6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Another issue it raises: Why does Resistance Leia specify a timing window at all? Under your interpretation it would be 100% unnecessary because everything that could change difficulty would only occur within her specified timing window anyway. It would be like if Fifth Brother said "During the Modify Attack Dice step" or something crazy like that.

not an issue at all

there are four BIG reasons

1.) It's optional

2.) you have to make the decision BEFORE the ship moves (because Check Difficulty Step occurs only after the ship moves)

3.) it requires spending a resource

4.) It's not limited to your ship

btw, if "reducing the difficulty of the maneuver" changes the printed dial then there's no synergy between Leia and Cova

30 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

literally all FFG would have to do to make their intention clear is to take the line about reducing/increasing difficulty and bump it up before they talk about the Check Difficulty Step

It's already clear. The cards that specify a timing only apply during that timing. The others apply always.

Just because a ship only checks the difficulty of a maneuver at one point in time doesn't mean effects that alter the difficulty stop applying the rest of the time.

R4 has no timing so is always "on" the moment it is equipped in squad building. Cova with R4 does not have red hard 1's to trigger her ability.

As is Nien crew… For what its worth (Same exact lack of timing, so always on).

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

btw, if "reducing the difficulty of the maneuver" changes the printed dial then there's no synergy between Leia and Cova

Leia has an implicit timing window. If she didn't, she would apply for literally the rest of the game.

4 minutes ago, svelok said:

Leia has an implicit timing window. If she didn't, she would apply for literally the rest of the game.

and r4 doesn't because?

why doesn't it have an implicit timing window that's already been specified in the Rules Reference?

We can't just assume something's implicit when we have a very explicit definition of when these effects occur in the rules reference (during the Check Difficulty Step)

both Leia and R4 have the same timing window. They occur during Check Difficulty, they do not actually change (or paint over) your dial.

That's RAW

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

and r4 doesn't because?

why doesn't it have an implicit timing window that's already been specified in the Rules Reference?

We can't just assume something's implicit when we have a very explicit definition of when these effects occur in the rules reference (during the Check Difficulty Step)

If you do not assume Leia has an implicit timing window, then she can turn every move on a ships dial blue given enough turns.

R4 neither has this problem, nor has a timing trigger in the first place, as Leia does.

4 minutes ago, svelok said:

If you do not assume Leia has an implicit timing window, then she can turn every move on a ships dial blue given enough turns.

I don't have to assume a thing, because there's an explicit timing window in Check Difficulty Step

Since Leia only changes the difficulty of the maneuver, not the dial itself, she only works once per round (per trigger).

So, Poe reveals a red t-roll and Leia reduces the difficulty. The next round, Poe is still reveals the same red t-roll.

Leia didn't paint the dial white. When Poe reveals his dial, Leia can trigger to have him reduce the difficulty of the maneuver during the Check Difficulty Step.

Okay, @ficklegreendice , I'll play the devil's advocate.

If FFG wanted to make something that did work with Hera and Tiin and didn't work with Cova Nell, how would they do it?

You're currently saying it's absolutely impossible and that nothing can change the difficulty of a maneuver except at the very moment that it is being executed: Not upon reveal, nor as it sits afterward.

I think that's silly. R4, Nien, etc. apply whenever you check the difficulty of a maneuver. You're basically saying you can only "check the difficulty" of a maneuver while you're executing it, while effects like Hera and Cova Nell are curiously just doing some kind of forensic investigation of the precise hue of the ink in a specific location on a piece of cardboard. That's silliness. FFG has a terminology for the "color" of a maneuver. It's called Difficulty. And when you're "looking to see" what something is, that's called a Check. It's a Difficulty Check. What else would it be? R4 doesn't specify a timing window. It applies to all Difficulty Checks. Why shouldn't it?

Here's your argument:

1) The Rules Reference guide shows how to treat a difficulty check

2) It ONLY shows that under the "Check Difficulty" step of performing a maneuver.

3) Ergo, you can only "Check Difficulty" while performing a maneuver.

This is it, right?

But then, what aspect of the revealed maneuver is Cova Nell checking, if not difficulty?

It seems far easier for me to believe that they simply listed it under that step because that is its most common occurrence than to believe that FFG meant that nothing can change the difficulty of a maneuver outside of its execution and that Cova Nell is somehow only concerned with the precise hue of the ink on her cardboard.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

T his is how it SHOULD have been written if they wanted it to change the printed dial

Honestly, I can't really disagree with you on this. I'm pretty sure this is exactly what they meant to do, but they screwed it up. The intent is still abundantly clear.

I'm on the printed dial bandwagon here.

Quote

Cova Nell

While you defend or perform a primary attack, if your revealed maneuver is red, roll 1 additional die.

The dial is revealed. the maneuver is red. roll 1 additional die.

Quote

Pattern Analyzer

While you fully execute a red maneuver, before the Check Difficulty step, you may perform 1 action.

the fully executed maneuver is a red difficulty maneuver. perform action as it you have fulfilled the requirements.

Quote

R4 Astromech

Decrease the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers

RE: Cova: The revealed maneuver colour is red. Cova's ability triggers. but no longer gets stressed because she is not executing a red maneuver.

RE: Pattern Analyzer: The difficulty has been reduced to white, pattern does not trigger.

NOW because of this change of ruling that was released with the latest rules reference:

Quote

Hera Syndulla

After you reveal a red or blue maneuver, you may set your dial to another maneuver of the same difficulty.

Nien Nunb

Decrease the difficulty of your bank maneuvers

Hera's maneuver is revealed as a white. Nien Nunb no longer will proc allowing her to change direction.

So we do need clarification. Because the two situations are incredibly similar. I honestly haven't checked in the RR/FAQ regarding the Hera/Nien combo, but from my understanding it is universally understood that it allowed Hera to do whatever she wanted. But with the change in the RR in regards to revealed dials I do think it ends up changing the Hera/Nien interaction to being invalid.

how the rule is being interpreted here is that revealed maneuvers and performed maneuvers are independent of each other.

2 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

th  e fully executed maneuver is a red difficulty maneuver. perform action as it you have fulfilled the requirements.

Correct under this line of thought.

2 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

RE: Pattern Analyzer: The difficulty has been reduced to white, pattern does not trigger  .

But wait! You haven't "Checked the difficulty" yet, so it's still red! You get two actions!

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But wait! You haven't "Checked the difficulty" yet, so it's still red! You get two actions!

the timing window thing... I see I see... well thats dumb AF. because I do agree with that statement RAW.

is this how this expansion breaks the game? with rule contradictions?

1 minute ago, Wiredin said:

the timing window thing... I see I see... well thats dumb AF. because I do agree with that statement RAW.

One more reason where I say this clearly isn't their intent and that specific instance of RAW is about as silly as saying Elusive can recharge your Proton Torpedoes.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

One more reason where I say this clearly isn't their intent and that specific instance of RAW is about as silly as saying Elusive can recharge your Proton Torpedoes.

RAW I think it's a heavily overlooked rules interaction that did not have intended effects. RAW I don't think this is how the combo was supposed to work at all.

reverse argument for the Cova/R4 does not combo

R4 and Nien are a constant effect that permanently alter the ship they are on - similar to shield uograde and hull upgrade - there's no clauses that state when it wouldn't be in effect so it's always in effect therefore it changes the colour (aka difficulty) of the dial

Shield/hull/stealth/Delta-B/angled etc all have specific graphics showing how they alter a ship's statline

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Shield/hull/stealth/Delta-B/angled etc all have specific graphics showing how they alter a ship's statline

Are you implying there's an existing visual nomenclature for permanently altering a ship's dial? Do please enlighten me.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Shield/hull/stealth/Delta-B/angled etc all have specific graphics showing how they alter a ship's statline

ah, but R4 states difficulty is reduced. rules reference states there are 3 components. speed, difficulty and bearing. R4 says the difficulty is reduced. for example changing red to white. the upgrade is treated as a constant change the same as stat line change cards.

I see both sides of this to be honest. both are valid arguments. right now to me... both are right and both are wrong. until FFG confirms I suggest asking your judge before you bring the combo.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Are you implying there's an existing visual nomenclature for permanently altering a ship's dial? Do please enlighten me.

There'd have to be an existing precedent to alter a ship's dial at all

Given RAW, there isn't other than physically selecting a different manuever

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

There'd have to be an existing precedent to alter a ship's dial at all

Except that literally until this exact interaction came up , everyone was just acting like R4, Nien, and L3 just straight-up changed your dial. This was never an issue before for some reason.

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Except that literally until this exact interaction came up , everyone was just acting like R4, Nien, and L3 just straight-up changed your dial. This was never an issue before for some reason.

Because that's how it worked in first Ed and no one really cared

If they were come kind of power combo, I'm sure someone would've brought it up a while ago.

Now that Wave 4 brought up all this "revealed manuever" junk, and the confusion along with it, we actually care to look

Same reason I had to explain to folks (and myself) that "overlapping" and "moving through" are different things (for landing struts and probe droids)

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Except that literally until this exact interaction came up , everyone was just acting like R4, Nien, and L3 just straight-up changed your dial. This was never an issue before for some reason.

It wasn't because ffg stated the Nein/Hera argument works. This is essentially the same interaction. But the change in the rules reference for this wave has opened the debate.

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Because that's how it worked in first Ed and no one really cared

If they were come kind of power combo, I'm sure someone would've brought it up a while ago.

Now that Wave 4 brought up all this "revealed manuever" junk, and the confusion along with it, we actually care to look

Same reason I had to explain to folks that "overlapping" and "moving through" are different things (for landing struts and probe droids)

That's fair. I guess we'll just have to wait for the FAQ.

Also I'm sorry that I've been pretty strongly worded and a bit brash. I let myself get too worked up over stuff like this and I'm not sure why. Please know there are no hard feelings, I really do get where you're coming from, and I don't think you're ignorant or shortsighted at all. I simply disagree. I hope we can continue to have civil discussions (hopefully more so, sorry) in the future.

So what's the verdict? Yay or nay with R4 interacting with Corva?

No worries, this **** turns me into a pendantic ******* anyway so you can't really be at fault for getting annoyed

I will say, though, that all this talk does make me hope thar ffg clarifies that R4: does change the dial because that is simply a lot more intuitive Ito gameplay

I don't want to seem like I'm advocating for some abuse of rules , I'm just reading the raw.