Really can't compare a 'yena to a torrent due to the factions they're in

Basically, landing struts and probe droids MAKE the hyena (into anything that isn't just ESC 2.0). The Torrent, despite statline similarities, plays nothing like it.

Now, I do feel there are two overcosted hyenas: bombard and 32-c

I have no idea what compelled FFg to price the bombard above the Seperatist. It's a simple fact that it's MUCH more difficult to hit with far more range limited mines than with ordnance.

And 32-c...well, it's amazing fun. 42 points amazing fun? Yeesh, I thought 35 points would've been conservative

But these are also FFG's first real attempta at pilot specific upgrade bars. Hopefully they'll come down in price as they can't circumvent their piddly 2-die primaries like other 'yenas

More messing around, based on the idea of Discord missiles + Ions.

Baktoid Prototype (28)
Fire-Control System (2)
Ion Missiles (4)
Discord Missiles (4)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3

Techno Union Bomber (26)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
Discord Missiles (4)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 42 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Baktoid Prototype (28)
Fire-Control System (2)
Ion Missiles (4)
Discord Missiles (4)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3

Techno Union Bomber (26)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
Conner Nets (6)
Delayed Fuses (1)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3

Techno Union Bomber (26)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
Conner Nets (6)
Delayed Fuses (1)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3


Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z329X113W101W224W108WY324X135W224W221W108WY329X113W101W224W108WY324X135WW68W236WY324X135WW68W236W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Really can't compare a 'yena to a torrent due to the factions they're in

Basically, landing struts and probe droids MAKE the hyena (into anything that isn't just ESC 2.0). The Torrent, despite statline similarities, plays nothing like it.

Now, I do feel there are two overcosted hyenas: bombard and 32-c

I have no idea what compelled FFg to price the bombard above the Seperatist. It's a simple fact that it's MUCH more difficult to hit with far more range limited mines than with ordnance.

And 32-c...well, it's amazing fun. 42 points amazing fun? Yeesh, I thought 35 points would've been conservative

But these are also FFG's first real attempta at pilot specific upgrade bars. Hopefully they'll come down in price as they can't circumvent their piddly 2-die primaries like other 'yenas

I mean, I keep seeing people use 42C and thinking "Jesus this thing is awful". The entire point of having a drone carry your tac relay would be to benefit from, and contribute to, netoworked calculations, but if you're using its pilot ability, it isn't doing that. It also can't carry any secondary weapons, so 42pts of 2 red dice and you can tell a disposable ship to do a thing by using your action...so much meh on this thing right now.

Bombardment is almost certainly costed as it is because of Trajectory sim, but that doesn't make it more appealing. Has the same issue of 42C in that it still be a lot of points of 2 red dice, so you really need those bombs to do something.

404 is a more of pocket ace than a real drone. It's a ship that you can't ignore, but has little interaction with it's swarm brothers (and is also the only drone that isn't I1 or I3 making maneuvering a little more awkward if you want to use it with a lot of other drones).

Bak is the best generalist named droid. Pilot ability is quite useful and it has a lot of options (Barrage and Diamond Borons are top picks, but it does well with really any non-Discord missile). Only real issue is that it can't carry probe droids and kind of really wants all those early locks out on the field.

Honestly, the best one is just the generic TUB. Can carry any ordinance you want, a dirt cheap probe droid deliverer, can rock torps for a little more oomph (and to give you lock based missiles to allow it's calculates to be more freely spent) and can carry cheap missiles like ESCs or Discords. Sep bombers are good, but at 5hp and with networked calcs, I don't myself wishing for higher initiative because they're suitable annoying to PS kill and I'm fine saving 3pts on a TUB.

On 7/28/2019 at 4:05 AM, Wazat said:

...But if you just want to win tournaments, do what tournament winners do and netlist -- other people have the winning fleets solved pretty quickly after any points update. And the tournament records back ESC vulture swarms, not Discord. ****, most Hyena options are total junk by that metric, which is what players in this thread have been talking about when they say X or Y pilot is a trap. I'm fond of bombardment drones, and the tournament players probably are not.

I do take issue with this. I think that too many of the higher end tournament players don't really check out the odd or unusual types of ships you can go for. Yes, they are good players, but they don't always try everything out. The general attitude is that the best of the best have looked at everything and know everything, so if they don't use something, it isn't good. I think of biophysical who practiced at home with double Tie Defenders before they had any fix and came in top 4 in the first event he showed up in. People said he was a "fluke", but others started to have results.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think all the top players have tried every combo. There are still many undiscovered lists out there and trying something funky and practicing should not be discounted. Otherwise the meta gets stale.

Tournament wise, people do love playing Aces....aces who Barrel Roll. Just for that matter, Discord Missiles might not be the best as people can just BR off of them. Still, against the right list, they are brutal! I would love to see them put on a VT-49 Decimator list! One with just one other ship. Maybe nuke the ace with ordinance and put a Discord on the big guy.

On 7/28/2019 at 4:34 AM, Blail Blerg said:

I agree. I wish there was more diversity in Seps. I think that should start by realigning some of those points. Also, naked ships are important to get right. Especially like Vultures, how much is that body actually worth?

The end product of a naked ship could be to be blockers.

Well, we are going to get the Nantek bug ship soon. Personally, I got into Separatists just for the Droids.

EDIT: I was just realizing that the bug ship with Tractor Beams will make Mines and Discord Missiles more fun.

FFG adjusted things recently with the Vultures and lowered all their prices, but made the ESC more expensive. So, I think they are getting the worth of naked Vultures. I mean, Trade Fed Vultures are now 19 points?!?!? That's crazy.

On 7/26/2019 at 2:59 PM, Wazat said:

When DBS-404 can move into place and calculate, then be coordinated by DBS-32C to barrel roll into position and chain into a lock, and then get another calculate from DFS-311, that 6-dice adv proton torp hits amazingly hard. The free calculate and token passing also helped with discord missiles, and just general effectiveness. Anyone dissing 32C for being too pricey, you're crazy. That coordinate at start of engagement is ridiculously helpful, very good timing and an easy cost.

I play against the same people too often. This trick would work for only a short bit of time. Still, if I practiced with it on them....and then went to a tournament, I am sure I could surprise a lot of people. Tournaments aren't used to new tricks and these guys thrive off knowing the odds of their list vs. another known factor.

2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I play against the same people too often. This trick would work for only a short bit of time. Still, if I practiced with it on them....and then went to a tournament, I am sure I could surprise a lot of people. Tournaments aren't used to new tricks and these guys thrive off knowing the odds of their list vs. another known factor.

It's not really a trick you can do much about, though. Engagement phase coordinate basically guarantees locks, and generally is very good about lining shots up with engagement phase rolls. It's great for any kind of torpedoes; not just adv 404

32-c has a very potent ability, especially in combination with the yena's roll + lock

42 points potent, though? Probably not

Re: Discord missiles: a lot of good points have been made already for and against it, which I won’t rehash. But in my experience I’m still a fan of them, especially now that they’re cheaper than ESC. I think a lot of people overlook 2 things when evaluating Discord Missiles:

1) you have perfect board state knowledge when you launch them. As long as you can judge distances accurately you know if you’ll hit with them or not.

2) you still get your regular attack, and thanks to Networked Calculations you nearly always have access to calc tokens to mod with. So really, to compare Discord missiles to ESC, ESC gives you +1D to your attack (since without it you’d still have a 2D attack against the target) and decent chances of modding into an extra crit, while Discord gives you a 2D attack +1 auto-crit.

Re: 32C: having played a few rounds with 32C I think he’s totally worth his points. Remember, he’s essentially the Separitist’s version of Rebel Fenn Rau, except that 32C can’t be out bidded for initiative, and Fenn costs 10 points (!) more than 32C does. It’s also pretty easy to putting struts on 32C and just land on a rock near the engagement and coordinate the day away while getting +1D to your defense rolls thanks to attacks being obstructed by the rock you’re sitting on.

So before you scoff at 33C’s price point, try him out. Put him in a list with another ship that likes to be coordinated at the start of engagement (like 404 or Grievous or any of the infiltrators) and give it a go and then decide if you think he’s worth the points.

32c also gives you red jam which is funny with probes

Red is bad, but that's why struts exist!

Mainly, 32-c trades damage for a large degree of flexibility.

Scavenging Pack

(28) Baktoid Prototype [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
Points: 35

(29) Separatist Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(9) Plasma Torpedoes
(5) DRK-1 Probe Droids
Points: 44

(29) Separatist Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 43

(42) DBS-32C [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(10) Kraken
Points: 53

(19) Trade Federation Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
(1) Grappling Struts
Points: 25

Total points: 200

Alternatively, it may be good to try 32-c without a relay. Seems like heresy, I know, but 42 points of 2-die primary is easier to swallow than 52. Suppose it depends on how many ships you're bringing.

In the above list, dropping kraken and dropping down to a proton tub would get you 404 with APTs.

So that's the thing with 32-c.

32-c may not be costed correctly now, but its not a bad ship. Its actually a great ability and really interesting design. That differs from a lot of other pilots in the game that are trash and will always be trash because their ability sucks, or their initiative isn't right, or something. 32-c just needs to find the sweet spot and I am positive that 32-c is paying the Rebel Fenn Rau tax based on the strength of perfect information coordinate.

38 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

32-c just needs to find the sweet spot and I am positive that 32-c is paying the Rebel Fenn Rau tax based on the strength of perfect information coordinate.

I was about to make this exact comparison: You think 42 is bad, try 52! Same agility and health, worse dial, decent ability but quite difficult to use in practice and much less effective in 2e than it was in 1e. Crew vs Tactical Relay probably favors 32c as well, and Fenn doesn't even have any offensive ability beyond the 2-primary anyway, though he does get a rear arc. Both could use a decrease but 32c seems a tad closer to viable. Of course I don't want to live in a world where perfect-info-coordinate is common, but I like having it as a viable (costly) option to shake things up.

5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I do take issue with this. I think that too many of the higher end tournament players don't really check out the odd or unusual types of ships you can go for. Yes, they are good players, but they don't always try everything out. The general attitude is that the best of the best have looked at everything and know everything, so if they don't use something, it isn't good. I think of biophysical who practiced at home with double Tie Defenders before they had any fix and came in top 4 in the first event he showed up in. People said he was a "fluke", but others started to have results.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think all the top players have tried every combo. There are still many undiscovered lists out there and trying something funky and practicing should not be discounted. Otherwise the meta gets stale.

I take issue with it too, but when someone is being very on-the-nose with "is it good", I've learned to point them to the tournament players and wash my hands of it. They haven't tested every combo, and there's probably a sleeper hit out there somewhere that they won't find with that attitude, but "do what tournament players do" is the easy answer for people looking for a hard, clear-cut answer to whether they should put something on the table in a serious fight. Not everyone has time (or patience) to test stuff themselves, after all, and netlisting bypasses a lot of uncertainty and spinning of one's wheels.

Plus, my version of "good" would cause a tournament player's blood vessels to burst with indignant rage. This has in fact happened several times on these forums (my god, so much blood!!! when does the bleeding stop!?!), and I'm sure I'm on a few people's lists of posters to watch out for and correct at every conceivable opportunity. There's one guy who posts in my threads just to tell me things like "get over it" and stop talking about, say, neat Kestal lists, because she's garbage. (at least that's how it feels every single time I see him post). It is deeply discouraging, and one of the reasons I try to steer new players far away from these forums and make sure the wiki is a safe, comfortable space to just talk and ask questions.

I fly off-meta stuff looking for something fun and interesting, not looking for the tournament-winning fleets (hence my love of discord missiles, bombardment drone, wullffwarro, etc). Worse, when something is genociding at tournaments, I avoid it because I prefer to play against my fellow filthy casuals, and a lot of tournament stuff just isn't a fun game for either side. When my opponent's response is "I am straight up not having a good time", it's time to switch fleets. I started to feel really bad when 1.0's Triple Auzitucks turned out to be a brutal tournament winner instead of a fun, quirky sideshow. I still love auzitucks for their playstyle, but they were deeply unfun to play against before the 2.0 nerf.

Sometimes it takes some time for something quirky to become recognized as top-meta. 1.0 Jumpmasters were the kings of quirk at first, until people started tinkering and realized their potential, starting a multi-year effort to nerf them back to appropriate power levels. Stuff like Handbreak Han probably started the same way -- "hey I have this neat combo and I OH GOD THAT'S CRAZY". So yea, tournament players absolutely should be experimenting and pushing stuff to its limit, and a lot of the rules they use to analyze stuff seems like bad philosophy to me. But I'm not keen on correcting them because I do not care for the tournament scene, so it's okay with me if they completely miss something awesome.

To me, what matters is how something actually plays on the table in real games, not how it looks on paper or whether other people have found the combo before, or approve. Sometimes all the hard-and-fast analysis/comparison rules, devotion to mathwing and jousting rating, etc sounds to me like "you have too much black bile, we need to bleed and purge you". Nobody's finding penicillin that way. But as long as I'm not the one on the operating table, they can say and believe what they want, doesn't hurt me.

And as said above, at any time a minor points tweak could cause massive upheaval. A lot of the stuff that doesn't impress people now could be a monster in a few months when it goes down in price, or combos with newly released ships or cards. And how long was Handbreak Han possible before it was discovered? There's always going to be undiscovered stuff out there. Instead of worrying about whether the tournament players have all the answers, I'm more interested in the process of discovery. It's really freaking fun to explore and look for something surprisingly good or interesting. And usually that's tolerated -- there's room in the game for casual players. But as my experiences on this forum have taught me, I'm weird and I almost don't belong here. The only reason I'm not banned is because technically the forum rules don't allow banning me just because I'm playing the game wrong. Thank god.

11 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I fly off-meta stuff looking for something fun and interesting, not looking for the tournament-winning fleets (hence my love of discord missiles, bombardment drone, wullffwarro, etc). Worse, when something is genociding at tournaments, I avoid it because I prefer to play against my fellow filthy casuals, and a lot of tournament stuff just isn't a fun game for either side.

I really like your attitude. I think there are actually a lot of people here in the same boat, but many bend to the demands of the competitive environment when it is required. I want to see more people play casually more often, and my FLGS is pretty good about that.

11 minutes ago, Wazat said:

When my opponent's response is "I am straight up not having a good time", it's time to switch fleets. 

I remember this happened to me exactly one time back in 1.0. I was trying out my new VCX and ran a double-tapping Autoblaster/Accuracy Corrector Ghost and killed my opponent's Talonbane Cobra in one round with no dice because he didn't realize how it worked. It just felt awful. I never ran a VCX against him in 1.0 again, and every time I used it afterward it was with Dorsal Turret. Having fun beats winning games any day.

12 minutes ago, Wazat said:

So yea, tournament players absolutely should be experimenting and pushing stuff to its limit, and a lot of the rules they use to analyze stuff seems like bad philosophy to me.

This this this 100% this. Fly what you love and get good with it. I have a Dash list I'm working on now. Still tinkering but I'll be taking it to tabletop this week and we'll see. Who knows?

One thing you have to keep in mind about competitive viability is that lists are judged in accordance to how they (and their players) fare over the LONG course of big tournies

So, anyone who's faced a wake of Vultures knows to respect them. Playing that many ships over more than half a day, though, is a whole other challenge atop of the opponents' you're facing.

This is why I focus mainly on mods moreso than what people deem competitive (y'all know how much I LOVE dice). CiS is super quirky and therefore takes more time to come to terms with (especially given the extra effort involved with probe droids), but Lord knows you better respect fully modded Torps of the 4-to-6(!) dice variety

ESCs require the least work to utilize and they're pretty effective, so they'll probably see 99% of competitive table time. For the rest of us not engaged in entire days or weekends of xwing and a time, the number of "viable" lists will skyrocket

All-day tournaments wear me out, even the fun ones like CaC. You have to train your mental endurance and be very familiar and comfortable with your list to play the really long ones. Complicated and mentally-taxing lists are not good for that, unless you're very well-prepared. I especially respect the guys who take something like fragile aces, where you have to be thinking straight at all times or the game goes straight to crap fast.

BTW, I want to say I'm not hostile to tournament players. I just bristle when someone says I have to play at that level or be forced to build lists for only that; I don't like the few that are immensely toxic. It's worth taking a moment to not lump everyone into that same category or speak too generally. Sorry for any time I've come off that way. I'm just used to fighting a few people who have very... brutish attitudes toward non-pro-level players.

BTW, I haven't fired the Diamond-Boron missiles yet. How's everyone feeling about them from experience? Thinking about 1.0's Saturation Salvo has me worried, but 2.0 has a lot more swarms and formation flying. And 1.0's was all about missing, not hitting. This seems like a better package, but I haven't gotten to field a list with it yet.

58 minutes ago, Wazat said:

All-day tournaments wear me out, even the fun ones like CaC. You have to train your mental endurance and be very familiar and comfortable with your list to play the really long ones. Complicated and mentally-taxing lists are not good for that, unless you're very well-prepared. I especially respect the guys who take something like fragile aces, where you have to be thinking straight at all times or the game goes straight to crap fast.

BTW, I want to say I'm not hostile to tournament players. I just bristle when someone says I have to play at that level or be forced to build lists for only that; I don't like the few that are immensely toxic. It's worth taking a moment to not lump everyone into that same category or speak too generally. Sorry for any time I've come off that way. I'm just used to fighting a few people who have very... brutish attitudes toward non-pro-level players.

BTW, I haven't fired the Diamond-Boron missiles yet. How's everyone feeling about them from experience? Thinking about 1.0's Saturation Salvo has me worried, but 2.0 has a lot more swarms and formation flying. And 1.0's was all about missing, not hitting. This seems like a better package, but I haven't gotten to field a list with it yet.

The thing with DBM, even if the ability isn't useful...its a 3 die, R2-3 munition just like ESC for only one point more. Sure, you need a target lock instead of calculate, and you don't get the crit modifier...but it also has three charges. When you do land DBMs its pretty cool.

Personally, I LOVE dbm and I think the baktoid is perfect for it

Dbm's "problem" is you only have one shot (but two opprotunities) with its ability before you have to reload, as it eats a charge to fire AND to trigger.

But that extra effect is GOLD because it affects it initial target!!!11!1!1 the fact that it does made me so happy when ffg first previewed it

anyway, I think of dbm as a one-shot with two chances of triggering or, in the best of cases, a one-shot + an extra ESC. Reloading back two charges for the ability is painful...but the Baktoid won't ever last long enough to have to! (Yes, that's why they're perfect for each other)

DBMs are my favorite Ordnance because I believe FFG did them perfectly

They're 3-dice (dodging the protorp problem),

flexible (ability is optional; good against any number of targets),

not 'cheap' (can't ping aces off of an Arc hit) but simultaneously abusable (hit 1 agility target = your yenas immune to the splash damage!)

They're a solid 6 points, which is just bloody perfect

They're two-slotted and unique, so they won't be spammed in every goddang list (which also allows them to be so well priced!)

I personally cannot see myself running CIS without a DBM baktoid (provided I got probes or passives + kraken). They're economical and essentially as effective as (if not more than) the 40 point Proton tub

19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Personally, I LOVE dbm and I think the baktoid is perfect for it

Dbm's "problem" is you only have one shot (but two opprotunities) with its ability before you have to reload, as it eats a charge to fire AND to trigger.

But that extra effect is GOLD because it affects it initial target!!!11!1!1 the fact that it does made me so happy when ffg first previewed it

anyway, I think of dbm as a one-shot with two chances of triggering or, in the best of cases, a one-shot + an extra ESC. Reloading back two charges for the ability is painful...but the Baktoid won't ever last long enough to have to! (Yes, that's why they're perfect for each other)

DBMs are my favorite Ordnance because I believe FFG did them perfectly

     They're 3-dice (dodging the protorp problem),

flexible (ability is optional; good against any number of targets),

    not 'cheap' (can't ping aces off of an Arc hit) but simultaneously abusable (hit 1 agility target = your yenas immune to the splash damage!)

They're a solid 6 points, which is just bloody perfect

They're two-slotted and unique, so they won't be spammed in every goddang list (which also allows them to be so well priced!)

I personally cannot see myself running CIS without a DBM baktoid (provided I got probes or passives + kraken). They're economical and essentially as effective as (if not more than) the 40 point Proton tub

So I'm trying Sear with Soulless One and TA-175, 4x Sep Drones with struts, 1x TFD with struts, and DFS-404 with APT, probe droids, and struts tonight. Do you believe that the DBM bak is close enough to 404 with APT and struts that I should trade it for 404 and bump my 5th drone to a Sep?

Right now I plan to use 404 as a trailing hitter that can close with the enemy when they get furballed with the rest of the list.

404 with apt is about as opposite as you could get from a DBM baktoid

They have opposite extremes of effective range and opposite playstyles (dbm baktoid is perfectly at home on a nice cosy rock, away from the action...but 404...)

So I don't think you could swap one for the other without fundamentally altering how your entire list plays

19 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

The thing with DBM, even if the ability isn't useful...its a 3 die, R2-3 munition just like ESC for only one point more. Sure, you need a target lock instead of calculate, and you don't get the crit modifier...but it also has three charges. When you do land DBMs its pretty cool.

Actually, needing a lock instead of a green token is a major concern. A common munition scrub can't pull that off because of the initiative-lock conundrum. ESC is valuable because you don't have to call your target or worry about range on the approach. You don't even need Passive Sensors or someone to coordinate you. You just calculate, then fire when it's your turn. That's the real reason ESC sees use when so many other missiles don't. Also the reason Barrage Rockets and even Prockets are useful -- locks are a real problem for low-init ships, so munitions that don't lock (and don't need passive sensors) are just better. They have a built-in 1.0 Deadeye. Munition Failsafe is also better for focus/calc munitions, because you know what your final roll is when making the choice (you don't with a lock munition, since you don't know how well your lock modification will play out; you do with green tokens).

Passive Sensors will help a lot though for the 3 ships that can use them together. For 37 points you can field a Baktoid Prototype with DBM and PS, and assuming you fly with buddies who can share tokens, you'll hopefully live to fire. From there you need to hit so that the secondary effect procs, so again, more droids around you sharing tokens will help a lot. Then maybe you'll want to reload so you have both charges available for next time, if there is a next time of course.

A gunboat can run the same combo, but with its own quirks. 41 points (+4), but for a tougher ship with SLAM; it'll be a different experience, that's for sure. The third ship is the TIE Punisher for 47 points. Much steeper price, but that boat is built like a brick and adds the options to invest in Fifth Brother and/or Redline (though a DBM Redline may not be ideal; he really wants to throw lethal proton torps?). So for PS + DBM, it's Empire or Separatist. As an added bonus, all three ships sport Reload for times when they think they'll get another pass.

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

But that extra effect is GOLD because it affects it initial target!!!11!1!1 the fact that it does made me so happy when ffg first previewed it

Agreed. If you hit, you have a 50% chance of doing another damage to the initial target, in addition to maybe splashing some other nearby ships. It's nice if you managed to take the target down to 1 HP, and regardless of what's around it, you're probably willing to spend the charge on even odds to finish them off. I like that option, especially against, say, vulture swarms where I very frequently reduce the buggers to 1 HP and then never manage to land another hit again. (Hisss!!!)

CiS low I scrubs are different than normal because they got probe droids (ESC tubs are a great carrier)

Well flown probe droids are essentially LRS, which benefits even ESC carriers. Less well flown droids still basically extend your TL range far enough to lock higher I pilots regardless

Baktoids don't need passives because of this, and honestly I'd rather keep em cheap because they're fairly fragile

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

CiS low I scrubs are different than normal because they got probe droids

Well flown probe droids are essentially LRS. Less well flown droids still basically extend your TL range far enough to lock higher I pilots regardless

Baktoids don't need passives because of this, and honestly I'd rather keep em cheap because they're fairly fragile

I've really enjoyed running probe droids (404 has them in the mentioned list), but I've found that I either a) honed in on the one target I've locked early, to the detriment of better decisions or b) moved my locks later and lost the advantage. I flew two Baks together, one with prockets and one with DBMs, last night, and I stupidly moved both target locks to the same target from the initially locked lambda that was behind the fight - so when that target zigged out of arc, and another other target zagged (into a block and in arc), I couldn't use either munition on the blocked guy. It was a feels bad for sure, and then I rolled straight trash with no modifiers. There is something to be said for utilizing some patience and, in the swarm, sometimes just taking calculate and fueling you and your friends. If you aren't sure what is going to present in front of you.

Yea, I like PS simply because it's so, so dynamic. You don't have to make decisions that negatively affect your approach etc. You're not even worried about your victim dying before you get to shoot, as long as there are other victims in arc. You just delay your action until you're ready to fire, lock, and fire.

I've had the probe droids used against me and they're really cool. But they're definitely more complex, and calling your target a round or more early gives your opponents information that could be very damaging to your approach. That info was certainly helpful to me as the opponent. From more personal experience on the usage end, I know that with E-Wings I often have to lock the wrong target on purpose on the first round (with the intent to change the lock later) just so my opponent sends that ship fleeing/flanking instead of being squirrely with the one I want to murder.

I'm in the lovin'-on DBM camp. That extra point of damage has gotten me the kill on Recoil and on Kagi. And a Baktoid parked on a rock doesn't have quite the difficulty in grabbing/maintaining locks that other ordnance carriers do, especially if you've got a bunch of dirt-cheap Vultures hanging around to provide calculates to the Hyena's defense rolls. You can afford to take that lock, even at inopportune moments like being faced the wrong direction, and still reasonably expect to get the shot off. Or you could just throw Passive Sensors on there.

I wish I had me some Probe Droids, but I have made the very conscious decision that I didn't want another large base ship. Scum has me a little gun-shy of large bases, even if folks have been enjoying obvious success with Maul or Dooku.

23 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

I've really enjoyed running probe droids (404 has them in the mentioned list), but I've found that I either a) honed in on the one target I've locked early, to the detriment of better decisions or b) moved my locks later and lost the advantage. I flew two Baks together, one with prockets and one with DBMs, last night, and I stupidly moved both target locks to the same target from the initially locked lambda that was behind the fight - so when that target zigged out of arc, and another other target zagged (into a block and in arc), I couldn't use either munition on the blocked guy. It was a feels bad for sure, and then I rolled straight trash with no modifiers. There is something to be said for utilizing some patience and, in the swarm, sometimes just taking calculate and fueling you and your friends. If you aren't sure what is going to present in front of you.

That's why you spread locks and use energy shells and Bak protos. It doesn't hurt you to have locks and if they want to leave ships out of the joust, then you can shoot shells anyways and save the locks for later and as long as anyone has something locked, a Bak proto can daimond Boron or Barrage it. Let your opponent think they're clever, and then beat them anyways

18 hours ago, Wazat said:

lots of good and funny stuff

Yes, I think we would get along. That's why I started Shuttle Tydirium podcast. To be honest, I'm surprised no one else out there also decided to do a Casual podcast. Room enough for more than one.

14 hours ago, Wazat said:

I'm just used to fighting a few people who have very... brutish attitudes toward non-pro-level players.

Yeah, you joined in 2016. You should've seen it before you joined! It was utterly brutal at times. Still, these forums are much much better than reddit. They are downright civil in comparison to other forums. I've still had to block a few people and they still pop up enough. I would say that FFG forums are really not so bad. I have seen enough casuals around.

12 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

DBMs are my favorite Ordnance because I believe FFG did them perfectly

Yeah, I have been grooving on what you say. I STILL haven't had a chance to try them yet. Soon, I hope.

12 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

CiS low I scrubs are different than normal because they got probe droids (ESC tubs are a great carrier)

Well flown probe droids are essentially LRS, which benefits even ESC carriers. Less well flown droids still basically extend your TL range far enough to lock higher I pilots regardless

Low I is a danger for shooting last. I play against a lot of non-meta low Init lists. I have won games with my I3 guys.

11 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

I wish I had me some Probe Droids, but I have made the very conscious decision that I didn't want another large base ship. Scum has me a little gun-shy of large bases, even if folks have been enjoying obvious success with Maul or Dooku.

Agreed! I made a list with them and was pulling out my stuff....and I couldn't find a Probe Droid! I hate the large based ships, too. I'll have to go on ebay.