leads us to...

2. Total trays and units: There are three sizeable meaningful units, and a medium-priced tool. Basically, everything in the list has to deliver, and if it gets taken out in some fashion, a huge chunk of damage in the list has fallen apart. If someone brings five units, can the list readjust to handle it. You've got two melee units that are closing in on something, but does their third flank you? Do the Death Knights deliver Obcasiums? Do the worms take some range damage before engaging?

Or to put both of those together, would some arrangement of the upgrades get you to a 2x2 Death Knights, and might that extra health put you a bit further over the top while not really reducing your overall damage output much?

Your observations are spot on. It’s a concern I have with any list where I have 4 units- I always feel like my flank is exposed. As you are certainly aware, the deployment can really affect that. If you have a board edge or piece of terrain that you can use as a shield, so much the better. In the game we played (posted in the bat rep), the Daqan got in two flank shots (with Rune Golems, no less), both of which made a difference in the game.

I’m also worried about including too many upgrades and not enough units. For example, if I went with Tempered Steel on the Worms and banked an Inspiration token on the first turn, would I get essentially the same benefit? What if I took Rank Discipline off of the Knights? That’s 11 of the 18 points to make it a 2x2 unit? The problem is finding the other 7... Maybe take Wind Rune off of the Archers and use my bid point to make it.

Now the Death Knights are a real threat and can stick around in combat. The tradeoff is that the Archers can get overrun and I still only have 4 units. @Skaflok suggested Ardus instead of Lord V to pick up some synergy with the Worms. That is also an interesting choice as the difference in upgrades and unit cost would mean I don’t have to mess with the Archers, keeping them highly mobile.

Maybe instead of upgrading the Knights, I add in another Worm to act as a Blight/blocker?

Thoughts???

Reanimate Archers [45] 3x2
Tempered Steel [3]
Raven-Standard Bearer [3]
Close Quarters Targeting [3]
Total Unit Cost: 54

Lord Vorunthul [40] 1x1
Dimodian Blades [5]
Thirst of Bilehall [5]
Total Unit Cost: 50

Carrion Lancers [46] 2x2
Tempered Steel [3]
Total Unit Cost: 49

Death Knights [42] 2x2
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Total Unit Cost: 47

There's an option. I think it somewhat depends upon whether you want the DK as a Obcasium's delivery, or if you want them to be able to take out their opponent in a straight-up fight. I have a friend who runs Dimodian Blades on the Death Knights and puts Fortuna's on Lord V. What it does is make for one extremely scary DK stack, one that on red runes can put a good shot out even if whittled to one tray. In a meta where banes fly at the start of the game, I prefer to be less dependent at the start of the game on exhaustible upgrades, because you may lose one turn of rally from it.

The 3x2 Reanimate stack seems made for TS, and I think it is either Wind Rune or CQT, but not both. They are basically the upgrade that answers "what do I do if something threatens my archers?" Wind Rune gets them out of the way, CQT just has them stand there and take it. Being able to threaten 9 damage consistently is a threat that is hard to ignore.

It is tough to get everything. I'm wary of the DR Skaflok proposes because what you really want is multiple targets to DR.

I love this. CQT or Wind Rune but not both. CQT is kind of a “stand and take it” option but with TS and Raven Standard Bearer, you can throw out 9 damage on I4.

10 hours ago, Vergilius said:

The 3x2 Reanimate stack seems made for TS, and I think it is either Wind Rune or CQT, but not both. They are basically the upgrade that answers "what do I do if something threatens my archers?" Wind Rune gets them out of the way, CQT just has them stand there and take it. Being able to threaten 9 damage consistently is a threat that is hard to ignore.

It is tough to get everything. I'm wary of the DR Skaflok proposes because what you really want is multiple targets to DR.

I agree. Thirst was put there actually for no reason, it can as well be switched to dimodian blades so vorunthul becomes a valid target for dispatch.

in dire straits, even RArchers can take advantage of dispatch to have a chance to add unexpected 3-6 damage on enemy that engaged them.

Still I prefer 2*1 DK's with dispatch (and ardus) OR bigger block (2*2) with dispatch still: they can fight and add attack on many initiative segments.

Reanimates infantry 3*2 is just in case Ardus's not around.

that is something to try. even single worm can be a badass in this list. Good bodyguard for ardus.

If Ardus delivers succesfully at least two strikes he's good (paid for himself) with CI and MCW on nearby worms ( I saw him deal 10-12 damage per strike). If archers are close, even better - as every two surges turn into blight. Thanks to wind rune this army has necessary mobility. 5 units are to make sure neither flank is too much exposed, and no unit here can be ignored.

I like it. Ardus with Dimodian is good and nice synergy with the upgraded Wormstar. Dispatch Runner from the DK’s is a great idea as well. They can use it at a variety of points in the turn. I think I like CQT + TS in place of Wind Rune, but that’s just a personal preference. The single worm is a great way to put out blight tokens and act as a blocker.