Movement and Range Bands

By WalterC, in Rules Questions

I need some help understanding this.

When the rules say, "a character may move 1 range band," what exactly does that mean? Is that movement relative to the character's target? If character A starts at range band 4 relative to character B, and moves one range band, does character A move from band 4 to band 3?

I was only letting my players move 1 hex for that one range band, and it felt like I was doing it wrong.

On 7/18/2019 at 4:18 PM, WalterC said:

I need some help understanding this.

When the rules say, "a character may move 1 range band," what exactly does that mean? Is that movement relative to the character's target? If character A starts at range band 4 relative to character B, and moves one range band, does character A move from band 4 to band 3?

I was only letting my players move 1 hex for that one range band, and it felt like I was doing it wrong.

If you want to use Hexes, use the optional rule for grid based movement.

The regular range band movement is very loose and not meant for tactical gameplay (despite the other rules and techniques trying to be highly tactical with precise distances, which is a shame and bad design).

So, my take on it is; use grid rules to learn the game, then move to the range band system when comfortable, you can start to use range bands for more narrative encounter where distances matters too.

And yes, do you move in relation to your target, or to your point of origin? (It does create some inconsistencies and needs to be decided on the fly) I usually consider that you move in relation to your target unless you have a threat nearby, in that case I say you move in relation to your point of origin.

Now, are the range band rules total garbage? Almost. So are a lot of the rules in the game... This game is what you want it to be, the rules are loose, all over the place, have some loopholes and they allow you to decide or interpret how your group feels like they should play out. The game itself doesn't assume its narrative or tactical self, it kind of fails at both, or act as a hybrid with a very good GM.

Sorry if the answer is all over the place, but that is what you get into when you play that game. It is only a canvas for houserules and interpretations. Remember the only one important thing: the #1 rule is the rule of fun. At least this way you won't be disapointed or frustrated that they butched the ruleset of such an epic setting.

Edited by Avatar111
1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

And yes, do you move in relation to your target, or to your point of origin? (It does create some inconsistencies and needs to be decided on the fly) I usually consider that you move in relation to your target unless you have a threat nearby, in that case I say you move in relation to your point of origin.

That's correct; if you move 1 range band, it's always relative to the thing you were measuring range to.

So charging from bow range to spear range of a target, or from spear's length to up-close knife-stabby distance. Both of which take - per range bands - the same time and effort (2 range bands moved each).

Rather than continuously tracking "range 5-4-3-2-1-0" you kind of have to look at the start of a move saying "how far away am I" and judging move actions based on that, because characters moving about relative to each other can interact weirdly with range bands.

For the sake of example:

two allied samurai stood next to each other see their enemy. They begin at range 1 of each other.

One has a Yumi and simply starts taking pot-shots at the edge of direct shot range (range 4) whilst the other makes a maneuver action to close with the enemy, moving two range bands - so theoretically now at range 2.

The thing is, range 2 of the target is about 3-4 yards away - spear distance, so still out of range of the sword, but from the perspective of the archer essentially right next to the target. Which means that if you needed to turn around and go back (because a previously unnoticed shinobi started stabbing them), you'd discover you'd gone from range 1 to range 4, despite (from your perspective) only moving 2 range bands, and the same move action the other way wouldn't put you back at your starting point.

Range Bands of Unequal Size are something common to L5R, FFG's Star Wars RPG (and hence I assume Genesys), Traveller, and a few others, too. They're rarely a good idea if you start thinking about position in too much detail - especially if you have a three-body problem where (gasp!) two of your PCs go in opposite directions to flank or tactics or something and subsequently need to know how far they are from each other .

It's only ever a rough narrative thing at best. As @Avatar111 says; if you're actually using a map, stick with the grid rules. It's just easier .

37 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That's correct; if you move 1 range band, it's always relative to the thing you were measuring range to.

So charging from bow range to spear range of a target, or from spear's length to up-close knife-stabby distance. Both of which take - per range bands - the same time and effort (2 range bands moved each).

Rather than continuously tracking "range 5-4-3-2-1-0" you kind of have to look at the start of a move saying "how far away am I" and judging move actions based on that, because characters moving about relative to each other can interact weirdly with range bands.

For the sake of example:

two allied samurai stood next to each other see their enemy. They begin at range 1 of each other.

One has a Yumi and simply starts taking pot-shots at the edge of direct shot range (range 4) whilst the other makes a maneuver action to close with the enemy, moving two range bands - so theoretically now at range 2.

The thing is, range 2 of the target is about 3-4 yards away - spear distance, so still out of range of the sword, but from the perspective of the archer essentially right next to the target. Which means that if you needed to turn around and go back (because a previously unnoticed shinobi started stabbing them), you'd discover you'd gone from range 1 to range 4, despite (from your perspective) only moving 2 range bands, and the same move action the other way wouldn't put you back at your starting point.

Range Bands of Unequal Size are something common to L5R, FFG's Star Wars RPG (and hence I assume Genesys), Traveller, and a few others, too. They're rarely a good idea if you start thinking about position in too much detail - especially if you have a three-body problem where (gasp!) two of your PCs go in opposite directions to flank or tactics or something and subsequently need to know how far they are from each other .

It's only ever a rough narrative thing at best. As @Avatar111 says; if you're actually using a map, stick with the grid rules. It's just easier .

Grid is easier, true that.

To me, the "best" system would be a simplified grid based system that can translate into narrative range bands easily. (the L5R system CANNOT do that, as both their range systems (bands and grid) gives different result, which is again, bad design that plagues this game. They also went a bit too tactical with their range 0-1-2 instead of "engaged" and that is also garbage design. If they want to be range band, assume it! But this game doesn't assume anything... Its biggest issue)

The other question I think the original poster meant was, for example:

character A is 4 range bands away from character B (kind of far, much more than twice a spear range).
Now, character C is standing beside from character A (range 0).
If character C decides to move toward character B, deciding to move 2 range band, the system screw up.... because character C is now effectively at spear range from WHICH character ? A or B ? If you answer both, you are breaking the rules of the distances, which is, in a narrative thing; no big deal. But when a game try to put techniques with precise distances, kiting with water stance, and shenanigans like that... You end up with weird results.

Edited by Avatar111

This also feels weird with using opportunity to increase range bands. Okay, on an invocation, using an opportunity to increase the range from 1 to 2 is cool. but using one opportunity to increase from 4 to 5? that feels broken. (looking at the Hands of the Tides invocation here. one opportunity means i've gone from teleporting someone MAYBE 100 yards to teleporting them a lot farther. )

3 hours ago, Scrivener Spills said:

This also feels weird with using opportunity to increase range bands. Okay, on an invocation, using an opportunity to increase the range from 1 to 2 is cool. but using one opportunity to increase from 4 to 5? that feels broken. (looking at the Hands of the Tides invocation here. one opportunity means i've gone from teleporting someone MAYBE 100 yards to teleporting them a lot farther. )

I don't think the game is supposed to be balanced in a strict boardgamey way. Doesn't excuse some of its unfun part, but it is still an excuse.

Edited by Avatar111

Ok, thanks peeps!

I’ve never been able to get any range band style system to work. And the grid system in L5R5 doesn’t yield the results I want. For better or worse, my PCs all happen to use weapons with the same range so... it’s sort of not been an issue in this game. But now that I have an NPC who plans to use a spear to keep a PC away while poking him, there’ll be some range band shenanigans.

Indeed. Polearms - especially with one or more of water stance, the snaring quality and iron forest style make for a surprisingly challenging opponent because you just can't get into position to swing at the bugger.

What about in duels/clashes? Are you always in sword range even if they use Iron Forest? So an archer can duel an unarmed monk and both are always in range? So you can't use water stance to move an extra range band in a duel/clash because range bands no longer exist?

On 7/25/2019 at 6:24 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. Polearms - especially with one or more of water stance, the snaring quality and iron forest style make for a surprisingly challenging opponent because you just can't get into position to swing at the bugger.

What about in duels/clashes? Are you always in sword range even if they use Iron Forest? So an archer can duel an unarmed monk and both are always in range? So you can't use water stance to move an extra range band in a duel/clash because range bands no longer exist?

Edited by Seraph1m
5 hours ago, Seraph1m said:

What about in duels/clashes? Are you always in sword range even if they use Iron Forest? So an archer can duel an unarmed monk and both are always in range?

In a duel, yes. You always count as in range of any technique - so Iron forest means you're unable to advance but you're 'in range' anyway. It's not that you're simultaneously at range 5 and range 0, but that in a duel you are narratively at whatever range you need to be.

Given that a duel begins by moving to range 2 of one another, if you are using a bow in the subsequent fight you're probably using it at point blank range as your opponent rushes you with fist/blade whatever (think John Snow & Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones)

So rules-wise, using Iron Forest Style won't prevent an opponent moving into range of you because they're already in range of any technique and weapon they wish to use. Note that it's still not a useless technique, because activating it makes the terrain within reach of your spear (which therefore includes your opponent's location) count as dangerous - meaning they suffer physical damage equal to the number of kept 1518491343_StrifeSmall.png.6434e11e967f0 whenever they make a check.

5 hours ago, Seraph1m said:

So you can't use water stance to move an extra range band in a duel/clash because range bands no longer exist?

Range bands exist where the rules call for them, but whenever a technique or rules effect asks "are you at range 0-1" (or whatever) the answer is automatically "yes".

You're correct you can't use water stance to move an extra range band - it's because there is no such thing as the Manoeuvre action. The actions available in a duel (aside from specific Kata or Shuji) are Calming Breath, Centre, Predict, Strike, Prepare Item, and Unique Action. Manoeuvre is not available in a duel, just the same as Strike is not available in an intrigue.

Nothing stops you triggering an 1211841275_OpportunitySmall.png.acf41343 effect which says "...and then move 1 range band" but it's pretty pointless because your opponent still counts you as being at whatever range they want after you do so (though if the effect has a second string to it, such as letting you change stance or something, it might still be worth it).

Edited by Magnus Grendel