[EDIT]

Since I had a lot of fun making the original patch to create what I felt was a more balanced version of the Lost Legends hybrid classes, I decided to look at all the hero classes in Descent and give them a design pass. I'd like to inject some new life into my game sessions and see some more variety in skills and classes chosen. Perhaps you will you find some of these ideas interesting and worth considering in your games!

I had a few goals with this:

1) I looked at any skill card that I have almost never seen taken in the 6 years I've played Descent 2nd edition, and asked myself, "What would need to change for me to consider taking this?". Quite a lot of skills got improved as a result, especially in classes that are comparatively weak (e.g. Geomancer, Spiritspeaker, Berserker)

2) I looked at any classes which had received errata rulings and added them directly to the cards (e.g. Plague Cloud). I also updated the wording of certain cards to be more consistent or add clarity. (e.g. Ghost Armor)

3) A handful of cards got toned down due to being too strong compared to other cards within the class and within the game in general (e.g. Sleight of Hand, Advance, Unity). Also many cards which had no limits on tokens or stat buffs, or had no range limits now have limits applied to prevent abuse. In normal play conditions these limits are rarely reached, so their impact should be minor.

4) Some cards were completely remade (e.g. most of the Crusader class) due to the original skills being really imbalanced and/or boring.

5) A lot of cards that operated 'before dice are rolled' got promoted to 'after dice are rolled'. These skills just felt really bad to take compared to their reliable counterparts, so they just got ignored. Thankfully cards like Bestial Rage set a precedent for things like post-roll dice being added to an attack to the game. I think these cards are far more attractive now and those skills feel more impactful.

6) Many 3xp skills got buffed so that some hybrids don't totally outclass the pure versions of the classes. (e.g. 3xp Apothecary skills were terrible, so Apothecary was always hybridized to Watchman).

7) Many skills got their attribute test removed. This makes certain skills that were unsuitable for many hybrids to take due to attribute distribution more viable, unlocking more builds. Most of these skills were pretty bad when they could fail (e.g. Cripple, Caltrops)

Some cards had changes that were quite subtle. Can you catch them?

(Note: All playtesting I've done with these has been using Imperial Assault line of sight rules. Original Descent line of sight rules should still work okay though)

I brushed up on my Photoshop skills and used the invaluable templates at BoardGameGeek to create professional versions of all these cards!

I also included a new version of what I consider the weakest and most boring Condition in the game, Cursed . This condition was almost never applied by the Overlord because so many classes can outright ignore it. The new version is nastier and can't be ignored. Maybe Goblin Witchers get played now?

Here is a link to the new cards:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/26v7eo5m6y5qhm3/CharmyBalancePatch.pdf?dl=0

Feedback on these new versions of the cards is welcome, as are additional pairs of eyes to catch any typos.

Below is the link to the source Google doc, which includes hero rebalance, monster rebalance, and some proposed game rule modifications.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ivMZ4ZGe2XgcG4BpZRWMBgKjC4j78HPfGZXKSN8U8s/edit?usp=sharing

If you'd like a link to the MakePlayingCards project to print your own professional-looking copy of the cards that are suitable for play, just send me a DM and I'll give you the link.

Thanks for that.
I am currently playing Leoric as an Elementalist in a Road to Peril PBF on legendary difficulty level. He is really strong for now (3. quest) but I would like to wait for the campaign to be completed before I judge the power level. What really concerns me are the timing issues on some cards. Some cards simply do not work within the context of the rule set. Really disappointing as this should have been addressed in proofreading.
I added corresponding comments to your document.

Many cards needs to be rewriten so the text would fit the game's logic, for sure.

If I think some would be changed, in "classic" play, your changes are a pain ! Let me explain.


Soul Reaper

Essence harves t - I don't think it should cost fatigue. L imiting the soul harvest to 5 space is really a pain because you won't kill so many monsters, but I do like the idea you could charge it yourself, because you can quickly be out of Essence, and basically useless.

Stream of life - Basically, this card could be fused wih Essence harvest.

Spirit link - Fine.

Unholy bond - Each time a monster within 3 spaces of you performs an attack, you may spend 1 essence to force it to reroll 1 attack or power die.
I don't see the logic to remove the attack die, since having those tokens are really hard, they can be pretty strong

Blight extraction - Fine.

Cursed soul - Fine

Galvanize - You shouldn't limit this to the round. The apothecary has a skill somewhat in the same logic (to add 1 grey defense die after you use an elixir) and it is not limited to the round. Same here. Would be useless this way. Never forget that none all of us are playing the app, and the game is much different this way, and monster may not attack, the Overlord can do other stuff, etc ...

Stream of life - Not so sure for this point.

Elementalist

Tide - Basically rewrite text ? Ok.

Grasp - This is no good idea. Action for stun could looks good, but since all of his card are about attacking, this should be "exhaust after an attack"

Gust - Changed the "friendly" by "hero" ? Fine. Even if I think the game "hero" words has multiple problems ...

Sun and sea - Sorry, but no, should still offer the ability to reroll the attack die. Since almost all of the Elementalist cards are about killing monsters (runecache), this is the logic behind. No, should stay the way it is.

Primal harmony - You're a funny guy, aren't you ? No way you can restore all of these. Forget it, bad idea.

Storm's fury - Same logic here, you should not touch this one.

Volcanic might - Same here, why giving move? Volcanic was about dealing damage, so yes, it is strong, but the Overlord can avoid attack the hero, or do many other things. So leave it that way

Nature's embrace - Maybe changing it to "minion" can be a good idea. Need more play to be sure.

Nature's fury - Not sure to understand the logic of lost movement points. In the game, no other rule or event force you to spend movement point immediately if gained during your turn.

Crusader

Zealous aura - This problem is the same. If it can be strong, maybe too much in the app, it is far from being ultimate in classic play, and killing monster is not so often. So, no, shouldn't be modifiied, or totally rewrite. In fact, I would prefer this one : "( 1 fatigue) - Exhaust this card when a hero within 3 spaces of you suffers any amount of heart from an attack. Reduce that amount by 2 (or 3 maybe?) and rename it to "Divine shield"

Righteous - Same here. And it's really strong this way, you don't imagine the advantage it has to recovers 1 fatigue from a monster's death, without range requierement. Sorry, but no again.

Divine light - Hey, man, you are nerfing all here ... Maybe removing the tokens at the end of an Encounter is an idea, but indeed, it shouldn't cost 2 fatigue, it shouldn't cost any at all from the begining so the hero could target himself. Here is what I would have done " (0 fatigue) - The first time a quest a hero would be defeated, if that hero's hero token is not on this card, put that hero's hero token on this card and immediately roll 3 red power dice. That hero recovers 1 heart of each heart on the roll, 1 fatigue for each surge on the roll and discard all of his conditions. If that hero can still perform his 2 actions as normal this turn" (if killed by poison for example)

Heretic

Arcane healing - To avoid the stupid combo with Quick recovery ?

Avenger

Holy champion - Limiting it to 8 since it is all discarded if defeated is pointless. And discarding it from an encounter to another is too much of a nerf, sorry, but no. The card should stay as it is, but not that way. In fact, I do not like this class, but that's another point.

Vengefull smite - Same, and even if it is strong, the Overlord can focus on him, and all of his cards are useless. It is a risk to discard tokens before the attack, sometimes, it would be useless, some times, strong, you can be sure before. No good solution again.

Death from above - Since thoses are hybrid class, limiting it to "melee" would limit the logic of "hybridizing" it, so, sorry, no again.

Raider

Surprise assault - No, again. To no have the line of sight at the start of your turn is not so easy to create, and the Overlord can still play around this. This is strong, indeed, but exhausting it has no point. In the end game, this would maybe add a real powerfull advantage, but still, having many surge if oftently useless

Divide the spoils - No, again. Drawing a search card happens 8 times at most during an encounter, so for 2 xp, recovering 8 fatigue for 8 actions is not so strong, maybe a bit weak.

Close the gap - I'm with you one this one. But I would have rewrite totally this card, because if has the bad point about "the more you're strong, the stronger you are". At the end, if you are bathing into gold, this is stupidly strong, otherwise, it is useless. This card is really desapoiting, deceiving, and created with lack of imagination

Ravager

Momentum - Yes, I think it needs to be limited, But maybe up to your speed ?

Charging assault - Fine to me

Vicious throw - Sorry, no again. Unequipping the weapon is a going point, I see your point in adding range more that fixing it to the move, but maybe it should be surge + 2 range or adding range equal to your might ?

Trickster

Private collection - Same from divide the spoils, so no.

Now you see me - Yes, indeed, yes, yes and yes !

Arcane fusion - You are killing the point of this card. No.

Lorekeeper

Ancient remedy - Yes, the "even while this card is exhausted" is a logic miss to me. But no, 3 spaces is good. It is already much 2 fatigue for just a condition.

Carefull balance - Since you can use it to just heal yourself, you could use it and heal, for free, twice a round, maybe more ? Sorry, but no again.

All-knowing - Same for the "even if this card is exhausted" . I would have say "Once per round during your turn, you may use this card ..." Please ? Pose maybe ?

Truthseer

True sight - I'm afraid this card would be a bit too strong

Translocation - Just limiting it to 5 spaces seems enough for me

Premonition - Yes, would be far better, indeed.

1 hour ago, rugal said:

If I think some would be changed, in "classic" play, your changes are a pain ! Let me explain.

I like the thoughts that Charmy put into his suggested changes. As he clarified, the document he linked is work-in-progress. Everyone's input on this is very welcome. No need to be rude. Even if you do not agree with Charmy's ideas. Ideally, the community will come up with:

A) An errata'ed version that just corrects any inconsistencies with the rules. FAQs from FFG would be fantastic here.
B) A modified version that takes care of cards with problematic power levels in standard play. I have not play-tested the new classes enough to identify problems. Some cards seem to be natural candidates for nerfs, though.

I'm no rude. Sorry if It looked like that way.

And if balancing Lost Legends, maybe the whole game needs a full patch

I am actually not sure here. Although there are components that are stronger than others my feeling is that in general the game is sufficiently well balanced. Even with Mok the bard and Logan the treasure hunter. The only exception that comes to mind are the overlord's servants. They seem a bit too strong overall and should only be considered if the overlord is facing a very strong hero team played by experienced players.

For Lost Legends I cannot say anything as I haven't played it enough.

I am. Many Overlords cards are ridiculously weak : Word of pain on top, Word of despair after, Trading pains, Wicked laugher, for example.

Do I have to talk about Bol'Goreth's plot deck ?

Yes, there are differences in the power level of OL cards, heroes, classes, plot decks etc. So what?
As long as no component is truly game-breaking I see this as a chance for customization: Estimate the experience and power level of your opponents and choose cards accordingly.
In a cut-throat competitive environment you can use e.g. a point system to allow for roughly equal power levels.

And so some cards, hero, abilites, are played over some others, because of their power level difference, and some never

If your players enjoy Astarra, Mok, Logan, One Fist and double servant OL decks that much. More power to you. It got stale for me very soon.

I suggest to use a customized system that ranks the heroes, classes, plot decks and servants and assigns points to each. Then agree on a certain number of points for the OL and the heroes and you should be fine. Much easier than trying to modify a lot of components for balancing reasons. Just my 2 cents.

The trouble is not really here since we use many other heroes for fun.

But the Overlord will never play some cards or plot deck because the effect of those cards do not worth the price. Word of pain is never a good card to have, never.

It actually has its niche: Quests where the goal is to kill many figures treated as heroes. There also might be some decent combos with plot cards other OL cards or quest mechanics that I have not figured out yet.

there is a difference between optimising game effects and effect that are useless alone

Yes. But there is also a difference between just trying to maximize value for all of your overlord cards to brutalize the other players, and to find a happy medium of balance where all can have a good time.

I like the fact that there are what SOME would call sub-optimal cards available. As the Overlord, I take into consideration the strengths and experience of the players I will be competing against, and make appropriate decisions as to the cards I take to make up my decks. After all, while I am as competitive (or more) than most, I still want the over all experience for everyone to be enjoyable and fun. I often take cards you suggest should never be taken, because I am playing against beginners, and it is the opportunity to use those less powerful cards to teach them various mechanics of the game, timing issues, etc. without overwhelming. As they learn to adapt to certain cards, then, yes, I may not bring them again against that particular group.

I have no need to crush my opponents to the point where they will never play again. Who wins in that scenario? No one.

Better to build a crafty deck, that may be harder for me to use and be competitive with, but lends to a better overall play experience for all.

Now, having said all of the above, when I am playing against my A-Team opponents (you all know who you are), I bring everything including the kitchen sink, as even then, it is a tooth and nail battle. But then that group knows what is in store for them, and actually demand it.

You really need to know and understand your audience (your opponents) to ensure that everyone has a great time, and they keep coming back for more. In that scenario, everyone wins.

Fine. But I'm not playing with beginners anymore. And whatever, you learn by losing. Even if I'm fine with adapting level to players I'm not by having underpowered cards but more because I choose to overwhelm them or not.

I can’t add much that hasn’t been said (wonderful post by @any2cards ) but to root for the underdog OL card here, Word of Pain is theoretically useful against Conjurers.

I learned early on that Descent has an interesting meta game which is purely psychological. As Overlord, I don't play to win - I play for the heroes to win, or for the heroes to lose. This means my actions always are reflective of the psychological state of the hero players, laying on the pain when they can tolerate it, and backing off when they need a breather. Frankly, this approach means I lose as an Overlord slightly more often than I win, and I think that is best.

To the point of this thread, hero players often enjoy having relatively crappy cards, abilities, and monsters thrown at them, and hilarity ensues when less than ideal pairing are made. Like, for instance, when Dash is played on a master zombie, allowing it to grab a stealthy Tomble Burrowell. Overlords that play for the thrill of the game understand this, and that these cards have purpose.

Now, time to deploy Plague Release...

Thanks to everyone so far who has commented on the patch and given really valuable feedback! I love this community.

I've updated the patch to v1.1, tweaking quite a few abilities based on suggestions.

Thanks also to Sadgit for pointing out some of the rules problems with the Elementalist. I'd be curious to hear from if you think the changes fully address the timing problems with it.

The timing problems of the Elementalist are resolved.

I’m curious after reading through some of your comments if this has just become a passion project (meaning that some of the cards were broke and since you started fixing you might as well do them all) or if you truly believe some of these cards are really that bad?

Because as I said in the other thread, I can agree with some things like All-Knowing or even I’ll concede on the Elementalist because I don’t play as OL but take Surprise Assault for example. You said,” This card was WAY too strong compared with similar abilities in other classes (e.g. Bow Mastery, Weapon Mastery), as the condition is not very hard to meet and this only costs 1xp to acquire.

Now this effect is only usable once per turn. It also has a chance to fail if the attack misses to compensate for being cheaper in xp than other surge-generating options.”

I disagree. 1. After a round or two in most encounters it isn’t that easy to be out of LOS because the 1-1 corner barely blocks anything. Or you have to spend an action to move into position so you only have 1 attack. 2. The rule as written can waste the surge with a miss. So you don’t gain or lose from that. 3. You are correct about the other mastery cards, but there are other similar skills which don’t require exhausting the card like Concoction. That can be used twice and doesn’t have the limitation of LoS and gains Pierce 1.

So do you suggest that card is WAY too powerful?

I’m not trying to be a ****. Im genuinely curious.

You have right to disagree reasoning like this make this community better.

Me neither like the direct comparison between two cards from different classes - because you always have to keep in mind that you have to see the whole picture. Otherwise why we would have different classes? Especially if we bring down all the different skills to exactly the same. Same cards with different name and color but doing the same thing. One another thing to keep in mind is that when you buy something even for 1XP you lost that XP to buy something else. This is even stronger part of the business with hybrid classes.

3 hours ago, ren6175 said:

I’m curious after reading through some of your comments if this has just become a passion project (meaning that some of the cards were broke and since you started fixing you might as well do them all) or if you truly believe some of these cards are really that bad?

Because as I said in the other thread, I can agree with some things like All-Knowing or even I’ll concede on the Elementalist because I don’t play as OL but take Surprise Assault for example. You said,” This card was WAY too strong compared with similar abilities in other classes (e.g. Bow Mastery, Weapon Mastery), as the condition is not very hard to meet and this only costs 1xp to acquire.

Now this effect is only usable once per turn. It also has a chance to fail if the attack misses to compensate for being cheaper in xp than other surge-generating options.”

I disagree. 1. After a round or two in most encounters it isn’t that easy to be out of LOS because the 1-1 corner barely blocks anything. Or you have to spend an action to move into position so you only have 1 attack. 2. The rule as written can waste the surge with a miss. So you don’t gain or lose from that. 3. You are correct about the other mastery cards, but there are other similar skills which don’t require exhausting the card like Concoction. That can be used twice and doesn’t have the limitation of LoS and gains Pierce 1.

So do you suggest that card is WAY too powerful?

I’m not trying to be a ****. Im genuinely curious.

Hey, these are good questions, so don't worry about it. I don't think you're being a... uh... **** (it got censored)

There are about a handful of Lost Legends cards that I think are truly problematic, and those ones have been discussed by people other than me in threads both here, on BGG and on the reddit. I am pretty confident that with the work of great community members like Sadgit that a cleaned up version of the most broken and unclear cards will emerge that can then be integrated into the CRRG/Wikis.

My intention with the balance patch wasn't to make something like the CRRG, where it is a kind of community-sanctioned version of Descent that is about as official as it can be, pieced together from FFG's responses and community consensus.

I encourage people who like some parts of the document to pick and choose the parts they'd like to include in their own games and to ignore the ones they don't like.

As I mentioned in the document, I am thinking of creating a general balance rework of most of Descent and this is part of it. So really, this is a 'variant' as much as it is a patch.

This is partially because I want to reinvigorate the game for myself - I am getting tired of seeing the exact same strategies dominate and a large number of classes, skills, monsters, heroes, etc. stagnate unused in my games. I also want the game to have more compelling choices - where every choice has both pros and cons compared to something else. Some of the newer content, such as the Watchman class and Servants, are just so much stronger than alternative options that not taking them is outright conceding power to your opponent.

Including the bulk of Lost Legends 'as is' would exacerbate this problem because of how many options are strictly better than what has come before.

Regarding your example of my proposed changes to Surprise Assault :

The condition for this card is the same as the one I've played around for many years playing as and against the Thief with Sneaky . In my experience (especially since I play with Imperial Assault line of sight rules), this condition is very easy to meet with a little team work and can trigger in most rounds by activating in a specific order and using other heroes to block line of sight for the Thief.

But the ease of activation is just part of the problem. It is important to compare this card to other mastery cards. For one, the mastery cards have a 2xp cost. This has a 1xp cost. Not only that, but there is the fact that the card does not need to be exhausted to used. This is a major difference, because it means that in many turns in the late game this can turn into 3 or more additional surges over the course of a round- for example using Thief's Bushwhack, Treasure Hunter's Dungeoneer, Bounty Hunter's Rapid Fire, Heroic Feats, etc. Having a lesser xp cost while providing several times more value than alternatives is not good! There is a reason the original "Nanok of the Blade", which also granted an additional surge on every single attack performed, was nerfed when he was reprinted in Stewards of the Secret. This effect is too powerful.

Even if you make the argument that it is easier to meet the requirement of, say, "using a bow" (Bow Mastery) than "targeting a monster you didn't see at the start of turn" (Surprise Assault), this is already more than made up for by the XP cost difference.

If you are playing with the traditional line of sight rules, than I'd say requiring the card to exhaust is enough of a change to make it balanced enough compared to other options.

But since I play with IA LoS rules, I also added 'before the dice are rolled', so that its possible the player will exhaust Surprise Assault and then miss, which means they don't get the bonus surge for the round. In the case of the mastery cards, if you miss you can simply not exhaust the card and use it on your next attack which makes the 2xp cost more justified for the added flexibility.

Finally, Concoction is not a comparable card, because even though this card does not exhaust on use and grants a surge, it has several important limitations which make it a different beast:

1) It requires a dedicated action to use, which means it can't be combined with other types of dedicated attack actions, or with bonus additional attacks, so it is limited to 2 per round, rather than 3+.
2) It has the (admittedly minor) restriction that you need to already have an elixir token on you.

but most importantly,

3) It requires 1 fatigue every time it wants to be used, while the mastery cards and Surprise Assault are free.

You're amending a lot on the Essence economy of the Soul Reaper in the balance patch but I think it doesn't require that much modification. Playing a Soul Reaper now and I have to admit it's clunky in the first few missions you can't heal enough because you can easily "out of the ammo" most of the time. I even wanted to stop and restart the campaign because it was so annoying.

But then when other options are opening like Blight Extraction a new world opens and it start to work much better. Still you have to take care of your Essences - so for example you have to consider how much you wan't to heal with Spirit Link on a hero when he's about to KO. Yes, Spirit Link might be a bit stronger than other healers similar skills but it has it's price. And nerfing it to the same effect would mean that we have a different class with same card - then why we would play different classes if they have the same skills?

Adding an option to add an Essence with only exhausting a card seems a bit weird because it taking out the 'take care of yourself and your essences" aspect out of the picture completely. Immobilise might be an easy one to grab 3 Essences from nothing but that's not the only Condition you might meet with.

Also limiting the maximum Essence removes the chance to prepare yourself to a "final battle" - while loosing essences on KO means you really really need to take care of yourself - which requires some tactic - and a different style to play with. It's still feels unfair to loose all essences but that's the point of having some stake right?

I think Soul Reaper is quite unique - could work a lot better on some cases and can be frustrating in others but with wise planning and tactic it could be really interesting to play with. Which other healer could be more happier to have a Bloody Dagger to have a Bleeding just for fun, +4 Damage and collecting more essence?

10 hours ago, kbalazsa said:

But then when other options are opening like Blight Extraction a new world opens and it start to work much better. Still you have to take care of your Essences - so for example you have to consider how much you wan't to heal with Spirit Link on a hero when he's about to KO. Yes, Spirit Link might be a bit stronger than other healers similar skills but it has it's price. And nerfing it to the same effect would mean that we have a different class with same card - then why we would play different classes if they have the same skills?

Even with the change I suggested, it is still quite a bit stronger than similar skills due to only costing 1XP, as well as having an additional passive bonus effect.

There also needed to be some trade off with the adjustment I made to Soul Harvest allowing the Soul Reaper to passively gain essence.

10 hours ago, kbalazsa said:

Adding an option to add an Essence with only exhausting a card seems a bit weird because it taking out the 'take care of yourself and your essences" aspect out of the picture completely. Immobilise might be an easy one to grab 3 Essences from nothing but that's not the only Condition you might meet with.

Getting one essence per round passively doesn't take out the Soul Reaper's core mechanic. He may not be able to spare the fatigue every round to get it, and he will need a lot more than that to be effective. The passive gain really helps though when there are lulls in the action - which is far more common in the regular game than in Road to Legend. It sucks to be the only hero who is unable to assist their team when there aren't any monsters around to kill. This addresses that problem.

Immobilize isn't the only condition that is worth grabbing for essentially no ill-effect. Terrified is also a 'free' condition to take when you are out of sight of monsters. Taking Weakened when you were planning on resting anyway is a 'free' removal. And if you have a very high Might or Willpower stat, taking Poison or Disease is often just free essence as well. Condition transfer/removal shouldn't be the primary way the Soul Reaper gains essence - but it was designed this way.

As I mentioned in another thread, it sucks when your primary essence gain is from conditions which it is up to your opponent to apply (Blood Dagger withstanding). RtL monsters are dumb and will happily apply all the conditions you need to keep yourself powered up. That just isn't the case against an opponent with a brain - which was how Descent was originally balanced.

10 hours ago, kbalazsa said:

Also limiting the maximum Essence removes the chance to prepare yourself to a "final battle" - while loosing essences on KO means you really really need to take care of yourself - which requires some tactic - and a different style to play with. It's still feels unfair to loose all essences but that's the point of having some stake right?

This 'saving up for the final battle' mechanic sounds interesting at first, but not if you actually try it in a competitive environment. With sufficient motivation, it is very easy for the Overlord to prepare and take out a specific hero no matter how much the party wants to protect them. You'll notice how quests designed later in Descent's lifecycle mostly eliminated the finales where heroes were permanently dead after being knocked out - it was a mechanic that was too Overlord favored.

All it takes is a single Dark Charm to move the healer out into the open with monsters, followed by a couple of Frenzies, Critical Blow, etc. and the hero is dead. Yes, the Overlord expended many vital resources to do that, but against the Soul Reaper the benefits far outweigh the costs.

Against other healers, once their companions help them up they can get right back into the fight after chugging a stamina potion. With the Soul Reaper, when they're picked up they're useless to their team as a healer until they start building up their essence from scratch again. That makes this healer a huge liability in competitive Descent and to me makes it clear that the designer of the class played Road to Legend far more - where it is much easier to predict what your opponent is capable of and protect your healer from harm.