In ANH, it is implied that the Senate held some significant sway over political affairs and was the center of power in the Empire. Vader's officer expressed serious concern about arresting Leia and the ramifications of that, while Tagge was worried about the dissolution affecting the running of the State. Not to mention Leia tried to hide behind "diplomatic immunity" implying that senators were pretty much untouchable.

In contrast, non film sources like the Legends EU and some other Nu-canon sources are a little more schizophrenic and can't make up their minds. Some sources say that the Senate is powerless and holds no real authority or influence, and only exists to give legitimacy to the Throne and the Imperial Constitution. Yet at the same time other sources (especially older RPG sourcebooks) say that the Senate still held enough power to challenge the Emperor politically, and numerous senators openly opposed the Emperor in the halls of power. Mothma comes to mind, and so does the fact that Alderaan was pretty openly hostile to the Empire's New Order.

Excuse me, but having a legislature with the power to challenge the executive enough to cause problems in running the State does not sound at all how an authoritarian dictatorship is supposed to be run. It sounds more like a dysfunctional democratic republic where freely appointed or elected representatives challenge the executive's policies and cause frequent headaches for his cronies.

So, what exactly did the Imperial Senate do? Why was there even an armed rebellion led by senators when it is clear that there was pretty much still open representation, and senators still held influence as was the case in the late Republic? And if the Empire was supposed to be a martial authoritarian state, why weren't dissident senators removed or eliminated by the ISB ("accidents" of course) and their home world's governments replaced and placed under occupation? Historically, empires in the real world have placed unruly colonies under direct rule if they got out of hand.

The Empire sowed its own destruction by not being the very thing it was supposed to be in the first place... an empire. It seems like it acted more like a decentralized federation of states with a central government unable to enforce its rule. So then what was the point?

I blame a lack of coherent vision by numerous authors on what the Empire was supposed to be and meant to be, and the extent of its reach.

Thoughts? How do you treat the Senate in stories or how have you envisioned it? How do we reconcile internal lore contradictions?

Between ROTS and ANH, the Imperial Senate's main strength was in hiding behind the illusion of its power rather than any actual power. The Empire was not openly tyrannical in how it tried to portray itself - its official media-friendly portrayal was that of a legitimate successor to the failed Republic.

As such even though any decision of consequence would be made by the Emperor or one of his appointed governors, it was important to maintain the illusion of authority in the Senate i.e. "the people". Otherwise they might encourage further rebellion/resistance among the populace.

Therefore folks like Princess Leia can try the diplomatic immunity card - its a long-shot, but such a gambit is banking on the Imperial authorities weighing up the cost-vs-benefit of arresting a senator against the perception of such an act amongst the general population. Of course, in ANH Leia overplays her hand as where the Death Star is concerned all bets are off.

Then, with the completion of the Death Star, the illusion is no longer required. Who cares if Joe Average would consider joining the Rebellion when you now have the power to vaporise his entire planet if he steps out of line - and he knows it?

The Imperial Senate - and the way the Empire played along with its supposed authority - is nothing more than a 20-year temporary measure whilst they completed the transition from Republic to total authoritarian rule.

1 hour ago, Prophet 49 said:

Excuse me, but having a legislature with the power to challenge the executive enough to cause problems in running the State does not sound at all how an authoritarian dictatorship is supposed to be run. It sounds more like a dysfunctional democratic republic where freely appointed or elected representatives challenge the executive's policies and cause frequent headaches for his cronies.

Well, I'm not sure Palpatine ever admitted he was an "authoritarian dictator". Not that they ever do, but he was pretty keen to keep up the "kindly Grandpa" face:

"I'm taking on this heavy burden because it's my duty to keep you all safe!"

...and the crowd goes wild...

He kept the Senate partly to preserve the illusion of the people having a voice, and partly because the bureaucracy was too big to replace overnight. There's also the factor that Palpatine transcends every "dictator" in RL simply by having visions of the future, and the patience of a spider.

Anyway, without getting too political, I'd say it's a mirror of what the US has today. Skip the "parties" and just consider "Executive Allegiance". There are politicians for whom the executive can do no wrong, and others for whom the executive can do no right. Presumably the legislative branch still holds many of the purse strings and can decide on levels of taxation, public works, etc. Presumably the executive can veto anything that gets in its way. Meanwhile, Palpatine just works with his allies to slowly replace the functions of the Senate until it can be removed entirely.

2 hours ago, Prophet 49 said:

I blame a lack of coherent vision by numerous authors on what the Empire was supposed to be and meant to be, and the extent of its reach.

I don't think it's as incoherent as you seem to think. There wasn't the open rebellion you seemed to suggest, people were working behind the scenes and doing as much in secret as possible. Nobody (except maybe Saw Guererra) was in open revolt until a couple of years before Yavin. At the same time, the Empire could put on a different face depending where events were happening...so maybe the "incoherence" you feel was simply due to the face of the Empire for the particular story being told.

The Dawn of the Rebellion sourcebook is actually a pretty good resource for this, it dives pretty deeply into the differing perceptions of the Empire across the galaxy, from the happiness in the Core to the disillusionment in the Rim. Well worth the read, and should answer most of your concerns.

So, I wrote the factions senate on the Republic in Rise of the Separatists. I had to do a lot of research about this stuff. My understanding is:

1.) The Republic Senate (and shortly after, the Imperial Senate, which is the same body of senators) had almost no ability to challenge the Emperor politically or legislatively by Ep 3 and onward. When Palpatine declares he IS the senate, he's not kidding or being metaphorical. He had by then consolidated all of their legislative powers into his own office.

2.) While the senate still existed as a legislative body, it was largely an advisory one. They might pass some legislation, and the Emperor might see it and approve it or deny it, giving the illusion of a functioning senate. However, if something had to be done, the senate wasn't at all necessary. The Emperor could just do it. So for boring stuff he didn't acre about, the Emperor might have given the senate some issues to solve he saw as inconsequential. Anything that Palpatine saw as important to his vision, he handled himself.

3.) The Emperor was clearly above the law. The people leading the government were loyal to him, not the Republic or the abstract concept of hte Empire. For instance, if the senate passed a vote of no confidence in Palpatine, which is what removed Valorum from office, it wouldn't matter. No one would physically go remove Palpatine. It's a cult of personality where he is entirely above the law. Because of that, there are no checks and balances whatsoever, which means the senate has basically no power to stop Palpatine from doing whatever he wanted (so long as he could justify it to the citizens that mattered). And in any case, the odds of such a vote passing are small, since most of the corrupt senators are under Palpatine's thumb. He's super adept at manipulating the senate.

4.) There wasn't much in the way of speaking out against Palpatine on the floor of the senate that lasted long. In Claudia Grey's Leia novel, they sort of show this delegation of 2,000 meeting in secret, and the consequences for getting caught conspiring or openly speaking out. It might have happened on occasion, but those people were forced to run or die.

5.) The real power the senate might still have, is in clever use of the media. I do believe Palpatine might have still been subject to the will of the people. He was largely popular in the Core, but he had to work to remain so. So the public face required him to justify any actions that make the news nets in a way that is palatable to his base constituency.

So I wouldn't say they're entirely powerless in the senate to influence the course of government or even entirely control certain issues, but compared to what they were in episode 1 or even 2, they are nothing.

34 minutes ago, KRKappel said:

So, I wrote the factions senate on the Republic in Rise of the Separatists. I had to do a lot of research about this stuff. My understanding is:

1.) The Republic Senate (and shortly after, the Imperial Senate, which is the same body of senators) had almost no ability to challenge the Emperor politically or legislatively by Ep 3 and onward. When Palpatine declares he IS the senate, he's not kidding or being metaphorical. He had by then consolidated all of their legislative powers into his own office.

2.) While the senate still existed as a legislative body, it was largely an advisory one. They might pass some legislation, and the Emperor might see it and approve it or deny it, giving the illusion of a functioning senate. However, if something had to be done, the senate wasn't at all necessary. The Emperor could just do it. So for boring stuff he didn't acre about, the Emperor might have given the senate some issues to solve he saw as inconsequential. Anything that Palpatine saw as important to his vision, he handled himself.

3.) The Emperor was clearly above the law. The people leading the government were loyal to him, not the Republic or the abstract concept of hte Empire. For instance, if the senate passed a vote of no confidence in Palpatine, which is what removed Valorum from office, it wouldn't matter. No one would physically go remove Palpatine. It's a cult of personality where he is entirely above the law. Because of that, there are no checks and balances whatsoever, which means the senate has basically no power to stop Palpatine from doing whatever he wanted (so long as he could justify it to the citizens that mattered). And in any case, the odds of such a vote passing are small, since most of the corrupt senators are under Palpatine's thumb. He's super adept at manipulating the senate.

4.) There wasn't much in the way of speaking out against Palpatine on the floor of the senate that lasted long. In Claudia Grey's Leia novel, they sort of show this delegation of 2,000 meeting in secret, and the consequences for getting caught conspiring or openly speaking out. It might have happened on occasion, but those people were forced to run or die.

5.) The real power the senate might still have, is in clever use of the media. I do believe Palpatine might have still been subject to the will of the people. He was largely popular in the Core, but he had to work to remain so. So the public face required him to justify any actions that make the news nets in a way that is palatable to his base constituency.

So I wouldn't say they're entirely powerless in the senate to influence the course of government or even entirely control certain issues, but compared to what they were in episode 1 or even 2, they are nothing.

What do you think would have happened had the Jedi presented their Palpatine is a Sith Lord to the Senate insyead of xharging in to die?

46 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

What do you think would have happened had the Jedi presented their Palpatine is a Sith Lord to the Senate insyead of xharging in to die?

Based on Palpatine's influence he would have accused the Jedi of trying to seize power.

They wouldn't even accept the Trade Federation had invaded Naboo. And by that time sentiment was starting to turn on the Jedi already. I'm sure it would have been bogged down in procedure and investigation long enough for Palpatine to finish his plan. The senate lost its power before E3. The petition of the 2000 was basically a letter begging palpatine to give up emergency war powers. The fact that the 2000 couldn't legislate them back already shows how powerless they were.

Episode 2 is when they could have stopped him politically. By episode 3, only the Jedi only ever could have stopped him, and it would have been through violence (anakin making a different choice when he walked in on Palpatine and Windu). And had the Jedi killed him, that would have had its own consequences. I'm sure the Jedi would have ended up suffering an inquisition over it, or going into exile.

Even until the end, the Imperial Senate had enough budgetary oversight power that the size of the Executor -class ships was massively under-reported in order to secure funding.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

What do you think would have happened had the Jedi presented their Palpatine is a Sith Lord to the Senate insyead of xharging in to die?

Technically in the EP3 novelization, they presented a voice recording of the "attempt on his life". And Palpatine defended himself as being part of a religious group is not crime by any law (sith lord). But as they said before me, that time the Senate was largely influenced by Palpatine and it's only justification.

15 hours ago, KRKappel said:

They wouldn't even accept the Trade Federation had invaded Naboo. And by that time sentiment was starting to turn on the Jedi already. I'm sure it would have been bogged down in procedure and investigation long enough for Palpatine to finish his plan. The senate lost its power before E3. The petition of the 2000 was basically a letter begging palpatine to give up emergency war powers. The fact that the 2000 couldn't legislate them back already shows how powerless they were.

Episode 2 is when they could have stopped him politically. By episode 3, only the Jedi only ever could have stopped him, and it would have been through violence (anakin making a different choice when he walked in on Palpatine and Windu). And had the Jedi killed him, that would have had its own consequences. I'm sure the Jedi would have ended up suffering an inquisition over it, or going into exile.

Keep in mind that the Trade Federation was part of the Republic Senate. Naboo claimed the Trade Federation had invaded them. The Trade Federation denied it. It was a he said/she said situation. The Senate couldn't make rash decisions without proof, so they had to put together an exploratory committee to examine the situation and find out what was really going on.

It would be like North Dakota sending some National Guard troops across the border into Montana to take control of Fairview MT. Gianforte would stand up in front of the House of Representatives and state that ND invaded his precious MT. Armstrong would deny this and say that the National Guard troops were simply aiding the town of Fairview due to flooding. Gianforte would blame the flooding on ND due to them diverting the Yellowstone River or some such thing. Armstrong would claim that MT had agreed to the river diversion and are just unhappy with the results. The other 433 members of the house wouldn't care because it doesn't affect them, and they certainly wouldn't support one side or the other until they got the facts, saw some opinion polls on the issue, and heard from their party leaders as to which way they should lean on the subject.

1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

Keep in mind that the Trade Federation was part of the Republic Senate. Naboo claimed the Trade Federation had invaded them. The Trade Federation denied it. It was a he said/she said situation. The Senate couldn't make rash decisions without proof, so they had to put together an exploratory committee to examine the situation and find out what was really going on.

It would be like North Dakota sending some National Guard troops across the border into Montana to take control of Fairview MT. Gianforte would stand up in front of the House of Representatives and state that ND invaded his precious MT. Armstrong would deny this and say that the National Guard troops were simply aiding the town of Fairview due to flooding. Gianforte would blame the flooding on ND due to them diverting the Yellowstone River or some such thing. Armstrong would claim that MT had agreed to the river diversion and are just unhappy with the results. The other 433 members of the house wouldn't care because it doesn't affect them, and they certainly wouldn't support one side or the other until they got the facts, saw some opinion polls on the issue, and heard from their party leaders as to which way they should lean on the subject.

And what makes you think accusing Palpatine of being a Sith Lord would go any differently?

Thanks for the answers so far. I guess one of my main issues I have is why ImpIntel or ISB didn't have some of the more dissident senators like Mothma under seriously high levels of surveillance. Any sign of traitorous activity and she "disappears". They seemed to wait a while before deciding she was a potential threat. They could have snuffed out the entire rebellion years before it gained the slightest bit of steam.

1 hour ago, Prophet 49 said:

Thanks for the answers so far. I guess one of my main issues I have is why ImpIntel or ISB didn't have some of the more dissident senators like Mothma under seriously high levels of surveillance. Any sign of traitorous activity and she "disappears". They seemed to wait a while before deciding she was a potential threat. They could have snuffed out the entire rebellion years before it gained the slightest bit of steam.

Mon Mothma was likely running under the moacow rules https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moscow_rules

1 hour ago, Prophet 49 said:

Thanks for the answers so far. I guess one of my main issues I have is why ImpIntel or ISB didn't have some of the more dissident senators like Mothma under seriously high levels of surveillance. Any sign of traitorous activity and she "disappears". They seemed to wait a while before deciding she was a potential threat. They could have snuffed out the entire rebellion years before it gained the slightest bit of steam.

This is pretty much spelled out in the first season of Rebels. When dissidents are identified, they are watched and monitored. The really troublesome ones have "accidents". This way the Empire can maintain deniability and appear to not have a heavy hand. Mon Mothma and Bail Organa were much more careful than many of the others. If they objected to what Palpatine was doing, it was done in a way so as not to seem to be targeting Palpatine himself. Mon Mothma only went into hiding after naming the Emperor himself as being the problem. Part of her speech is in one of the later Rebels episodes.

Honestly, if you haven't watched it, Rebels is a gold mine for that kind of thing.

2 hours ago, Prophet 49 said:

Thanks for the answers so far. I guess one of my main issues I have is why ImpIntel or ISB didn't have some of the more dissident senators like Mothma under seriously high levels of surveillance. Any sign of traitorous activity and she "disappears". They seemed to wait a while before deciding she was a potential threat. They could have snuffed out the entire rebellion years before it gained the slightest bit of steam.

Watch the cut scene from Revenge of the Sith, when Mothma, Bail and Padme sits together and starts tovlay down the bases of the rebellion

19 hours ago, Rimsen said:

Technically in the EP3 novelization, they presented a voice recording of the "attempt on his life". And Palpatine defended himself as being part of a religious group is not crime by any law (sith lord). But as they said before me, that time the Senate was largely influenced by Palpatine and it's only justification.

That is why i thought their confronting him as they did was dumb. They shpuld have assembled all tje clues. Presented greivouses deathto the senate. When he didnt give up powers present the other evidence.

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

That is why i thought their confronting him as they did was dumb. They shpuld have assembled all tje clues. Presented greivouses deathto the senate. When he didnt give up powers present the other evidence.

Problem remains that he still had a rather loyal supermajority in the Senate, as well as enough knowledge of how to work the system that he most likely would have been found innocent by any judicial investigations through various means of influence; the feds pretty much knew that Al Capone was guilty of all sorts of criminal activities, but could never get a conviction on them in court, and pretty much had to settle for taking him down on tax evasion.

Plus the whole "Sith Lord" aspect making him a very serious threat, one that the Jedi knew from history wasn't going to be able to be contained; putting him in a prison would be akin trying to put an irate Hulk into a conventional prison cell or locking MacGuyver in a well-stocked storage closet.

16 hours ago, KRKappel said:

And what makes you think accusing Palpatine of being a Sith Lord would go any differently?

Whoa now. I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out something a lot of people seem to miss. The Trade Federation wasn't separate from the Republic, or an enemy of the Republic, they were a member. The senate was too large, too diverse, and it lacked any sort of oversight to keep them in line. Senate members were basically above the law, and they knew it. The good members wanted to make sure their actions were just and the bad ones used this as a way to manipulate the entire Republic. It's how Palpy was able to play his game. He saw the cracks and dug his talons in. When the Separatists broke free, they were desperate for strong leadership to unite them, and Palpy again provided the solution.

I don't believe that exposing him would have done a **** thing once they allowed him to rise to power. The Jedi did have options, they just took the path of least resistance and allowed evil and corruption to thrive under their watch.

I think part of the reason mon mothma made it so long without an accident was that she was insanely popular (She was also super smart and toed the line on acceptable dissent). She was like the Alexandria Ocasio Cortez of her time (very young, very popular and well-known, probably a little divisive when she first started). So the higher your profile is, the more it might take before you get taken out. Same with Bail Organa.

And really, Palpatine wouldn't want ZERO dissent. A bit of token dissent is probably useful to him. So long as he can still manipulate events and get the results he wants without having to seem like the bad guy, he's fine. Having an opposition means you can blame them for stuff.

On 7/18/2019 at 11:33 PM, whafrog said:

Honestly, if you haven't watched it, Rebels is a gold mine for that kind of thing.

Oh, I've watched it. Although I don't really remember the show discussing the nature of the Senate and such. I remember when Mothma called out Palpatine for the Ghorman Massacre in Season 3 (I think), but again it seems like she was already trouble for the Empire by that point, and I question why she wasn't quietly eliminated sooner.

On 7/19/2019 at 11:43 AM, KRKappel said:

And really, Palpatine wouldn't want ZERO dissent. A bit of token dissent is probably useful to him. So long as he can still manipulate events and get the results he wants without having to seem like the bad guy, he's fine. Having an opposition means you can blame them for stuff.

I agree, token dissent is something that modern dictators use. Except this wasn't token dissent. It was legitimate opposition and potentially dangerous to the stability of the Empire's political order.

I recently read the "Scum and Villainy" book, and the second section discusses the ISB and its operations against insurgent and criminal groups aiming to undermine the Empire. There's a section about Mothma and Organa, and it basically spells out that the ISB is aware of their dissident activities and had them under close watch. Except they didn't do anything about their opposition. That is literally ISB's primary, single job. Ooh my, what a terrifying secret police.

I guess where I'm hung up at is the idea of reconciling different interpretations of how the Galactic Empire is supposed to be portrayed:

On one hand, you have the Empire akin to ancient Rome. The existence of the Senate where old guard senators of a dead republic hang on to slivers of influence as they try to counter the new Emperor where they can, only to eventually be undermined fully and cast out as traitors and has-beens while the Emperor gains absolute authority steadily.

On the other hand, you have the Empire as a model of 20th Century authoritarian states, notably Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. This is more prevalent in the EU and the RPGs. This version of the Empire has all the hallmarks of the totalitarian states of yesteryear, from intelligence/spy agencies (Imperial Intelligence) to the competing military classes (Generationals vs Tarkinists) to the ideologically fanatical Party apparatus (COMPNOR/ISB). The old Imperial Sourcebook illustrated this model of the Empire very well.

Except, the former model is incompatible with the latter, and that is where my issues come in. You cannot have a senate with representatives openly dissenting publicly against the Imperial State while simultaneously having a secret police network that "ensures ideological consistency" within the Empire. It doesn't make sense. Especially since these senators were representing very influential core world systems with the ability to sway public opinion. If you are going to have a senate, it needs to be completely neutered and fully under the Emperor's control, even if the public thinks its legit. Then you have the legitimacy of the senate but it is a rubber stamp with loyalist members appointed/approved by the Party/ruler.

I don't know, man, the more I think about this the less it makes sense. Palpatine was really good at coming to power, but it seems like he lost a lot of brain cells when Mace Windu deflected that lightning back into his face, and failed in the actual running a dictatorship part of the job.

1 hour ago, Prophet 49 said:

Oh, I've watched it. Although I don't really remember the show discussing the nature of the Senate and such. I remember when Mothma called out Palpatine for the Ghorman Massacre in Season 3 (I think), but again it seems like she was already trouble for the Empire by that point, and I question why she wasn't quietly eliminated sooner.

I agree, token dissent is something that modern dictators use. Except this wasn't token dissent. It was legitimate opposition and potentially dangerous to the stability of the Empire's political order.

I recently read the "Scum and Villainy" book, and the second section discusses the ISB and its operations against insurgent and criminal groups aiming to undermine the Empire. There's a section about Mothma and Organa, and it basically spells out that the ISB is aware of their dissident activities and had them under close watch. Except they didn't do anything about their opposition. That is literally ISB's primary, single job. Ooh my, what a terrifying secret police.

I guess where I'm hung up at is the idea of reconciling different interpretations of how the Galactic Empire is supposed to be portrayed:

On one hand, you have the Empire akin to ancient Rome. The existence of the Senate where old guard senators of a dead republic hang on to slivers of influence as they try to counter the new Emperor where they can, only to eventually be undermined fully and cast out as traitors and has-beens while the Emperor gains absolute authority steadily.

On the other hand, you have the Empire as a model of 20th Century authoritarian states, notably Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. This is more prevalent in the EU and the RPGs. This version of the Empire has all the hallmarks of the totalitarian states of yesteryear, from intelligence/spy agencies (Imperial Intelligence) to the competing military classes (Generationals vs Tarkinists) to the ideologically fanatical Party apparatus (COMPNOR/ISB). The old Imperial Sourcebook illustrated this model of the Empire very well.

Except, the former model is incompatible with the latter, and that is where my issues come in. You cannot have a senate with representatives openly dissenting publicly against the Imperial State while simultaneously having a secret police network that "ensures ideological consistency" within the Empire. It doesn't make sense. Especially since these senators were representing very influential core world systems with the ability to sway public opinion. If you are going to have a senate, it needs to be completely neutered and fully under the Emperor's control, even if the public thinks its legit. Then you have the legitimacy of the senate but it is a rubber stamp with loyalist members appointed/approved by the Party/ruler.

I don't know, man, the more I think about this the less it makes sense. Palpatine was really good at coming to power, but it seems like he lost a lot of brain cells when Mace Windu deflected that lightning back into his face, and failed in the actual running a dictatorship part of the job.

It probably needs to be a middle road between the 2. How you do that i dont know. Part of the problem is so many of the books are written plot driven instead of character driven

On 7/18/2019 at 4:02 AM, Subhntr said:

Even until the end, the Imperial Senate had enough budgetary oversight power that the size of the Executor -class ships was massively under-reported in order to secure funding.

Though this was due to the exposure of the Sarlacc Project that had the prototype SSD built covertly using laundered money.

1 hour ago, NanashiAnon said:

Sarlacc Project

Doesn't it seem weird that so many things are named after Tatooine Fauna in the Star Wars Universe. What are the odds of Imperial military planners ever even hearing about the great and mighty Sarlacc?

2 hours ago, Eoen said:

Doesn't it seem weird that so many things are named after Tatooine Fauna in the Star Wars Universe. What are the odds of Imperial military planners ever even hearing about the great and mighty Sarlacc?

Sarlaccs aren't only found on Tatooine. Wookieepedia references a canon kids novel set between RotJ and TFA where a Resistance unit runs into one on Vodran, for instance.

20 hours ago, Dafydd said:

Sarlaccs aren't only found on Tatooine. Wookieepedia references a canon kids novel set between RotJ and TFA where a Resistance unit runs into one on Vodran, for instance.

OK three planets out of billions. Tatooine must have been famous because of the Boonta Eve Classic.