One thing I find with juke is it can be something of a defensive mod too. Often I'm shooting first and people so often spend the focus without thinking about the fact they need it to have any real chance to do damage.

Way back when Juke and Lone Wolf was 4pts I tried both, and I felt that Juke was better, Lone Wolf was so good defensively as you effectively have 4 green dice. I also found I was trash at getting it to trigger in a 3 ship list.

They definitely need some help offensively, I'm almost at the point that if I can't put FCS on I'm can't afford Rexler. Makes the 1v1 in the end even more absurdly in your favour.

I call this list imperial 5’s, because I have 0 sense of originality. I have only tested it on Fly Casual, my local group is all about Hyperspace at the moment.

New Squadron

(46) Maarek Stele [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 48

(81) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender]
(7) Juke
Points: 88

(57) "Whisper" [TIE/ph Phantom]
(7) Juke
Points: 64

Total points: 200

Add me to the "Keep it light" crowd. With most ships, you're taking the ship for the pilot. With the TIE Defender, you're taking the ship for the ship. Buy the ship. Don't worry about the fancy stuff; it's made to be an incredibly resilient and self-sufficient frame.

Deltas are great . I1 means you will never get blocked so you'll always get full throttle. I1 means you'll probably be ignored and will make it to the endgame where you'll be totally un-kill-able. Most importantly, I1 means you will always make the correct token choice. High-I pilots have a struggle: Do I spend this focus on attack, or do I need it for defense? I1 has that choice made for them – by the time they get to attack, if they still have their focus they're free to use it for all they're worth. There's no reason not to! This makes them surprisingly better both at defense and at offense!

A higher-initiative defender with Advanced Sensors and either Outmaneuver or Marksmanship and Autoblasters sounds like a fun time, but they get so expensive. And make no mistake: Juke is a great card and fully worth 7 points, but only with token denial, where it becomes an always-on crack shot. Otherwise it's a waste of points.

But two Deltas are so hard to kill and they leave room for a quite-decent ace alongside, such as:

Delta Squadron Pilot (69)
Fire-Control System (2)

Delta Squadron Pilot (69)
Fire-Control System (2)

Maarek Stele (46)
Marksmanship (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Afterburners (6)

Total: 197

My problem with Defenders is that Vader + FCS + Afterburners feel like a steal in comparison. 3 green dice backed by three force (or more realistically 2 force and a focus) at any speed at I6, doesn't feel bad compared to the 3 green dice with focus = evade at predictable 3+ speeds. That Vader build is 75 points while any named TIE/d is minimum 81 points. The Dark Lord always slots in better for any list I am making. Even if you want a beefcake to tank hits, Redline + Protorps + Adv. Sesnors is 75 points as well.

12 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

My problem with Defenders is that Vader + FCS + Afterburners feel like a steal in comparison. 3 green dice backed by three force (or more realistically 2 force and a focus) at any speed at I6, doesn't feel bad compared to the 3 green dice with focus = evade at predictable 3+ speeds. That Vader build is 75 points while any named TIE/d is minimum 81 points. The Dark Lord always slots in better for any list I am making. Even if you want a beefcake to tank hits, Redline + Protorps + Adv. Sesnors is 75 points as well.

Vader + FCS costs the same as a Delta Squadron. It's an interesting direct comparison.

I think the biggest issue for me is that Vader has no access to the evade action at all, whereas the Delta has a free evade token built into the chassis. Vader can k-turn and boost with Afterburners twice in a game, the Delta can K-turn, evade, and boost every single turn. Vader will initiative-kill everything, but the Delta isn't easily Initiative-killed (it basically can't be killed 1-on-1, and stands up well even to focused fire). On the other hand, Vader has TONS of aggro. Free rerolls, free focus conversion, free crits, and so on and so on. Basically it depends on what you want: Vader DESTROYS things, the Defender just doesn't die. Both feel somewhat unnatural in those regards, and both make a very potent endgame piece.

For me, a big breakpoint is that the I1 of the Defender lets it have fully-modified defensive rolls, and can still have focused attacks if it still has the token. High-I has to decide how to use Focus without knowing whether it will need the defensive boost. For that reason, Vader is susceptible to dying on a green-dice blankout, whereas the Delta still packs a punch when it rolls a hit and two focuses. And the Delta just won't die.

A similar price point seems fitting. I think a large reason Vader seems more appealing is simply that we're used to named pilots (and especially familiar, high-initiative pilots) being much better value than generics. But fortunately that isn't always the case anymore.

Defenders still have the same problem they've had since 1.0: the costs they have been burdened with in exchange for the white 4K are absurd (a dial that is otherwise incredibly bad, and a ridiculous points premium). And everyone knows that the one trick you have is that 4K, so they'll block it every time.

That said, Rex can pull his weight as a flanking ace alongside a mini-swarm. Howl + 3 TIE/LN + Rex can throw down with competitive lists and creates a lot of opportunities for opponents to make fatal mistakes (feint to your opponent that you're doing a 4K. Don't actually do a 4K, and instead swing-in the TIE/LN brick for R1 shots at the blocker).

I will never understand why the Empire's premium experimental starfighter didn't get its dial fixed. High points cost, sure, fine - that's fair. High points cost and also your good turns are all red and also your only blue turns are 1 banks? That is way too tremendous a burden.

The privilege of flying the empire's finest craft is it need a tremendous burden, which is why they only seat the best 😎

Anyway, as predictable as the 4k is, the x7 title of last Ed got me to appreciate just how ****** powerful it is. Like, great you've predicted the predictable...what're you gonna do about it?

You can't really joust an x7 without a numerical advantage, because of the white k + full throttle. If you're a self stressing arc dodger, you'll have a hard time fighting even a Delta because they can so trivially kturn behind you.

The white 4k is a mighty thing, especially with a free evade, regardless of how predictable it is. It's up to the Defender pilot to not fall into obvious blocks (and/or use Delta's)

Also, it's a premium experimental fighter. Makes sense that it won't handle as easily as a squint

2 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

And everyone knows that the one trick you have is that 4K, so they'll block it every time.

You literally can't block an I1 Defender. Just saying.

3 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

High points cost and also your good turns are all red and also your only blue turns are 1 banks?

Agreed. At least it's not the 2-banks like on so many ships, though the 3-bank would work with Full Throttle. The anti-synergy makes for some interesting choices, and the potential of Advanced Sensors also makes sense with its reds. Sure you're turning off your amazing action economy, but for a boost > 2K or barrel-roll > 1-turn? Rexler likes that.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You literally can't block an I1 Defender. Just saying.

Not technically true

It's just a matter of knowing where the 4k will land and having something in that spot before the beginning of next round

It is more difficult than just having a higher I overlap your ship, but it's super possible if your opponent just mindlessly flies at you!

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not technically true

It's just a matter of knowing where the 4k will land and having something in that spot before the beginning of next round

It is more difficult than just having a higher I overlap your ship, but it's super possible if your opponent just mindlessly flies at you!

Well, in that case the Defender will just overfly you or else do a 3- turn or bank. Or slow roll up and kill you, depending on which direction you're facing. But fair point.

I1 with a bid can also block it, but I haven't seen anyone bidding for first player yet .

9 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You literally can't block an I1 Defender. Just saying.

Agreed. At least it's not the 2-banks like on so many ships, though the 3-bank would work with Full Throttle. The anti-synergy makes for some interesting choices, and the potential of Advanced Sensors also makes sense with its reds. Sure you're turning off your amazing action economy, but for a boost > 2K or barrel-roll > 1-turn? Rexler likes that.

Sure; but if you're flying a Defender that isn't Rex or maybe Vessery, then I'm not terribly worried about your list.

Wow this blew up. Thanks for all the responses! I'll be working my way through it all - but a return to Delta's is interesting...

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You literally can't block an I1 Defender. Just saying.

3x Zealous Recruits running at 200pt says hi!

But yes. It's rare to see a Delta blocked

1 hour ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

Sure; but if you're flying a Defender that isn't Rex or maybe Vessery, then I'm not terribly worried about your list.

You say that...then suddenly you're boned in the late game

Seriously, even the Delta can 1v1 basically anything in the game. They're just that strong.

Defenders are weakest while they're in danger of being focused down by concetrated fire. 1-on-1, that full throttle + dial just keeps them alive forever

It's been a very interesting thread to read!

I used to run Delta's back when the ship was first released in 1.0. Had some great times. But I'd forgotten about them.

Seems like it might be time to get them back out.

I do find it odd that people moan about the dial. Perhaps I'm just used to it, but it's got everything you need. Decisions is what makes the game interesting, so it can't be perfect.

On 7/9/2019 at 6:29 AM, SDCC said:

Hey all,

2019, apart from a great month of Republic playing, has not been good for me and X-wing. I need a hook to have any chance of getting going again, and my old favourite the Defender has as good a chance as any of being it.

So, what's the deal with them now?

Friends have pointed out their recent deduction, to which I said "but Juke has gone up hasn't it?"

There must be other things we can do with them. So I'm all ears.

Perhaps the hook is out there I just haven't found it.

Ta muchly.

My current favorite defender build:

Brath Wrath

(81) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender]
(4) Heavy Laser Cannon
(2) Fire-Control System
(7) Juke
Points: 94

(53) Soontir Fel [TIE Interceptor]
(2) Predator
Points: 55

(47) Lieutenant Sai [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
(4) ST-321
Points: 51

Total points: 200

I have just started learning Defenders, and I am finding them interesting.
Their average attack seems to be offset pretty well by just flat out not dying quickly (although being out of position/misjudging a move feels pretty sad).
Played with two Onyx and a Coordinate platform and it turns out that being able to boost/barrel roll away from the obvious block to the 4K is pretty good. I4 seemed alright against Quad T70s, but I can see why it is regarded as the lesser of the two generics. At times when that Initiative does not matter, and you are not taking talents, it does feel a little wasteful.

I think I need to try the lower end Deltas though, seem more efficient and can get more toys on that Coordinate platform.
Also a non-Juke Rex (saving points for an I5 buddy or two).

I am finding difficulty with flying them properly at the moment. I think, as a base, they are ok, even Good.... but I need to get better at flying them.
In recent times, I have been flying a lot of block/formation styles, and I think that it is a habit that I probably have to break... maybe?
How do you fly two with a support ship (or even one with a support ship and another ace/X1)? Fly fairly independently and trust the Throttle when you jump into combat? Loose formation for a solid front arc?

Also, their dial seems a touch limited for getting through some tight spaces, and that is definitely something I am having to get used to.

2 hours ago, Vespid1311 said:

Also, their dial seems a touch limited for getting through some tight spaces, and that is definitely something I am having to get used to.

Tight spaces are not where they want to be, thats for sure. Lots of room needed to stretch their legs in and keep them from being so single track predictable.

I never fly formation anything, but a single Defender is a solo beast to me anyway. Ideally, you persuade your opponent to split their arcs, so they have a much smaller chance of doing any damage to it. Basically, I use them as wandering bullies, run away when all the friends come over to help

Flying a couple generics, I'd want to keep them much closer together, screening the support/ace, but you'd have to know well in advance where your 4k lanes and 3 turns are, being very careful not to leave your 3rd ship high and dry.

A note on the 4k. I often fall into the trap of dropping it too early and giving myself bad options for a 3 speed the following turn. So take a very good look ahead on those turns. Trust Full Throttle and Range 3, use them to set up a 4k that gives you a nice run back into the fight.

Also, hardly anyone actually expects a Defender to go slow. Which can be funny.

6 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Also, hardly anyone actually expects a Defender to go slow. Which can be funny.

↑This !
Sometimes the best move you have is that silly 1 bank nobody expects.

17 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

3x Zealous Recruits running at 200pt says hi!

But yes. It's rare to see a Delta blocked

For the simple existence of Init 1 ships, I've thought about having a small bid with Palp/Delta/Delta. But then again, with a Coordinating shuttle, it's really hard to get blocked anyhow.

1 hour ago, Ximatique said:

↑This !
Sometimes the best move you have is that silly 1 bank nobody expects.

Last night I not once, but twice in a row used the 1 bank. I think I used it 4 times in the game between my two Delta’s. And it was very effective too.

Who needs evades when you don’t get shot.

I also pulled off the block of all blocks. One defender, against a Rebel synergy (Jan, Dutch, Garven, Wulfwarro) list and I 4K to face them (I’d flanked with that one the turn prior) take my evade focus as I had a lock. And that one defender blocked all 4 of the Rebel ships. Echo turned in from the rear while my other defender basically swapped places with the first one. Now two ships behind his list, and no actions for any of them. It was glorious.

Then Jan rolled one hit and I blanked out and knew where this was going. Poor defender with a token stack. You blocked everyone, and died for it.

23 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

My problem with Defenders is that Vader + FCS + Afterburners feel like a steal in comparison. 3 green dice backed by three force (or more realistically 2 force and a focus) at any speed at I6, doesn't feel bad compared to the 3 green dice with focus = evade at predictable 3+ speeds. That Vader build is 75 points while any named TIE/d is minimum 81 points. The Dark Lord always slots in better for any list I am making. Even if you want a beefcake to tank hits, Redline + Protorps + Adv. Sesnors is 75 points as well.

On the Vader vs Delta comparison, the Delta is way, way tougher. Single shots often expect to put damage into Vader. Single shots outside or R1 are unlikely to damage a Defender unless they're ordnance or have some other special ability. The extra hit points make it harder to get half points on and tougher to kill overall. There's an argument that Vader is better, but I think they're not really in similar niches.

4 hours ago, Ximatique said:

↑This !
Sometimes the best move you have is that silly 1 bank nobody expects.

Yep!

19 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Yep!

That's an invitation to tautology.

It doesn't matter that sometimes the 1-bank is good; the dial in aggregate is very bad.

11 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

That's an invitation to tautology.

It doesn't matter that sometimes the 1-bank is good; the dial in aggregate is very bad.

It's not the best, but it's pretty okay, and the 4k and boost/roll access makes up for a lot.