Absolutely It’s a name a friend gave me. Why - you expect a name on the internet to mean something?

Im sorry, I just don’t see your point. If that’s how you feel and what helps you cope, so be it. I won’t bug you any longer.

41 minutes ago, Tubb said:

So people can come here and talk about what they like of the new product, how it will open up new game options and how the new metadupersuper vader will change their world, but If I think that the product is not what I expected them to release because the game is going to a course i don't like with too much named characters and no inventive news, can't I explain?

I think it’s fair to say your peace. I haven’t gone over every post but the ones I read felt respectable. We don’t fully agree, of course, but that’s ok.

I am somewhere in between you and the tournament guys. I like casual gaming but don’t require a full story or the RPG-esque elements necessarily. To me, it’s a hypothetical Star Wars military skirmish. No different than when we were kids playing toy soldiers - it doesn’t necessarily fit into “historical canon” but it’s still a story of its own.

So, unique known characters don’t bother me too much, but I do like the generic trooper units a bunch.

In the case of new Luke or new Vader, I like it because it represents a different era of said hypothetical scenario. I understand the frustration though, as my initial reaction was “hey why didn’t we get other stuff first”.

As for “is this the product you want?” Well, that’s up to you to decide. I like what we’ve gotten for the most part.

Honestly, I think that FFG has given us (consumers) a star wars game for nearly everyone. X-wing for fighter pilots (nearly perfected with the fan made aturi cluster, in my opinion), armada for the admiral wannabes. The RPG’s for those that fully want to tell their own stories, Imperial assault to have a more character driven skirmish style game and Legion to have full out tactical head to head with your army that suits your play, all in a simple and concise rule set that approximates combat.

4 hours ago, Tubb said:

Of course, and in 18 months I have waited for what I expected it to be, thinking that in the NEXT month it will be an infantry that i'd like,,, or that next wave they are going to do multiparts (they said that they were going to...) but after 18 months things have taken a very different course and i am beginning to get tired of meta and more meta and empty news and having story and armies in third place. And cards are NOT mandatory, it is only a matter of not wanting to invest in a System that would be SLIGHTLY diferent from what they are used to.

They make books... why was so strange to think they could make RULEBOOKS??

Army lists?

Lore books for diferent planets and environaments?

Different armies?

With their way of doing things, they are going to have lack of sources in less than a year... they don't invent nothing, they don't do anything other than repeating the same units and heroes again and again...

waiting for the XXX Disney series or the XXX episode movie to be able to have new units is the way to go????????

I mean, they do make a rule book; it’s a free pdf that gets routine updates.

And, for the sake of the player base having a shared understanding of what units are and what they do, the cards are superior to rulebooks that not every player might even have.

Cards do exactly the job of a GW rulebook with the added benefit of not requiring you to purchase an entire rulebook to verify what your opponent’s units allegedly do.

Yeah, college wasn't that long ago for me, I'm glad that ideally I never have to haul textbooks around anymore.

10 hours ago, Tubb said:

Every videogame, board game, strategy game, comic, rpg, book, novel, and series have aported something new to star wars lore, that remained there... what has FFG contributed?????

If nothing else, the Raider Corvette. This was completlely invented for X-Wing and is now Canon.

10 hours ago, Derrault said:

I mean, they do make a rule book; it’s a free pdf that gets routine updates.

And, for the sake of the player base having a shared understanding of what units are and what they do, the cards are superior to rulebooks that not every player might even have.

Cards do exactly the job of a GW rulebook with the added benefit of not requiring you to purchase an entire rulebook to verify what your opponent’s units allegedly do.

A lot of wargaming is used to rule books that are like 10 pages of rules and a couple hundred pages of art and background material. It's a dying trend, largely because of the death of physical media, shipping weight, translation costs and just the fact that these things get outdated quickly and linger on store shelves. I do miss them, but in the case of Star Wars there's little FFG could do with the concept. They don't really own the lore here so while they could tell some stories here and there, the unit histories are something that Lucas has released dedicated sourcebooks for for years. I suppose I haven't really dug into their RPG to see how its handled there, but ultimately if I want info on these things, there are plenty of ways to find it.

22 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Honestly, I think that FFG has given us (consumers) a star wars game for nearly everyone. X-wing for fighter pilots (nearly perfected with the fan made aturi cluster, in my opinion), armada for the admiral wannabes. The RPG’s for those that fully want to tell their own stories, Imperial assault to have a more character driven skirmish style game and Legion to have full out tactical head to head with your army that suits your play, all in a simple and concise rule set that approximates combat.

I agree with your description of the games made, but in my opinion Imperial Assault and Legion are too close. Playing with ten minis and playing with twenty is not a great difference. Legion is still a squirmish game with too much operatives and heroes, in my opinion of course.

13 hours ago, Vode said:

If nothing else, the Raider Corvette. This was completlely invented for X-Wing and is now Canon.

Got to concede this one, didn't remember. That is exactly what i would like to have in legion, more infantry units, invented if it is necessary. They can do it when it is needed (like your example in X-wing), so why still insist in heroes as if there were no other options for a Star Wars ARMY?

9 minutes ago, Tubb said:

Got to concede this one, didn't remember. That is exactly what i would like to have in legion, more infantry units, invented if it is necessary. They can do it when it is needed (like your example in X-wing), so why still insist in heroes as if there were no other options for a Star Wars ARMY?

I suppose one way to look at it is heroes sell. The Raider was a one off because they had already utilized existing sources for the other models but hit a snag when the empire literally had nothing like it.

I too wouldn’t mind new / more trooper units and variety, but those are going to sell less than a known quantity unless it’s bonkers good on paper, but nobody wants creep.

I think it’s likely we end up with more customizable options in the reprints of old corps units on sprues - new poses and more aliens and all the options. Same unit on paper (same card), different aesthetics. But that may take more time to get to.

7 minutes ago, Tubb said:

I agree with your description of the games made, but in my opinion Imperial Assault and Legion are too close. Playing with ten minis and playing with twenty is not a great difference. Legion is still a squirmish game with too much operatives and heroes, in my opinion of course.

I've never played the skirmish mode for Imperial Assault, only the campaign mode and it had a VERY different feel than Legion in my opinion.

As to Legion and story.. I've been making scenery for the world I made up for when I ran the RPG, so as not to inundate the gaming scene with more Tatooine or Hoth terrain.

I actually don't intend to run shore troopers with snow troopers (though snowy planets can have shores). You can certainly invent a narrative for an army you create.

20 hours ago, Derrault said:

I mean, they do make a rule book; it’s a free pdf that gets routine updates.

And, for the sake of the player base having a shared understanding of what units are and what they do, the cards are superior to rulebooks that not every player might even have.

Cards do exactly the job of a GW rulebook with the added benefit of not requiring you to purchase an entire rulebook to verify what your opponent’s units allegedly do.

I have to disagree, the stats in a page with their statistics included and even the extras and weapons included, in most miniature wargames, are one stat line long.

You could have the whole info of every unit of your army in half a page. It is this way in 40k, in Bolt Action, in Infinity, in Batman Miniatures Game, in LotR Strategic Battles and in Conquest.

The famous army builders give you a wonderful display of everything you need, so the cards usually get simply piled in a corner...

When you get to a tournament, you can see the list of your oponent and there's no need to own his rulebook, most of the rules are universal, and the ones that don't, are explained in one line, so no, there's no need for cards, they made cards simply because they had companies that made cards for them and that was the easy way of doing things. I would have prefered of course a Big Rule Book with plenty of stories, photographs, inspiration, hobby, painting... but of course that demands a real miniatures game, not a squirmish board game made with 3d miniatures.

7 hours ago, Tubb said:

Got to concede this one, didn't remember. That is exactly what i would like to have in legion, more infantry units, invented if it is necessary. They can do it when it is needed (like your example in X-wing), so why still insist in heroes as if there were no other options for a Star Wars ARMY?

They aren't really allowed to anymore

Tubb

I disagree to your disagreement.

I understand your view, and strongly believe everyone should play the game / hobby how they want.

For me if I want to immerse myself in Star Wars lore I break out a box set and watch Star Wars.

Anything FFG did would be a type of fan fiction at best, which I personally don’t like (my views are similar to George Martin if you ever see him talk on that subject).

Nit it sure what all this has to do with new Luke/Vader but Ho-hum

Heroes more or less define Star Wars. It's always been a series about insignificant things changing the galaxy. Nothing is every really done by armies or fleets; its all about the importance of a single hero or a small one man fighter turning the tide and saving the day.

15 hours ago, Tubb said:

You could have the whole info of every unit of your army in half a page. It is this way in 40k, in Bolt Action, in Infinity, in Batman Miniatures Game, in LotR Strategic Battles and in Conquest.

The famous army builders give you a wonderful display of everything you need, so the cards usually get simply piled in a corner...

Most of these games relied heavily on rules memorization or extensive lookup to play. Often times you'd spend more time flipping through the rulebook to find out what a keyword did and it was generally really challenging to get a big picture view of how a model functioned.

It's notable that 40k, Batman, and Infinity have all gotten vastly more popular by moving away from this. 40k lists most of its stats in the profile these days (but has a ridiculous weapon table lookup that pushes most people to Battlescribe), Infinity is entirely digital and does the keyword lookup via the app, and notably Batman has started printing all their rules on the back of cards just like Legion (also, Batman's old cards were enormous, so I'm not sure why its in the list).

7 hours ago, LunarSol said:

(also, Batman's old cards were enormous, so I'm not sure why its in the list).

Because the cards were only for units (characters), and part of the gameplay, it is the place where you play the tokens and assign energy, it is a fundamental part of game mechanic, not only a part of army Building. And they also got a BigRuleBook with tons of background and lore

23 hours ago, Tubb said:

I have to disagree, the stats in a page with their statistics included and even the extras and weapons included, in most miniature wargames, are one stat line long.

You could have the whole info of every unit of your army in half a page. It is this way in 40k, in Bolt Action, in Infinity, in Batman Miniatures Game, in LotR Strategic Battles and in Conquest.

The famous army builders give you a wonderful display of everything you need, so the cards usually get simply piled in a corner...

When you get to a tournament, you can see the list of your oponent and there's no need to own his rulebook, most of the rules are universal, and the ones that don't, are explained in one line, so no, there's no need for cards, they made cards simply because they had companies that made cards for them and that was the easy way of doing things. I would have prefered of course a Big Rule Book with plenty of stories, photographs, inspiration, hobby, painting... but of course that demands a real miniatures game, not a squirmish board game made with 3d miniatures.

Im not seeing why the cards aren’t more easily parsed.

34 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Im not seeing why the cards aren’t more easily parsed.

It is a problem of space, too much wasted space on table for every unit, and sometimes even the same unit with the same stats, but you got to have two copies of the same cards and same card addons because you displayed two of them. Every card has art, that is completely unneeded when you are playing, and thus the text has to be smaller.

And all cards together are way bigger than just one printed page.

And when you got a big rule book with all units in there you can plan your army better than when you are waiting for the next expansions to see fit your army...

you simply don't have ALL the cards from the game at the beginning, you have to wait YEARS to know how is it going...

Example: in every other wargame, you buy the BRB, then you buy the còdex or army book or whatever needed (IF needed, in bolt action is everything included in the BRB) for the army (or armies) you want. You READ the lore, the background and see EVERY possible unit, and so you plan...

I'll do a space marine biker detachment, with lots of bikes and a medic as commander

OR

I'll do a jetpack great speedy army with tons of jumpmarines and some artillery to empty zones for the marines to enter

OR

I'll do a Great Britain army, with a lot of mortars and some commandos

OR

I'll do a parachute group (german fallschirmjäger), that will get cover from a panzer squad

And so you buy the needed contents for your decided and beloved army, and do an army that NO OTHER in the world has...

Try to do this when you buy a legion Starter set and two years after you still got only TWO infantry options... an scout army? how? A Hoth blizzard force? how?

card System without big rule book that gives you stats for armies and units is worse, because the cards appear through a time lapse of more than a year, and so every Player plays exactly the same. That's why you really want your new commanders so badly, because they are the only way to introduce variety... but it shouldn't have to be the way to go.

On 7/24/2019 at 10:06 AM, LunarSol said:

A lot of wargaming is used to rule books that are like 10 pages of rules and a couple hundred pages of art and background material. It's a dying trend, largely because of the death of physical media, shipping weight, translation costs and just the fact that these things get outdated quickly and linger on store shelves. I do miss them, but in the case of Star Wars there's little FFG could do with the concept. They don't really own the lore here so while they could tell some stories here and there, the unit histories are something that Lucas has released dedicated sourcebooks for for years. I suppose I haven't really dug into their RPG to see how its handled there, but ultimately if I want info on these things, there are plenty of ways to find it.

Yeah, the same thing RPGs continue to do; that doesn’t make it a good idea in terms of quality gaming, however.

@Tubb it’s 8-16 3x5 cards; every table can fit that easily. Who cares about planning if you can’t run the unit?

22 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Heroes more or less define Star Wars. It's always been a series about insignificant things changing the galaxy. Nothing is every really done by armies or fleets; its all about the importance of a single hero or a small one man fighter turning the tide and saving the day.

I have to disagree with you here. While heroes with plot armor are important, armies and fleets of nobodies do have important contributions to the story on numerous occasions. Ep. II has the prime example of this, as all of heroes are about to die, and then a literal army shows up to save them. Ep. I and VI have variations on this as well, as Padme is saved by her guards showing up unexpectedly, and an army of Ewoks save the day in RotJ.

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

I have to disagree with you here. While heroes with plot armor are important, armies and fleets of nobodies do have important contributions to the story on numerous occasions. Ep. II has the prime example of this, as all of heroes are about to die, and then a literal army shows up to save them. Ep. I and VI have variations on this as well, as Padme is saved by her guards showing up unexpectedly, and an army of Ewoks save the day in RotJ.

Those moments are still about armies arriving to save the heroes. They're not the focus of the story so much as an opportunity to swing the moment for or against the heroes, who the story then focuses on to react to the new situation. Part of that is just because of the medium, but its still pretty rare for anything in Star Wars to be resolved by anything other than plucky loners saving the day.

15 hours ago, Tubb said:

It is a problem of space, too much wasted space on table for every unit, and sometimes even the same unit with the same stats, but you got to have two copies of the same cards and same card addons because you displayed two of them. Every card has art, that is completely unneeded when you are playing, and thus the text has to be smaller.

And all cards together are way bigger than just one printed page.

You really don't. I cannot remember the last time I brought more than one Stormtrooper card to the table and when I do, its largely to count points and then I put them in a stack.

Also, fwiw, the spammiest lists take 11 orders, which means you're running 11 cards, which is exactly 2 more than a single 3x3 card sheet that's the size of an 8x11 sheet of paper. Even with upgrades you're talking about a sheet and a half. I have never had a 40k army that fits on a sheet and a half.

17 hours ago, Tubb said:

Because the cards were only for units (characters), and part of the gameplay, it is the place where you play the tokens and assign energy, it is a fundamental part of game mechanic, not only a part of army Building. And they also got a BigRuleBook with tons of background and lore

I still don't see how its different for Legion. The cards are for units in Legion as well. I know the cards role in Batman, but they still take up almost more table space than the 3x3 map. The new ones are better, but roughly end up the same size as Legion once you've made space for counters and the like. Batman's one of my favorite games currently; its also one whose card system is most directly comparable to Legion's so I don't understand why you see a difference.

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

I still don't see how its different for Legion. The cards are for units in Legion as well. I know the cards role in Batman, but they still take up almost more table space than the 3x3 map. The new ones are better, but roughly end up the same size as Legion once you've made space for counters and the like. Batman's one of my favorite games currently; its also one whose card system is most directly comparable to Legion's so I don't understand why you see a difference.

Which tokens do you use in legion to place orders in your minis cards?

Also, you are taking about a skirmish with five-six units... This is the way to go with Legion? And as I said, the problem is the addons, the rest of the cards that are needed to know wich unit has what.

In batman you got 5-6 cards, un Legion 6-7 unit cards and at least a couple of extras for each one... That's easily 20 cards to care for... I'd strongly prefer a couple of printed sheets that you can take with one hand and place wherever.

Batman has upgrades for the models same as Legion. They've even started printing them on similar little cards. How many little cards you need mostly comes down to how unique you customize each unit. Most things you take in multiples you take with the same basic loadout anyway and even the differences are often model based. I can totally tell which unit has the med bot without having to use multiple stormtrooper cards.

I'd argue that Batman is a skirmish with 5-9 units, and while a "unit" in Legion is made up of more models, you're only running a couple more "card entities" in Legion. My point is just that in no way is Batman "a couple printed sheets". Its VERY similar to Legion. Easily one of the most similar comparisons of all the game systems I play.