2 hours ago, DarthDarxide said:

I’m still not sure why everyone thinks intimidation has to trigger before predictive shot.

If you look at the cards, predictive shot tells you the maximum amount of dice you can roll but not a minimum.

Intimidation tells you that the defender rolls 1 less.

Keep in mind you must declare who you are attacking and then spend a force charge to trigger predictive shot. Then you check for other effects, keeping in mind that the defender “cannot” roll more dice than hit/crit results. But there is nothing on the card or in the RR that says you “cannot” roll less defense dice than predictive shot allows.

I wonder if strained or tractored ships are free from rolling 1 fewer defense dice when being shot by predictive shot as well?

🍻

If it would still make them roll more yes.

Intimidation must comme first because for predective shot you need to know the final value of the number of dice you will throw.

5 hours ago, DarthDarxide said:

I’m still not sure why everyone thinks intimidation has to trigger before predictive shot.

If you look at the cards, predictive shot tells you the maximum amount of dice you can roll but not a minimum.

Intimidation tells you that the defender rolls 1 less.

Keep in mind you must declare who you are attacking and then spend a force charge to trigger predictive shot. Then you check for other effects, keeping in mind that the defender “cannot” roll more dice than hit/crit results. But there is nothing on the card or in the RR that says you “cannot” roll less defense dice than predictive shot allows.

I wonder if strained or tractored ships are free from rolling 1 fewer defense dice when being shot by predictive shot as well?

🍻

we don't. we think the effect of predictive shot is ongoing during the Roll Defence Dice step, which is what the card says. we also think that Intimidation reduces the number of dice rolled by one, which is what the card says.

there is no reason for predictive shot to tell you the minimum number of dice you can roll, because it will always be zero.

you can definitely roll less defence dice than predictive shot allows. please keep in mind that there are several effects that lowers the agility of ships or makes them roll less green dice when defending (outmaneuver, tractor beam, structural damage, wedge, strain, etcetera). there are also several ships that have zero agility to begin with. and a lot that have just one agility.

of course strained and tractored ships cannot ignore efffects of strain tokens or tractor tokens just because there is suddenly an upper limit to the number of dice you can roll.

8 hours ago, Maui. said:

This is the procedure for rolling defense dice:

Intimidation decreases the number of defense dice, so it's 100% clear where it fits into that procedure. Predictive Shot does not affect agility, range, or obstruction, nor does it increase or decrease the number of defense dice; rather, it places an upper limit on the number of dice that can be rolled.

That’s exactly my point, the card says nothing about lowering the amount of dice pool after the maximum has been determined.

On 7/15/2019 at 10:48 AM, Maui. said:

I would argue that Predictive Shot does not add or remove dice, it simply limits the number you may roll, so Intimidation must necessarily apply before Predictive Shot.

Please show me on the card where it says you cannot roll more defense dice than the number of hit and crit results “but not less or exactly the amount of hit and crit results”

1 hour ago, DarthDarxide said:

That’s exactly my point, the card says nothing about lowering the amount of dice pool after the maximum has been determined.

The procedure is to calculate the number of defense dice to roll using agility value, range bonus, obstruction, and abilities that increase/decrease the number of dice. "Determine the maximum number" is not a part of that calculation, so once you've calculated the total number of defense dice, you compare it to the maximum number, and if you have more than the maximum, you roll the maximum instead.

1 hour ago, DarthDarxide said:

Please show me on the card where it says you cannot roll more defense dice than the number of hit and crit results “but not less or exactly the amount of hit and crit results”

I don't know what you're talking about.

3 hours ago, DarthDarxide said:

Please show me on the card where it says you cannot roll more defense dice than the number of hit and crit results “but not less or exactly the amount of hit and crit results”

No one say you can't roll less. People say that you have to apply every possible modification to the number of dice, THEN you check if it go over the maximum fixed by Predective Shot.

To find if you go over a maximum you have to calculate everything first.

You can't just arbitrarily decide to do all the positive, check if it go over the maximum, then do all the negative. You have to finish the calculation. Predective Shot is not a negative, it is a treshold that cut what go over it in the end.

After much more reading and rethinking, I have realized the error in my thought process.

Thanks for the replies that helped me get in the right frame of mind. I am now in camp 2 as well 👍🏼

🍻

I am just curious, cause I only play Empire, is there a pilot that can take a Force and a Talent? where this would come up?

Never mind... my bad. Intimidation can be on a different ship.

I haven't read every comment in detail so excuse me if this has already been said.

My 2 cents is that Predictive Shot would happen during the same time that you inherently floor a player from rolling fewer than 0 dice which is after all explicit modifiers have been incorporated.

Technically, when Blackout performs an obstructed, range 2 attack against RAC the calculation comes out to -1 green dice but you obviously just roll 0. I think everybody is in agreement that you do NOT however get to choose the order in which the floor is enforced. For example, you can't do 0 (base) - 2 (Blackout) = -2 which is floored at 0 and then add 1 for obstruction resulting in 1 overall.

Incorporating all explicit modifiers first then all implicit modifiers (floors and ceilings) seems like something we've always been doing but has been overlooked.

4 hours ago, MadTownXWing said:

My 2 cents is that Predictive Shot would happen during the same time that you inherently floor a player from rolling fewer than 0 dice which is after all explicit modifiers have been incorporated...

(snip)

...Incorporating all explicit modifiers first then all implicit modifiers (floors and ceilings) seems like something we've always been doing but has been overlooked.

This is actually a very astute observation, and it makes a HEKUVA lot of sense to me. The "no less than zero" restriction seems absurd in the real world (how can you roll less than no dice), but that does make sense... when Outmaneuver Wedge attacks a Decimator at Range 1, the Decimator doesn't roll -2 green dice (although now my brain is trying to figure out how that would even WORK).