When flipping over a units order token to add their dice into an attack pool with Fire Support.
Does that step count as the end of that units activation, or would the damage from emergency stims not be applied?
This is confusing me heavily especially with fire support already skipping Panic effects.
Edited by Matt3412
Fire Support is not an activation, but the unit is considered to have activated.
"That unit is considered to have activated and cannot be activated during that round."
I would interpret that as there is no "end of activation" step or window since it "cannot be activated" that round.
After they added their dice to the pool and their order token has flipped upside down, they count as activated.
Imo that means that stims will trigger since they did "activate". Even it is just considered as.
Edited by Staelwulf1 hour ago, Staelwulf said:After they added their dice to the pool and their order token has flipped upside down, they count as activated.
Imo that means that stims will trigger since they did "activate". Even it is just considered as.
This will probably need to be errata'd, but it's almost certainly the intent. The question is whether emergency stims will be targeted specifically, or if other end of activation triggers (Like Regenerate) will trigger as well.
The fire support unit counts as “activated”, meaning it does not get to activate as normal. There is no end of activation step, nor rally step. So you can FS to prevent panic and/or suffering the wounds from stims. Keep in mind that stims exhausts, so you can’t permanently keep a unit alive this way; if you keep shooting it will suffer those wounds.
Also, it should be difficult in practice to get an order onto that unit every turn after stims has been used. This is one of those things that seems strong or broken in the abstract space of “on paper”, but I think it’s totally fine.
Edited by nashjaee2 hours ago, nashjaee said:The fire support unit counts as “activated”, meaning it does not get to activate as normal. There is no end of activation step, nor rally step. So you can FS to prevent panic and/or suffering the wounds from stims. Keep in mind that stims exhausts, so you can’t permanently keep a unit alive this way; if you keep shooting it will suffer those wounds.
Also, it should be difficult in practice to get an order onto that unit every turn after stims has been used. This is one of those things that seems strong or broken in the abstract space of “on paper”, but I think it’s totally fine.
Oh I agree 100% that its going to be very difficult to implement and in reality is just going to act like a 8 point dodge once or twice a game.
The balance is already there its expensive, you must sacrifice order flexibility and the enemy just keeps shooting at it
Edited by Matt3412No unit with fire support can take emergency stims yet though so currently it's not an issue.
8 minutes ago, syrath said:No unit with fire support can take emergency stims yet though so currently it's not an issue.
Emergency stims is a Gear upgrade.
Every corps to my knowledge has a gear upgrade slot.
Clones with fire support and Emergency stims is definitely possible.
5 hours ago, Squark said:This will probably need to be errata'd, but it's almost certainly the intent. The question is whether emergency stims will be targeted specifically, or if other end of activation triggers (Like Regenerate) will trigger as well.
No need, it says on RRG 36
That unit is considered to have activated
2 hours ago, Matt3412 said:Emergency stims is a Gear upgrade.
Every corps to my knowledge has a gear upgrade slot.
Clones with fire support and Emergency stims is definitely possible.
The Mk2 Medium Blaster Trooper is only equitable with comms, I suspect the mortar emplacment that comes with the short trooper will be the same.
Edit if your don't believe me have a look on this page
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/7/2/rebel-spirit-1/
Sorry didn't realise you were referring to the clone wars stuff. I haven't looked that far ahead, however I'm fairly sure the rules still have it covered on RRG 36
Edited by syrath3 minutes ago, syrath said:The Mk2 Medium Blaster Trooper is only equitable with comms, I suspect the mortar emplacment that comes with the short trooper will be the same.
Edit if your don't believe me have a look on this page
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/7/2/rebel-spirit-1/
Right, it's a tactic that won't be possible until the new core set is released. Clones have units with Fire Support and a gear slot.
4 minutes ago, nashjaee said:Right, it's a tactic that won't be possible until the new core set is released. Clones have units with Fire Support and a gear slot.
Yeah, Ninjad as I was correcting as above, however the RRG does say you are treated as activated.
Edited by syrath1 minute ago, syrath said:Yeah, Nokia's as I was correcting as above, however the RRG does say you are treated as activated.
Correct, you're treated as activated. But you did not actually activate. Therefore you never hit an "end of activation" trigger. All it does is prevent you from activating during that round.
It's exactly the same as the interaction with panic (Luke Eddy used this tactic on stream). You didn't go through an activation, so you didn't hit a rally step. Therefore you never had an opportunity to panic.
2 hours ago, nashjaee said:Correct, you're treated as activated. But you did not actually activate. Therefore you never hit an "end of activation" trigger. All it does is prevent you from activating during that round.
It's exactly the same as the interaction with panic (Luke Eddy used this tactic on stream). You didn't go through an activation, so you didn't hit a rally step. Therefore you never had an opportunity to panic.
If you’re treated as activated upon offering fire support, than ipso facto that is the end of the activation.
3 minutes ago, Derrault said:If you’re treated as activated upon offering fire support, than ipso facto that is the end of the activation.
Not really. You are treated as activated. You didn't actually activate.
Just now, nashjaee said:Not really. You are treated as activated. You didn't actually activate.
Treated as activated is, definitionally having activated for all intents and purposes.
2 minutes ago, Derrault said:Treated as activated is, definitionally having activated for all intents and purposes.
Where is this definition?
Do you also disagree on the topic of panic with respect to FS? Because we know for certain how that one works.
11 minutes ago, nashjaee said:Where is this definition?
Do you also disagree on the topic of panic with respect to FS? Because we know for certain how that one works.
Well, in English we use past tense to denote a thing that has happened.
Activated is the past tense of activate; which is what we are discussing. So, given that the condition is dependent on the ‘end’ of the activation, the point in time at which it has “activated” is the end. Again, by definition.
At the end of your activation you take those wounds
RRG 36 does specify that your are treated as activated having used fire support. I'm sure you will see a rules clarification on it, but technically it won't be an errata IMO. If you are treated as having been activated then your activation is also treated as having been ended. Although I'm curious how things will work as you essentially skip your rally step and therefore won't be considered suppressed or having panicked.
3 minutes ago, Derrault said:Well, in English we use past tense to denote a thing that has happened.
Activated is the past tense of activate; which is what we are discussing. So, given that the condition is dependent on the ‘end’ of the activation, the point in time at which it has “activated” is the end. Again, by definition.
Interestingly the RRG entry also says that the unit "[...] cannot be activated during that round". If you triggered an end-of-activation effect, don't you think you've violated that line?
And you didn't answer the other question. If you get an end-of-activation, do you also get a rally step? Why or why not?
7 minutes ago, nashjaee said:Interestingly the RRG entry also says that the unit "[...] cannot be activated during that round". If you triggered an end-of-activation effect, don't you think you've violated that line?
And you didn't answer the other question. If you get an end-of-activation, do you also get a rally step? Why or why not?
It’s a compound statement, so they’re providing covering language against some abuse of language to try and activate the unit again.
Rally is a step of activation; it’s skipped because the token is simply flipped facedown and considered activated (past tense).
Upside, it can’t panic either. So I wouldn’t complain about the lack of rally.
2 minutes ago, Derrault said:It’s a compound statement, so they’re providing covering language against some abuse of language to try and activate the unit again.
Rally is a step of activation; it’s skipped because the token is simply flipped facedown and considered activated (past tense).
Upside, it can’t panic either. So I wouldn’t complain about the lack of rally.
So why do we skip the rally step, but not any end of activation steps? Why would you get to pick and choose?
And it doesn't say "cannot activate again ". It says "cannot activate".
10 minutes ago, nashjaee said:So why do we skip the rally step, but not any end of activation steps? Why would you get to pick and choose?
And it doesn't say "cannot activate again ". It says "cannot activate".
Because you don’t start the activation, only end it.
Rally, RRG page 51: “ During the “Rally” step of a unit’s activation”
Normally I'd say if you don't start activation, there's not an end of activation, but the line in fire support:
Quote"After using the fire support keyword, a unit must flip that order token facedown. That unit is considered to have activated and cannot be activated during that round."
seems to indicate that you'd trigger "end of activation" stuff right then.
"End of activation" isn't a defined step within a unit's normal activation*. Therefore, I reckon one should look at at what physically ends a unit's activation. The last thing the RRG tells you to do during an activation is flip the unit's order token face down. Fire support tells you to do this as well, once the ability has been used, and the text immediately following that in the RRG says that the unit is now activated. Physically that is the "end of activation".
If I were officiating a tournament, I wouldn't let fire support skip stims.
If I went to one where they were letting it do that, I wouldn't challenge it, because nothing is stated explicitly and I don't need to be the guy causing headaches at someone else's tournament over maybe two extra wounds on the one unit type that can pull it off.
If I ran into someone at the games store who I'd never met and thought differently I'd roll off, like my ancestors did in their games of 40k around the cave fire.
*Heck, activated vs un-activated aren't explicitly defined in the RRG. We just all know what those terms mean from context. Contextually, fire support indicates that the unit ends an activation when it finishes using fire support.
Interesting debate, I GET the original question.
Re-worded: While on FFG LIVE it was clearly stated that fire support would for that round at least skip the rally step of the unit used and instantly end that units turn for the round; however really doesn't answer the question about what happens at the end of that units activation when if comes to effects since it is instantly considered activated; which upon being activated would or would not any effects then be applied that specifically should be happening upon the end of a units activation ?
When it comes to my opinion, I'd ask FFG. As it really doesn't clearly answer your question.