So if someone disagrees with your train of thought then they are automatically wrong?

Your point #2 doesn't account for the fact that FFG could have easily enough pulled the pilot card packs from the conversion kits and just included the titles, upgrade, and the like. Without the extra cardboard, dials, and plastics stands they could have sold them for $20 a pop and sold quite a few of them.

Also, your point about discussing the current issue being pointless isn't necessarily accurate as perhaps such discussion would give FFG some insight as to how to avoid or mitigate this issue in the future. By making such assumptions, doesn't that make your comments somewhat disingenuous?

1 hour ago, Monkeyshine77 said:

So if someone disagrees with your train of thought then they are automatically wrong?  

Quite the opposite, I even outlined what I'd need to see to change my opinion. But I do think someone complaining without being willing to put in the work is lazy at best and acting in bad faith at worst. (E: There is no fruitful discussion to be had with either of them)

1 hour ago, Monkeyshine77 said:

Your point #2 doesn't account for the fact that FFG could have easily enough pulled the pilot card packs from the conversion kits and just included the titles, upgrade, and the like. Without the extra cardboard, dials, and plastics stands they could have sold them for $20 a pop and sold quite a few of them.

That's just your speculation and/or wishful thinking.

1 hour ago, Monkeyshine77 said:

Also, your point about discussing the current issue being pointless isn't necessarily accurate as perhaps such discussion would give FFG some insight as to how to avoid or mitigate this issue in the future. By making such assumptions, doesn't that make your comments somewhat disingenuous?

No.

Right, because simple one word responses are devoid of speculation. Your responses are mostly compromised of speculation yet you continue to criticize others for lazy speculation.

Before 2.0 came out many criticized others for discussing concerns stating that doing so had no constructive value. Yet many of the issues discussed concerning were addressed in 2.0.

Hypocrisy much?

Edit: Now that you've read it: that's it. If you do not demonstrate an ounce of good faith behavior then I see no reason to talk to you.
I try one last time.

• FFG had so far no interest to release upgrades in product that can not use them, as evidenced by everything that was released so far . There are some few cases like afterburners in the Fangfighter expansion where they threw in the upgrade anyway, and then put it on the quickbuilds - which I count as "can use them" fyi. And you know what happened? In this forum that you seem to think is of such valuable feedback for FFG? Complaints and ridicule. That gives me point nr1: As far as I can tell, FFG only releases upgrades in expansions when they are a) directly usable at the time of release or b) are usable in a quickbuild.
  • You can refute this point by pointing out a card that does not fit in, and then telling me how often it was true. The ratio tells us to what degree this is correct. Please note that balance based slot adjustments later on are explicitly excluded because FFG - like me - doesn't see into the future.
  • I'm sure @Hiemfire knows this already. What are upgrades in expansions that are neither usable nor on a quickbuild?
• The crux - "FFG broke their promise". The promise, paraphrased: "You will not have to buy outside of your faction to get an upgrade". The other one paraphrased: "You will not have to buy product that you already own to get new content". The second promise is important context because they set themselves up to break one or the other, as they now can't release new upgrades in re-released ships while you buy within your faction in a short time frame (arbitrarily a year, as that is mentioned several times). So tell me, which one is more important, which one leads to more threads and more complaints? The obvious answer is "the one that gets broken", because all those who do not mind and prioritize the other keep quiet.
  • The first promise does not say when you will get it. How long is too long? 1.0 had much slower cycles than 2.0. This is subjective and as such there is no right answer from us. The right answer for FFG is the most common answer.
    • And how long is it reasonable to keep the promise, anyway? If they realized that they won't be able to reasonably do so, what then?
    • They messed this up in the conversion kits. What chances did they give themselves to correct this?
  • Here we go into specifics, and this is where I asked those complaining to do some work. If you have a problem with a card, go through the expansions and point out where it could have been added to the product. For obvious reasons they can't add the Moldy Crow title to the Mining Guild TIE - that would lead to complaints that every scum player now has to buy that TIE and it would be criticized as cash grab.
  • Some examples were already brought forward and refuted, e.g. BT, 000, or Maul. Was there an earlier option that FFG missed?
    • BT and 000 for empire could not have been released in the TIE advanced or fighter (wave1), striker (wave 3), and will be in wave 4 with the first crew carrier.
    • Maul for rebels could not have been released in the X- or Ywing (wave 1). He could have been included in the Millenium Falcon but was pushed back by 1 wave. A lot of players have several Millenium Falcons. Based on other experiences, I speculate (!!!) that players would also decry this as cash grab because there are so many Falcons around. Definitely more than VCX-100s, for example.
  • That shows that they took at least some chances they had so far. But then they announced card packs.
• FFG decided to release card packs. Something the community asked for for years and years. I can not say why they are able or willing to release them now and not before. We have no clue what will be in there. Some hope that it makes cards available that are already around. Others hope that they will introduce more pilots. We do not know. But whatever it will be, the pipeline is already set in motion because these things take time. Which means this thread will definitely not affect the first or second batch of card packs. And that is why I said we should wait until after the second one, where FFG can change based on initial reception (= sales, feedback) if necessary. Not really feedback from such threads by the way.
  • I don't think that there is anything to refute here.

And the petty part: I have 6 posts in this thread, this is now nr7.

1. The first speculates that calling FFG liars leads to a worse vibe in the forum. I think this speculation is based on a lot of experience and warranted.
2. The second asks two questions as to why I think it is unfair to call FFG liars in this issue. I still think there is no issue with the first, and I clearly state already what to do for the second. No speculation.
3. "They did the best they realistically could" is speculation, but I think it is a reasonable assumption that a company makes the best product from their point of view that they could at the time. That is not the same as the best product from the customer's point of view. Compare this speculation of mine with your "FFG could have easily enough pulled the pilot card packs from the conversion kits and just included the titles, upgrade, and the like. Without the extra cardboard, dials, and plastics stands they could have sold them for $20 a pop and sold quite a few of them. " You are arrogant enough to even set a prize point. Arrogant because you do not show your work, you just pull this number out of thin air. Do you see the difference between these 2 speculations?
4. Post 4 says we will get card packs and that we simply don't know what they will be like. That makes our discussion completely pointless. No speculation here. Maybe the implied speculation that FFG does not change their business plans because someone makes a forum thread.
5. The "speculation" here is that he stopped at disingenuous. Which is obviously not to be taken literally. I don't expect him to have stopped reading everything else. But he mentally stopped there and took it as his hook without looking at the rest. So.... no speculation here.
6. The last one speculates that FFG does not take "insight as to how to avoid or mitigate this issue in the future" from forum threads like this one. Same one as nr4.

That means overall I speculate that FFG is interested to optimize their product, and that they don't rely on such threads to do so. You speculate that they could have sold card packs from conversion kits at "$20 a pop" and make enough of a profit out of that to justify the decision. Again, do you think that there is a difference between the two types?

While I agree card availability could be better, to which extent is this a real problem? How many of you have actually had a game planned where neither printing, proxying or borrowing was possible? Discounting delayed waves, obviously.

There are parts of your argument where you present supposition as facts, especially where it comes to current discussion impacting future practices.

I thought I had been pretty clear as to that being the main point of disagreement.

11 minutes ago, Monkeyshine77 said:

There are parts of your argument where you present supposition as facts, especially where it comes to current discussion impacting future practices.

I thought I had been pretty clear as to that being the main point of disagreement.

Just a general tip, but quoting people or at least mentioning their names is a good way to let people know whom you're addressing on a message board, where multiple parties are talking.

It also allows you to reference specific parts of someone's post, so you don't have to make broad generalizations and have others just guess what you mean.

1 hour ago, Monkeyshine77 said:

There are parts of your argument where you present supposition as facts, especially where it comes to current discussion impacting future practices.

I thought I had been pretty clear as to that being the main point of disagreement.

Could you highlight what you found to be supposition?

On 7/23/2019 at 1:11 PM, GreenDragoon said:

Yes. If you would have read the other posts you would have seen that I asked two questions, and if you object to the second you are kindly invited to "go through the expansions that we did get, and tell me where missing upgrades should have been released. "

The Conversion kits. Duh.

If you had kept going to page 2, you'd have seen my other point that o"f all times in the life of Xwing we are now in the unique slot where it is extremely pointless to discuss possible solutions. Yes, even more pointless than ever before and it will be until the second (!) set of card packs is released. "

I wasnt talking about solutions. It's not my job as a customer to figure out how FFG can keep the promise they chose to make over a year ago, that's on them. My job as a customer is know that it is a FACT that FFG made a promise and a year later continues to break that promise, and that any future promises or statements they make should be treated with extreme skepticism. And imo it is pretty despicable for people, out of some bizarre brand loyalty or something, to try to gaslight other players into believing that somehow FFG did not break the simple straightforward promise that they made.

But you stopped at disingenuous. Ironic. Hmm.

38 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

But the Conversion Kits came out about a year ago. Perhaps Composure and Agile Gunner could have been put in (though perhaps not), but we are way past the window for something like the new autoblasters or the Diamond Boron Missile to have been included. Your solution doesn't address an ongoing issue.

And we are dealing with different interpretations of what constitutes FFG breaking their promise. I don't think they've done the best they could with the promise, but I still think they are keeping it. If that's not how you see it, that's your right. Just don't expect others to bow to your interpretation. And just as you get frustrated when your view is opposed, others go through the same thing. It's not some sort of "bizarre brand loyalty", it's another opinion. If you want respect for yours, maybe give it to others?

@ClassicalMoser @ScummyRebel @Tvboy @Monkeyshine77

Pilots, Upgrades, and Obstacles. I hope you don't think it was due to this thread...

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

@ClassicalMoser @ScummyRebel @Tvboy @Monkeyshine77

Pilots, Upgrades, and Obstacles. I hope you don't think it was due to this thread...

No, I don’t think it was due to this thread. The only time the forums actually influenced them was gunboat and how many pages did that get to first

4 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

No, I don’t think it was due to this thread. The only time the forums actually influenced them was gunboat and how many pages did that get to first

It could be argued that way back when scum first released and they said you couldn’t use cross faction dials in a tournament that the decision was influenced by the forums, the dust from that sandstorm was spectacular before they reversed the decision. The damage deck change to the force awakens core set only raised a pretty big stink until they backpedaled on that decision as well.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

@ClassicalMoser @ScummyRebel @Tvboy @Monkeyshine77

Pilots, Upgrades, and Obstacles. I hope you don't think it was due to this thread...

I never doubted they would do this. I know it was always in the plan. I'm extremely excited about them!

Q1 2020 makes me sad though 😢

Not regretting buying Autoblasters aftermarket.

7 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

No, I don’t think it was due to this thread. The only time the forums actually influenced them was gunboat and how many pages did that get to first

Not to remove any merit from the Gunboat thread (where I posted a lot too), but I think Davy said that they were planning the gunboat since almost when they joined the design team, but the game was lacking many many pieces to fully realize that ship, and they couldn't introduce them all at the same time for proper balancing.
In particular Tractor, Jamming, SLAM, and reloading.
I think I remember Brooks specifically said that it was the addition of reloading and jamming what finally allowed them to produce the ship, since they were the last pieces needed in the puzzle.