Really don't need to overburden poor 32-c like that 😛

New Squadron

(42) DBS-32C [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) TA-175
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 48

(21) Separatist Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
Points: 26

(21) Separatist Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
Points: 26

(21) Separatist Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
Points: 26

(28) Baktoid Prototype [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 37

(26) Techno Union Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
(5) DRK-1 Probe Droids
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 37

Total points: 200

Now, considering 32-c is weaker and more expensive than Sear...why bother?

Well, red jam (struts, baby!) And combat phase coordinate. Where do those synergize? With low I target-lock Ordnance ships! (Combat phase 'Yena roll --> lock --> pewpew )

In theory, you'd get the most out of 32-c via some protorp bombers. Borons are a cheaper alternative that won't skew your list as much

Incidentally...

Scavenging Pack

(42) DBS-32C [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) TA-175
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 48

(28) Baktoid Prototype [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(1) Landing Struts
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 37

(26) Techno Union Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
(5) DRK-1 Probe Droids
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 37

(29) Separatist Bomber [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(13) Proton Torpedoes
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 43

(30) DBS-404 [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) Energy-Shell Charges
Points: 35

Total points: 200

I haven't read the full thread yet, but I want to express the joy I've gotten from my hyena so far in a Furball game. I flew the Bombardment Drone first and had a grand old time launching a mine on one ship in front of me, then dropping a mine next round on someone behind me. Proximity Mines do such great damage and they're hard to avoid when a ship can zoom into place and launch them 1 forward. Those landing struts are great fun too! In the right situation that ship is abuse incarnate, like a separatist Constable Zuvio but with more slot diversity (and no spacetug, of course).

404 is also fun with adv proton torps, I imagine even more so in a swarm of buddies to provide calc tokens for attack and defense. But even flying him solo is a great way to scare opponents and open windows of opportunity for the team.

I'm thinking of picking up one or two more. I still haven't decided, and I need to get a few more games in and theory-craft some lists to see where that takes me.

ESC right now is a trap, especially on hyenas. Gonna try this tonight mostly cause I'm tired of dice not doing what I want. Plus it's kinda hilarious to see a ace panic with fighting i1s.

DBS-404 (30)
Homing Missiles (5)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Baktoid Prototype (28)
Passive Sensors (3)
Homing Missiles (5)
Discord Missiles (4)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Baktoid Prototype (28)
Passive Sensors (3)
Homing Missiles (5)
Discord Missiles (4)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Homing Missiles (5)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Homing Missiles (5)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Homing Missiles (5)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2


Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z326XW100W221WW237Y329X240W100W224WW237Y329X240W100W224WW237Y279X100W208WY279X100W208WY279X100W208W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

If you are wanting something that does involve punching through with dice, might I recommend this, also remember which of those poor vultures doesn't have landing struts cause it will matter.

Techno Union Bomber (26)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 40 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3

Techno Union Bomber (26)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 40 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3

Techno Union Bomber (26)
Plasma Torpedoes (9)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 20 Half Points: 10 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 20 Half Points: 10 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 20 Half Points: 10 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Ship total: 19 Half Points: 10 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z324X136WWWW237Y324X136WWWW237Y324X234WW221WW237Y279XW208WY279XW208WY279XW208WY279XWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

This though has been my most tested and successful list as of date with hyenas though

Wat Tambor (42)
TA-175 (5)
Soulless One (6)

Ship total: 53 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 4

DBS-404 (30)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 36 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 3

Separatist Drone (21)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Separatist Drone (21)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Separatist Drone (21)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Separatist Drone (21)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Separatist Drone (21)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z306XW239WW229Y326XWW221WW237Y343XW208WY343XW208WY343XW208WY343XW208WY343XW208W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

If you are gonna put hyenas into a list, there is never a good reason not to take probe droids. Being able to bring calculation tokens and a Target lock onto an enemy, even with two dice makes them have to weigh their options.

I'm not getting these ships to the table as often as I like, so here is a question for some of yall that have:

Along side a mini-swarm including DRK-1 probes which is more points efficient?:

DBS-404 w/ Energy Shell Charges and Landing Struts(or just Adv Proton Torps) 36 Points

Baktoid Prototype w/ Diamond Boron Missiles and FCS 36 Points

8 minutes ago, Burius1981 said:

I'm not getting these ships to the table as often as I like, so here is a question for some of yall that have:

Along side a mini-swarm including DRK-1 probes which is more points efficient?:

DBS-404 w/ Energy Shell Charges and Landing Struts(or just Adv Proton Torps) 36 Points

Baktoid Prototype w/ Diamond Boron Missiles and FCS 36 Points

Bak 100%. 404 doesn't play well with swarms. Also, don't bother with FCS. The Bak doesn't keep locks on things enough, you either kill it's target or it's using it's ability to lob missiles at other droids targets. Go with struts, Baks on rocks are hyper annoying.

16 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Bak 100%. 404 doesn't play well with swarms. Also, don't bother with FCS. The Bak doesn't keep locks on things enough, you either kill it's target or it's using it's ability to lob missiles at other droids targets. Go with struts, Baks on rocks are hyper annoying.

404 has been fine with swarms for me. Basically I treat 404 as a flanker, but I don't go too wide with it because no 3 banks and no Boost(I'm not sold on putting Afterburners on 404, just gives my opponent more points when he kills himself.)

I also like ESC or an Adv Proton Torp on 404. The fun thing about APT is that I take a lock on an Ace or fat ship early with the DRK probe and, so far, my opponents do their best to stay away from 404 with that ship. That 6 dice threat is plenty to make 404 the biggest bully on the playground, and when I've played against more swarmy/beefy lists 404 still flanks but has that sweet Barrel Roll > Target Lock to set up those big shots.

I haven't tried the DBM Baktoid, I'm not going to make my FLGS X-Wing night this week and I've been itchin' to try some ideas out. That Bak looks like a solid piece to add to a swarm on paper, I really want to give it a try.

On 7/22/2019 at 9:11 AM, Burius1981 said:

Bombardment Drones slapping Prox Mines onto enemy ships sounds fun, but Hyenas aren't so durable that they are guaranteed to live through the first engagement to pull that trick off. Trajectory Simulator makes this 32 point ship 42 points before bombs and makes it a 5 health points pinata for your opponent.

From experience, I can tell you it is pretty fun. IMO you want to either invest in Proximity Mines (39 points, 40 with Fuses), or in Proton Bombs + Trajectory + Fuses (49 points), with Landing Struts either way. Doing both and going over the 50 point mark may be too many points. The two styles are a bit contradictory (mines want you up close and bombs should be launched from a safe place, though if they chase you the mines suddenly become useful) and you want this ship flying under the radar (not loudly shouting that it's a points pinata as it charges into mining range). I did both while playing Furball simply because it's such a cheap ship that I needed some way to spend those points (and there was no advantage to a bid), but in a full game the ship is too delicate to run fat.

For a single point, Landing Struts make for a fun area denial that can sit in place and rotate, or detach any time. The proton bomb launcher works pretty well while on a rock because your ship clears stress every round, so you can just reload as often as needed (your 2-dice attack can be handy too though), and you can throw bombs out there early with a fuse to to make foes twitch when they plan that approach, giving you an easier time herding or ranging them into opportunistic positions for the rest of your team.

But the real monster is Prox Mines. I did a lot of damage just by flying up to foes to block or flank, and delivering a gift next round. For only 39 points, it's a good investment. That little hyena did a lot of damage with its mines. Fuses let you fly through your own mine, e.g. if you launch it ahead of you and realize you just barely missed your target or will hit an ally instead: put a fuse token on it and your teammate is safe to plow through, removing the fuse for when the enemy tumbles past.

IMO it's too bad there's only 2 charges on Prox Mines; I'd say adding a conner net wouldn't be a terrible choice (45-46 points), but once again, you're pushing your points toward 50 and, unlike the proton bomb launcher, this version wants to get up close instead of harassing from a distance. If you're surrounded by vultures or other token-sharing buddies you'll have a well-moded defense so it could work well. Or make sure to flank from among the rocks or have a higher-priority target nearby. That 5 hull feels a bit raw and vulnerable if the enemy decides to erase you.

I'm thinking about doing a double Hyena bombers list. Won't be competitive (probably), but I'm looking to have fun not win tournaments so that's fine. Thoughts on this?

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z325XW70WW236W237Y325X114W69WW236W237Y279X224W208WY279XW208WY305X126W222WW229&sn=Double Hyena Bombers&obs=

I figure start them with the bomb launcher apart from the team, to camp on an asteroid or fly around threatening foes with proton bombs while the droid swarm comes at a different angle. The mine layer is prepared to mess up anything that comes into range on the front or back. May or may not work out, but it'll be interesting.

Or perhaps should I swap one bomber for DBS-404 instead. Might be too much investment in device shenanigans. Thoughts?

@Wazat , I've been fooling around with similar sorts of lists, both single and double Bombards and Bombards mixed with Baktoids. And I still don't have a feel for it. Perhaps seven games in the last couple weeks? Sometimes it feels like things click together quite well and other games have been massive disappointments, regardless of which combination or what my opponent was flying. The Vultures feel pretty easy a straightforward to me - I know what I want from them and how to achieve it. The Hyenas on the other hand are resisting my efforts to completely and easily suss them out. I suspect that mixed forces are probably better, simply for handing you more tools to address opponents's varied lists. But for just plain jank and shenanigans, it's hard to beat the Bombard.

On 7/21/2019 at 10:10 AM, theBitterFig said:

I keep hearing good things about DRK Probe Droids. I don't have a great sense of it on table, though.

On 7/21/2019 at 10:56 AM, CRCL said:

You just slow-roll forward and send the probes in first to get your locks before you engage. It's a steal at 5pts on a Hyena who is unlikely to use his bomb slot anyway.

I recently tried a list with them - very helpful to keep your fragile little droid fighters out of the battle until it really matters, while still setting your opponent up for a big ol' ordnance strike when you get closer. It's awfully nice to have a lock before you get close enough to engage.

Last night I flew against a vulture swarm that had DBS-32C, DBS-404, and DFS-311. Three vultures had Discord Missiles too. Something like this but I'm unsure how the last 4 points were spent. It was really effective. It's hard to say for certain because dice variance severely favored my opponent a lot during the game game, so we're worried we didn't get an accurate test for it, but even so it did extremely well and I liked the combo it was running. Also it's a vulture swarm with excellent synergy, so it's hard to mess that up too much.

When DBS-404 can move into place and calculate, then be coordinated by DBS-32C to barrel roll into position and chain into a lock, and then get another calculate from DFS-311, that 6-dice adv proton torp hits amazingly hard. The free calculate and token passing also helped with discord missiles, and just general effectiveness. Anyone dissing 32C for being too pricey, you're crazy. That coordinate at start of engagement is ridiculously helpful, very good timing and an easy cost.

I think I want to include 32C whenever I have a bombardment drone laying mines, because that barrel roll + lock both lines him up for mining the foe next round, and gives him a better attack (or the chance to dodge arcs like an ace). That seems like a better use of a 2nd hyena than a 2nd bomber, though I'd have to test a bit to find out.

5 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Last  night I flew against a vulture swarm that had DBS-32C, DBS-404, and DFS-311. Three vultures had Discord Missiles too. Something like this but I'm unsure how the last 4 points were spent. It was really effective. It's hard to say for certain because dice variance severely favored my opponent a lot during the game game, so we're worried we didn't get an accurate test for it, but even so it did extremely well and I liked the combo it was ru  nning. Also it's a vulture swarm with excellent synergy, so it's hard to mess that up too much.

When DBS-404 can move into place and calculate, then be coordinated by DBS-32C to barrel roll into position and chain into a lock, and then get another calculate from DFS-311, that 6-dice adv proton torp hits amazingly hard. The free calculate and token passing also helped with discord missiles, and just general effectiveness. Anyone dissing 32C for being too pricey, you're crazy. That coord  inate at start of engagement is ridiculously helpful, very good timing and an easy cost. 

Shhhh!!!! 🤫 Quit giving away my secret strategies @Wazat !

Fyi, here was the exact list I flew:

Kamikaze Droid

(30) DBS-404 [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points: 36

(42) DBS-32C [Hyena-class Droid Bomber]
(5) TA-175
(1) Landing Struts
Points: 48

(23) DFS-311 [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(1) Grappling Struts
Points: 24

(19) Trade Federation Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(1) Grappling Struts
Points: 20

(19) Trade Federation Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(1) Grappling Struts
(4) Discord Missiles
Points: 24

(19) Trade Federation Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(1) Grappling Struts
(4) Discord Missiles
Points: 24

(19) Trade Federation Drone [Vulture-class Droid Fighter]
(1) Grappling Struts
(4) Discord Missiles
Points: 24

Total points: 200

And yes, the list turned out to be far more effective than I was expecting it to be, even accounting for the favorable dice rolls that first round (for everyone else’s info: that first round of combat I ended up with full hits on pretty much every single attack I made, while @Wazat rolled nothing but blanks and evades for defense. I almost felt bad for him. Almost. )

As you said, the combo of coordinating 404 at the start of engagement was beautiful. The next game I played, after you left, I had no trouble doing the same thing and get a 6-die APT shot off twice (thanks to reload), both times using the coordinate to barrel roll and line up the R1 in-arc shot. That game I did even better than I did against you, and that was with more average dice rolls.

So yeah, the moral of the story is: watch out for the 404/32C combo. It’s brutal/ beautiful (depending on your point of view).

@Herowannabe You monster!

The dice felt pretty devastating for much of that game, but that first round in particular hurt me with rolling blanks on nearly every attack and especially defense. Failing to take anything off the table until the final round and losing ships left & right on my side kept me from recovering. But I also really messed up my approach with Grievous, assuming you were going for the Sith Infiltrator, so his loss was deserved; you did a really good job with that coordinate of lining up a surprise deathblow on him.

I'm glad your 2nd game went well too, that means the fleet is looking pretty solid overall (it's not a fluke of dice luck).

That game in particular sold me on getting a 2nd Hyena. I really liked 32C supporting another hyena, be it 404 with APTs or a mine layer, and other vultures. Though I'd like to figure out something other than a vulture swarm... particularly when the Nantex comes out, I'm hoping to see more variety in separatist than vulture swarm variations. Mine-launching Hyenas and Nantex shenanigans sound like an exciting core to a list, so it's not just a sideshow to the vultures. But for now I might try 2-3 vultures with 2 hyenas and a couple belballub-a-dub-what's-its-spelling.

Discord missiles. not ESC?

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Discord missiles. not ESC?

Yes, they worked quite well against me.

3 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Yes, they worked quite well against me.

if you got a minute, can you explain how they work? My reading comprehension on the cards is kinda failing me

41 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

if you got a minute, can you explain how they work? My reading comprehension on the cards is kinda failing me

Spend a calc, place token using 3 straight or bank. If token ever overlaps enemy ship place in front or back guides, if it cannot be placed due to ships (friendly and enemy), obstacles or other buzz droids, the token dies and the enemy takes 1 normal hit. At I0, it deals a crit to every enemy at R0.

In practice, this card is mostly "spend a calc to do 1 damage". Occaisionally more, but not that often (either the token can't be placed and detonates or the target gets burned down too quickly). The advantage they offer over shells is pretty minimal TBH with the sizable disadvantage that they're one time use and you have to spend the calc to use them meaning no mods in the coming fight. Just been super meh on them vs. shells in every game.

If you're trying to get a flavor of bomber uses...

DBS-404 (30)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 42 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Wat Tambor (42)
Soulless One (6)

Ship total: 48 Half Points: 24 Threshold: 4

Bombardment Drone (32)
Proximity Mines (6)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3

Techno Union Bomber (26)
Plasma Torpedoes (9)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 36 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 3

Baktoid Prototype (28)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 35 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 3


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z326X134WW221WW237Y306XWWW229Y325XWW70WW237Y324X234WWWW237Y329XW238WWW237&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=coreasteroid1,core2asteroid4,core2asteroid5

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

if you got a minute, can you explain how they work? My reading comprehension on the cards is kinda failing me

Summary: It's a bit like a mine mixed with a condition card, except you launch it at the start of engagement instead of the system phase, and it waits until the end of engagement to deal its damage. Might last several rounds. Enemies can shoot it off.

At the start of engagement, spend a calculate token to launch it forward with a 3 straight or bank. If it touches an enemy ship then or later, it attaches to them. You want to attach it to their front so it stays on them next round, but you can attach it to their back in a pinch. If you can't place on the front or back because it overlaps an object on both sides, it dies and deals an auto-damage instead. Whenever they move, if they touch it again, it stays on them.

So for example, launch it on a foe and attach to its front guides. As long as you can place it on their front guides, they'll have to move through it next round, so it attaches to them again. If you attach to their back guides, you'll only get 1 round of damage (and then they move away without touching it again), and then it sits on the map as a hazard the foe has to worry about (like a small mine that only affects enemies).

There are several neat things about the card:

1. It's an auto-damage crit at the end of engagement, so their shields are likely to be down if you're shooting at them.
   1. There's things the enemy can do to get rid of it that same round (like spend a precious shot shooting at it) or later rounds (position so you can't put it on the front or place it at all), but often you get 1 - 2 auto-damage from it, which sits well with bomb lists.
2. It's not an attack; there's no defense roll and the enemy can't do anything to dodge it except manage range or position among other objects (and if you hit them and can't place it, you still get a free auto-damage).
3. After launching it, you still get your normal attack(s) this round. It takes your calculate token, but Separatist fleets are good at sharing those.
4. The launch straight 3 lands the token at about range 1.25 through 1.5 or so on the range ruler. The banks are likewise long -- the token hovers right around 1.5 range at a 45 degree angle. In practice, this is pretty easy to land on a victim IMO, especially for someone used to dropping/launching bombs.
   1. It works well on medium and large ships as well as small; the medium and large are great because they tend to not have barrel roll, they're fat targets to hit with the token, and they soak points so they don't necessarily have buddies around to play the position game.
   2. Ships with barrel roll and lots of space around them have the easiest time shaking it. Swarms that can spare a shot also can sometimes manage it.
5. It cannot hurt allies. You can fly through it without concern; the enemy is not so lucky.
6. If the target dies, the buzz droid sits on the field as a hazard thereafter, until destroyed by a foe that didn't have anything better to do.
7. A different enemy ship can shoot it off their ally to get rid of it, but they have to hit an agility-3 target with no tokens (so there's at least a decent chance of a miss), and that wastes a precious shot (so they'll be loathe to shoot the droid to avoid 1 damage instead of shooting one of your ships, when both are in arc, unless they desperately need to avoid that crit).
8. The enemy can fly in a swarm to make it harder to place it, but if you cannot place the token, then it's a Homing Missile-like auto-damage without using your attack.
9. If it successfully attaches to the front, it keeps following them until you can't place the token on their front anymore. If you have to place to token on their back, you'll still get one more round of use out of it. (It's not trivial to keep you from placing it at all, and if they're putting that kind of effort into their positioning just for the buzz droid, then they're remiss in other duties; plus you get the auto-damage.) If their ship can't barrel roll or reverse, and they struggle to position their ship facing an asteroid or another ship etc, you can get several rounds of use out of it. Barrel roll does escape pretty easily though.
10. In my experience, it's a big source of concern for the other player, even if you only get 1 round of use out of it because they shoot or roll off of it. They now have to manage this buzz droid that's attached to their ship and dealing crits each round. If they want to get rid of it, they have to waste at least 1 shot, or position their ships so it has to go to the back guides (or fails to place at all). All of this for spending 4 points and a calculate token to attach what amounts to a condition card with a token.

IMO, for 4 points it's a decent option, and contrasts well with what ESC does. ESC is going to be more popular because people know how to build a fleet around range 2-3 non-locking munitions, and that lends itself to tournament-level swarm alpha-strikes. So I doubt it'll compete with ESC but we'll see.

If you're disposed toward launching mines with Bombardment Drone, then a vulture with Discord Missiles is a fun wingman IMO. Auto-crits really upset some ships, and some fleets are not equipped to shake the buzz droids or spare a shot on them.

I hope that helps!

An

1 hour ago, Wazat said:

There are several neat things about the card:

...and I accidentally found that it's great if you ionise the target too

So... is ESC a much better option though?

26 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

So... is ESC a much better option though?

Let's get to the meat of the issue, since I think I understand what you're asking now.

I've never witnessed tournament players dabbling in Discord. It's all ESC all the time. That's Separatist in general though -- there's not much of any variety in the faction at high-level play. But I also don't see tournament players using proximity mines much, so I suspect it has to do with the mine-laying playstyle being harder to pull off than a calculate-alpha-strike, or less efficient for the points, especially since auto-damage is more useful against agile targets, not beefy lists (which have been in vogue for a while). In the same way that you don't use Dutch as a support when you could fly a generic double-tap Y-Wing swarm instead, you don't take a less vetted option like Discord Missiles to a serious game.

So for those purposes, ESC is better. Mine laying (and related things like discord) doesn't see much top-play right now, while ESC is still used frequently even after the points adjustment.

If you play casual, I'd say try using both to see for yourself what you like. But if you just want to win tournaments, do what tournament winners do and netlist -- other people have the winning fleets solved pretty quickly after any points update. And the tournament records back ESC vulture swarms, not Discord. ****, most Hyena options are total junk by that metric, which is what players in this thread have been talking about when they say X or Y pilot is a trap. I'm fond of bombardment drones, and the tournament players probably are not.

So to put it on the table, I'm a filthy casual. I'm excited to see new blood injected into the faction, and I like what the Hyena brings us, and the cheaper discords. My love of discord comes from non-tournament games, where you have a lot more room to shake up a list and experiment. ESC is objectively better though so you should just go with that.

Just now, Wazat said:

Let's get to the meat of the issue, since I think I understand what you're asking now.

I've never witnessed tournament players dabbling in Discord. It's all ESC all the time. That's Separatist in general though -- there's not much of any variety in the faction at high-level play. But I also don't see tournament players using proximity mines much, so I suspect it has to do with the mine-laying playstyle being harder to pull off than a calculate-alpha-strike, or less efficient for the points, especially since auto-damage is more useful against agile targets, not beefy lists (which have been in vogue for a while). In the same way that you don't use Dutch as a support when you could fly a generic double-tap Y-Wing swarm instead, you don't take a less vetted option like Discord Missiles to a serious game.

So for those purposes, ESC is better. Mine laying (and related things like discord) doesn't see much top-play right now, while ESC is still used frequently even after the points adjustment.

If you play casual, I'd say try using both to see for yourself what you like. But if you just want to win tournaments, do what tournament winners do and netlist -- other people have the winning fleets solved pretty quickly after any points update. And the tournament records back ESC vulture swarms, not Discord. ****, most Hyena options are total junk by that metric, which is what players in this thread have been talking about when they say X or Y pilot is a trap. I'm fond of bombardment drones, and the tournament players probably are not.

So to put it on the table, I'm a filthy casual. I'm excited to see new blood injected into the faction, and I like what the Hyena brings us, and the cheaper discords. My love of discord comes from non-tournament games, where you have a lot more room to shake up a list and experiment. ESC is objectively better though so you should just go with that.

Great stuff. Thanks for the direct assessment. That's what I wanted to know.
I want my lists to not just be quirky, but darn good. I made an amazing 1.0 6 Z list that was literally top tier 1 sleeper. Played 25 test games of it against top meta flown by champion level players

Yeah, it sounds really fun, but imo the costs aren't right. A single use crit isn't 4 points, its probably 2. Then it'd be a viable opportunity cost option to ESC.

Also, idk if other have felt this, but the Hyena is really overcosted. I was showing the Bombardment drone, with the historical 1.0 and 2.0 knowledge that slots really should be worth 0 points, is 32 points, vs the Init3 Torrent at 28 points. Easily 4 points overcosted for no value gained. Bombs are expensive. Trajectory sim is expensive already, these already have their costs built in. Really maybe one point added to the top of the Init3 Torrent at 29 points would be more reasonable. Heck, I'm not really sure Init3 Torrents should be 28 points either. I have the funny feeling they should be only 26 or 27.

Hmmm... I never think in terms of what the naked ship costs unless I'm fielding a naked ship; I think about the end product. I ask "Is bombardment drone with Proximity Mines and Landing Struts worth 39 points to me? What would I field instead for a similar result? (e.g. switch to Scum for a 41-point Constable Zuvio, and then consider how my options change with a different faction). Is the concept itself good or should I switch to a different fleet design?". But again, I'm a filthy casual and that's not how the tournament crowd apparently thinks about their ships, so I don't wanna lead anyone down the path of darkness.

But for casual, I do really hope to see some variety in Separatist in this wave or the next. I'm so tired of facing nothing but trivial variations of ESC vulture swarms. Imagine if the Empire only ever fielded TIE Swarms with Vader or Soontir. Or if Rebels only ever fielded Rebel Bee... oh, haha, caught myself midway on that one. Y'all got me there.

10 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Hmmm... I never think in terms of what the naked ship costs unless I'm fielding a naked ship; I think about the end product. I ask "Is bombardment drone with Proximity Mines and Landing Struts worth 39 points to me? What would I field instead for a similar result? (e.g. switch to Scum for a 41-point Constable Zuvio, and then consider how my options change with a different faction). Is the concept itself good or should I switch to a different fleet design?". But again, I'm a filthy casual and that's not how the tournament crowd apparently thinks about their ships, so I don't wanna lead anyone down the path of darkness.

But for casual, I do really hope to see some variety in Separatist in this wave or the next. I'm so tired of facing nothing but trivial variations of ESC vulture swarms. Imagine if the Empire only ever fielded TIE Swarms with Vader or Soontir. Or if Rebels only ever fielded Rebel Bee... oh, haha, caught myself midway on that one. Y'all got me there.

I agree. I wish there was more diversity in Seps. I think that should start by realigning some of those points. Also, naked ships are important to get right. Especially like Vultures, how much is that body actually worth?

The end product of a naked ship could be to be blockers.