1 minute ago, gothound said:

So what's the verdict? Yay or nay with R4 interacting with Corva?

RAW slightly favors one way while RAI slightly favors the other. The verdict is we wait for an FAQ. Until then, poll?

Just now, ClassicalMoser said:

The verdict is we wait for an FAQ. Until then, poll?

Which means for tournaments it will be based on what ever the TO says

1 minute ago, gothound said:

Which means for tournaments it will be based on what ever the TO says

Yeah, so if your list depends on the interaction, check with your TO beforehand. And try to get their ruling in writing so you have proof 😕

found the rule that throws the R4/Pattern/Cova combo in the garbage based on the "check difficulty step"

Quote

• If a stressed ship attempts to execute a maneuver with a red difficulty, the ship performs a white [2 󲁞] maneuver instead.

if difficulty was only checked after the movement, then you would never do a white 2 when stressed.

You don't finish executing a manuever until the check difficulty step is complete, though

So you will be doing an illegal manuever and then have to redo it as a white 2-foward

Which makes sense as generally dialing a red while stressed is a mistake, especially if you don't account for stuff that increases difficulty (damaged engines)

Same thing if you do a red turn but you got r4, it's a white manuever before you finish executing it.

...I gave this **** way too much thought because I'm always paranoid I've overlooked something...

while I understand your logic @ficklegreendice I do not agree with your ruling. a clarification for this appears to be required.

Also, the Hera/Nein combo does not appear in the RR/FAQ section. therefore the precedence does carry from 1.0 which I don't think we should assume makes it correct.

For sure,

I'm honestly hoping my interpretation isn't correct and don't really believe ffg didn't intend it

But their formatting ain't the best, so here I am.

Point is, if I ever played against you fine folk I'd never insist on my ruling. Even if I feel I've read it correctly, it's pretty bum from an enjoyment standpoint next to having r4 just alter the dang dial

• abilities that have a trigger ("after you reveal your dial") and refer to "that maneuver" (Leia, Seasoned Navigator) have an implied timing that lasts until the end of activation
• abilities without a timing window (R4 Astromech, Nien) are always active

R4 + Nell =

Leia + Nell =

Connix + Nell = , unless the maneuver you change to was already red by default

Leia + Pattern Analyzer =

Pattern Analyzer + Damaged Engine =

Hera + Nien =

Hera + Leia =

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

• abilities that have a trigger ("after you reveal your dial") and refer to "that maneuver" (Leia, Seasoned Navigator) have an implied timing that lasts until the end of activation
• abilities without a timing window (R4 Astromech, Nien) are always active

R4 + Nell =

Leia + Nell =

Connix + Nell = , unless the maneuver you change to was already red by default

Leia + Pattern Analyzer =

Pattern Analyzer + Damaged Engine =

Hera + Nien =

Hera + Leia =

what about Kanan with Sense and Cassian

I don't see any reason to assume that the difficulty change only applies during that one step. Any time the difficulty is checked for any reason, including saesii, Hera, cova, whatever, you check to see what difficulty the maneuver is. That is the trigger for R4. I still don't see why additional analysis is needed.

@Wiredin if you keep reading the stress excerpt it specifies that abilities that reduce difficulty can trigger at this point.

For reference; pg.18 of RR;

STRESS

A ship is stressed while it has at least one stress token. A stressed ship cannot execute red maneuvers or perform actions. The stress token is a red token.

• A ship receives one stress token while it executes a red maneuver or after it performs a red action. Additionally, a ship removes one stress token while it executes a blue maneuver.

• If a stressed ship attempts to execute a red maneuver, it instead executes a white [2 󲁞] maneuver.

◊ After a stressed ship reveals a red maneuver, abilities that change the maneuver can be used . After resolving these abilities, if the ship would still execute a red maneuver, it instead executes a white [2 󲁞] maneuver.

As the RR states a manoeuvre has 3 components, the 'changing of a manoeuvre' from the above could be understood to refer to any or all 3 of these parts. R4 would come under this section as it changes the difficulty.

Pg.6 RR (for reference);

Each maneuver has three components: speed (a number 0–5), difficulty (red, white, or blue), and bearing (an arrow or other symbol). Each bearing is also defined with a direction, including straight, left, or right.

6 hours ago, svelok said:

• Connix + Nell + R4 = ❓

I already know the answer, but I wanna watch the forums burn....

That is beginning to be quite a headache.... and a change of mind for me

I have read again and again the text of Leia, Connix and R4, and all the cards are saying the same thing (increase/decrease the difficulty of the maneuver). So, IMHO:
- The color of the revealed maneuver will be the color used for all the abilities in the engagement phase. If you reveal a red, then Nell adds dices
- Everything that changes the difficulty of the maneuver doesn'T change the dial, it only changes the final result. So:
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red revealed = stress, dices added
- Leia + Nell + Red revealed = no stress, action, dices added
- R4 + Nell + Red revealed, speed 1-2 = no stress, action, dices added
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red revealed + already stressed = 2 white straight

In conclusion with this state of mind:
- Leia can help the transport to be more maneuvrable with their red maneuvers/action possibility, and less predictable.
- R4 is good, but not necessairly with Nell, because the transport will HAVE to do 1 hard to get his added die combined with an action
- Connix is not that good, because you ahve to do a white maneuver to get added dices(so basically, you will have to do a 2 bank or hard). Connix and R4 is also not-so-good combo, because you limit yourself to only reds maneuvers, or only whites to get extra dice.

With all those combos, I prefer BY FAR:
- Nodin with Kor Sella and R4 at 44pts. You do a red coordinate, you can do a red action for you after. Next turn, you got R4 who turns all the white into blues, so you have flexibility to maneuver, and Kor Sella removes all your stresses, so rinse and repeat.

Bring that with 3 Heroic Black Squadron Aces Xs and you have something interesting to start with.

20 hours ago, BVRCH said:

• If a stressed ship attempts to execute a red maneuver, it instead executes a white [2 󲁞] maneuver.

◊ After a stressed ship reveals a red maneuver, abilities that change the maneuver can be used . After resolving these abilities, if the ship would still execute a red maneuver, it instead executes a white [2 󲁞] maneuver.

7 hours ago, Silver_leader said:

- The color of the revealed maneuver will be the color used for all the abilities in the engagement phase. If you reveal a red, then Nell adds dices
- Everything that changes the difficulty of the maneuver doesn'T change the dial, it only changes the final result. So:
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red revealed = stress, dices added
- Leia + Nell + Red revealed = no stress, action, dices added
- R4 + Nell + Red revealed, speed 1-2 = no stress, action, dices added
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red revealed + already stressed = 2 white straight

But doesn't that quote from the RR specifically say that it can change the color of the revealed maneuver? After all, it's basically one more proof that such effects can proc outside of the "Check Difficulty" step of performing a maneuver.

Ergo:
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red -> White -> Red revealed = stress, dice added
- Leia + Nell + Red -> [Temporary White] revealed = no stress, action, [reverts to red] dice added
- R4 + Nell + Red -> White revealed, speed 1-2 = no stress, action, no dice added
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red -> White -> Red revealed + already stressed = 2 white straight

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But doesn't that quote from the RR specifically say that it can change the color of the revealed maneuver? After all, it's basically one more proof that such effects can proc outside of the "Check Difficulty" step of performing a maneuver.

Ergo:
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red -> White -> Red revealed = stress, dice added
- Leia + Nell + Red -> [Temporary White] revealed = no stress, action, [reverts to red] dice added
- R4 + Nell + Red -> White revealed, speed 1-2 = no stress, action, no dice added
- Connix + Nell + R4 + Red -> White -> Red revealed + already stressed = 2 white straight

Indeed, it changes the color of the revealed maneuver, but for the activation phase only IMHO. When the maneuver is done, you put your dial on your ship card. The maneuver that the ship did has a color, and this color will define if an ability is triggered during the engagement phase, i.e. Nell. Having to remember what modified your maneuver in the engagement phase with maybe 10 ships firing at each other can be really messy for both players. Especially with a force user like Leia that can pop from nowhere.

4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But doesn't that quote from the RR specifically say that it can change the color of the revealed maneuver? After all, it's basically one more proof that such effects can proc outside of the "Check Difficulty" step of performing a maneuver.

I mean I don't know, but what it specifically says is; after you reveal a red manoeuvre, you may change the manoeuvre with an applicable ability. It doesn't specifically say it changes the revealed manoeuvre.

I took that as it is able to change the manoeuvre you execute, not necessarily the revealed manoeuvre. I don't believe the two are inextricably tied, and this is one excerpt I've found to support this idea. Both of these windows (Check difficulty) occur after revealing the dial, and R4 does not use the word revealed, unlike Cova's text.

That's my thought process anyway.

On 7/11/2019 at 8:04 PM, Wiredin said:

Hera Syndulla

After you reveal a red or blue maneuver, you may set your dial to another maneuver of the same difficulty.

Nien Nunb

Decrease the difficulty of your bank maneuvers

On this specific question. I agree that Cova does proc with R4 as it is outside the activation, clearly meeting what is stating in the RR. The RR says that a ship's revealed maneuver OUTSIDE of the ship's activation is treated as the move indicated on the dial. This means during activation, do you take things in effect such as Nien Nunb, which means Hera works as her ability is triggered during activation and RR states of things outside activation. How will this come into play?

1 hour ago, PsychoCC said:

On this specific question. I agree that Cova does proc with R4 as it is outside the activation, clearly meeting what is stating in the RR. The RR says that a ship's revealed maneuver OUTSIDE of the ship's activation is treated as the move indicated on the dial. This means during activation, do you take things in effect such as Nien Nunb, which means Hera works as her ability is triggered during activation and RR states of things outside activation. How will this come into play?

Outside the activation, it is the selected move that we look for. Folks seem to overlook heavily - this rule says nothing about being printed, just selected. Why couldn't ongoing game effects change what's available for selection on your dial, just like they can change what's available for selection on your action bar? The colour printed doesn't change, because duh - that's how printing works. But if you look at both your dial and your cards, we could easily deduce what's the final content of your dial. Food for thoughts.

14 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

Outside the activation, it is the selected move that we look for. Folks seem to overlook heavily - this rule says nothing about being printed, just selected. Why couldn't ongoing game effects change what's available for selection on your dial, just like they can change what's available for selection on your action bar? The colour printed doesn't change, because duh - that's how printing works. But if you look at both your dial and your cards, we could easily deduce what's the final content of your dial. Food for thoughts.

Without derailing the question about Hera and Nien first. How does this interaction work as this happens during the activation, so the updated RR only mentions outside of activation? So basically revealed move vs actual maneuver, how do they differ in the activation phase or are they the same?

The RR states what is on revealed on your dial is taken as the move. Nowhere in the rule does it say R4 changes my dial, it changes my move. Also again, in the rules, it says a card upgrade adds that action to the action bar. So it is done like this due to RAW. R4 changing your dial/move is for interpretation and the closest for R4 is that it updates the move, Cova does not proc with the move but what is in your dial. The RAW does not say anywhere for me that my dial is different due to an "ongoing" effect (also assumed by the way, again, this is treated in the activation). Now, for RAI, I can understand the other argument and can see how it can go both ways, but an official ruling is required for how this should be treated. Till then, I see in the rules as written that I should use what is shown on my dial outside activation and nowhere do I see that my dial has different colours now due to an effect.

3 minutes ago, PsychoCC said:

nowhere  do I see that my dial has different colours now due to an effect  

"Each maneuver has three components: speed (a number 0–5), difficulty (red, white, or blue), and bearing (an arrow or other symbol)."

"Decrease the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers."

For what it’s worth, I am in the Moser camp. FGD is adding layers of complexity that aren’t there. You reveal a red, R4 reduces it to white. Do move. The way FGD wants it to work seems unintuitive and clunky. I normally like your work FGD, but on this I disagree with you.

I will say reading 4 pages of this has been harder than trying to read the Silmarillion as a 10 year old.

Quite the discussion. I'm agreeing with Fickle. Even if you have an effect that reduces your maneuver's difficulty (say from red to white) during the activation phase, when you check your revealed dial during the engagement phase you are still seeing a red revealed on the dial.

I find it hard to believe that this didn't get brought up in play testing. That's still a thing, right? I'll agree to wait for an FAQ ruling on it.

I don't think it will matter too much, we all know that extra die is going to roll blank anyways.

R4 isn't an effect that reduces difficulty during the activation phase though.

It's an effect that reduces difficulty all the time.

On 7/11/2019 at 5:58 AM, librarian101 said:

since R4 just says it reduces the difficulty, not changes the dial? Thanks

Those are literally the same things. The color of a maneuver on the dial is called its difficulty.

R4 does not have a specified timing, therefore it is always active and constantly reducing all of the basic speed 1-2 maneuvers on a ship's dial.

If it only applied during the execute maneuver step, it would just say that on the card. Like:

2 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

The color of a maneuver on the dial is called its difficulty.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.