That frequently happens in these disucssions.

Because FFG didn't hire a good technical writer.

i don't think classifying the effect as a game effect is a good solution, simply because i don't believe it is a game effect.

the clause of "to a maximum of 4" on 7th fleet gunner can be seen as part of the effect, meaning that if the effect is used while you determine how many attack dice are to be rolled, the attacker will not be able to roll more than 4 dice even with the help of other effects, since the limitation persists throughout the timing window.

@meffo as there is literally no feasible way to rule where does the boundary between the two kinds of effects go, I am willing to accept what seems to be the more common understanding among the player base and reinforce that view - if only for sake of consistency. This is how I will judge in my local community, anyways.

I do agree with you that the "maximum of 4" clause is not a limitation on the ship itself, but only on the effect of 7th fleet gunner. However, should we - for now - agree that game effects are these that the game decides / forces to resolve and player's effects are these that player decides to resolve, the difference will be irrelevant for there is no other non-mandatory effect we could resolve after the gunner to add a die. Or none that I'm aware of.

I think 7th is an ongoing affect because it says “while another friendly ship performs an attack”

so while you can order them however you want, 7th fleets “while” continues through the whole attack and therefore the max cap of 4 also applies.

9 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

As  noted     somewhere before in the thread, the Gunner's       ability puts no restrictive      ("cannot") clause on the ship but merely  introduces a condition to it's own benefit - which mean the condition should only be appl  icable  to resolution of this single  ef    f   e    ct    .    

The effect is, "the attacker rolls 1 additional die to a maximum of four." This effect isn't fully resolved until you've rolled your dice, which again, are all rolled at the same time.

If it read, "if the attacker is rolling 3 or fewer dice, it may roll one additional die," then the order you resolve abilities would matter. But the maximum of four is part of the ability itself, which means that restriction hangs until dice have been rolled.

3 hours ago, meffo said:

i don't think classifying the effect as a game effect is a good solut  ion, simply because i don't believe it is a game effect. 

For me this discussion is no longer about Ric and 7th Fleet Gunner. We're pretty much in consensus that you can't get a fifth die in the originally laid out situation. For me the discussion is if text on a card should in some cases be considered a "game effect."

What this discussion of 7th Fleet Gunner in relation to Ric Olie brings up is the question of when something on a pilot card, upgrade card, or damage card becomes a "game effect" the same as adding a die at range one instead of a "player ability."

"Game effects" per the rules reference must be handled before a "player ability."

In my argument 7th Fleet Gunner would not be as you note a "game effect" it would be a "player ability." 7th Fleet Gunner uses the word "may." While Ric's text would be a "game effect." It does not use the word "may." If the condition is met, it must be done the same way as adding a die at range one must be done. We have to resolve a game effect first and this can inform us whether we can use an ability. Yes there are other hints in 7th Fleet Gunner that help us know whether we can use that particular ability. But we have no guidance for other future interactions.

The distinction between a "game effect" and a "player ability" being use of the word "may." A "may do" is a player ability. A "must do" is a game effect.

The rulebooks do not distinguish when or if a "player ability" which are text on pilot and upgrade and damage cards (just "abilities" in the rules reference) turns into or becomes or perhaps is a "game effect."

Many of us in this thread think there is value in having such a distinction as game effects are resolved before abilities.

7 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

abilities Vs game effect

“ABILITIES
Some of the text on condition, damage, ship, and upgrade cards describe abilities. These abilities consist of a timing and an effect.” Page 2

“ If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player’s
ability, the game effect is resolved first.” page 3

Im pretty sure game effects are not abilities. Abilities are anything in text on cards.

1 minute ago, Sir13scott said:

“ABILITIES
Some of the text on condition, damage, ship, and upgrade cards describe abilities. These abilities consist of a timing and an effect.” Page 2

“ If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player’s
ability, the game effect is resolved first.” page 3

Im pretty sure game effects are not abilities. Abilities are anything in text on cards.

Yes. "These abilities consist of a timing and an effect." Does that "effect" ever become a "game effect" (in that it is mandatory like a range bonus) that must be resolved first?

I brought up Kanan earlier in the thread. His ability and Ric's ability are very different. They are both abilities but one is a choice and one is not. If you don't have a choice can you really put the ability anywhere in the cue? 🤷‍♂️

Setting aside the other ways we can show this situation to not work we are still left with the idea that what order we put things in the cue might allow us to end around the conditions and triggers on a card. Some of these might not to be met with as universal a consensus on what happens as we have here.

The other benefit is that making this distinction or considering this might create "design space." There might be abilities or effects we're not getting because they'd cause confusion in attempting to resolve them or word them. The designers might think what they've put out is clear but that this section of the forum exists suggests that isn't always so. The next 7th Fleet Gunner might not be as carefully worded and then it is broken this, nerf that, dogs and cats living together... MASS HYSTERIA!

7th Fleet Gunner doesn't let you get a fifth die to roll. I agree with everyone who is saying that. I am saying this discussion suggests that we might have future issues without some additional guidance on putting things in the ability cue. 🍻 🍕

this is a healthy discussion. anyone care to start up a thread dealing with the terms "player ability" and "game effect"?

i have the terms pretty well nailed down by now i think, even though there is no clear definition of them by FFG. basically, i agree with @Sir13scott - how ever, it's important to note that game effects often come about due to player effects and they may even overlap in some cases.

to make it even more confusing, game effect is a much broader term, that includes player effects as well as all the things you might expect, such as a ship being removed after it is destroyed at a specific timing depending on when during the round it is destroyed, effects from damage cards, condition cards, etcetera.

really, it's the player abilities that are special, not game effects, as game effects seem to include pretty much everything that happens in a game.

it's also worth noting that FFG seems to call it "player's abilities", which really hurts my eyes.

oh, yeah, sorry @Frimmel - and thank you. it's not either player ability or game effect, it's rather which game effects are also player abilities.

English is not my native language so bear with me and my grammatical-esque question. Cannot that [---] If you do, the attacker rolls 1 additional die, to a maximum of 4. [---] be interpreted also as that the 7th Fleet Gunner limits the attacker's additional dice to 4? (Again, this is a sincere question, I do not believe that would be the intent nor have played that way.)

After reading everything, i believe that:

Both ric's and gunner are abilities, and go un The queue after The R1 bonus, so

+1(R1)

Then you chose which one goes in The queue first:

+1(Ric) or [+1 max4 dice in The attack](gunner)

And I also think you cannot separate the dice cap from gunner's bonus.

2+1+1max4+1 = 5max4 => 4

This skill makes sense un case some other ability reduces your attack dice, e.g. weapon failure crit.

I also agree that this needs clarification, or should have been worded" +1 die. That ship Cannot roll more than 4 dice..."