22 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Had the exact same quandary with him. Become addicted to SuperV1s and his drop made me look at it again. Now only 76pt!

Obviously that's still massively expensive and makes him a prime component, well over a 3rd of the list. So it's extremely hard to balance a good squad around him.

I'm trying not to settle on the conclusion that you can only get good value from him without SNR.

76 is very expensive for a 2-attack. But the action economy is so bonkers good and I5 is so high, he'll almost always have a lock. Clusters at 5 points become pretty decent for when your force isn't free to get the extra die (think of it as 4 backup force charges for R2 only). Add FCS on top of that and he packs quite a punch. You'll always have a token stack for defense or double-mods for offense, whichever you happen to need, and you can debuff R1 attacks if you ever mess up so badly as to end up in that position, or snipe from R3 with abandon.

The linked actions mean that most turns you won't even need SR . So you can save your force for the turns you need that plus your ability and just stack up like crazy.

You can fit him easily with Duchess and Whisper (with upgrades and a good bid), or you could just squeeze in Vader and Soontir if you drop the missiles. You could add a Sloane shuttle and two strikers or interceptors or 3 TIEs, or you could make it a Ciena Ree Kagi shuttle and still have room for a fully-stacked ace. Or Jendon and two Plasma bombers. Or two passive Proton Torpedo Punishers.

His price point, even with SR, is very flexible.

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

76 is very expensive for a 2-attack. But the action economy is so bonkers good and I5 is so high, he'll almost always have a lock. Clusters at 5 points become pretty decent for when your force isn't free to get the extra die (think of it as 4 backup force charges for R2 only). Add FCS on top of that and he packs quite a punch. You'll always have a token stack for defense or double-mods for offense, whichever you happen to need, and you can debuff R1 attacks if you ever mess up so badly as to end up in that position, or snipe from R3 with abandon.

The linked actions mean that most turns you won't even need SR . So you can save your force for the turns you need that plus your ability and just stack up like crazy.

You can fit him easily with Duchess and Whisper (with upgrades and a good bid), or you could just squeeze in Vader and Soontir if you drop the missiles. You could add a Sloane shuttle and two strikers or interceptors or 3 TIEs, or you could make it a Ciena Ree Kagi shuttle and still have room for a fully-stacked ace. Or Jendon and two Plasma bombers. Or two passive Proton Torpedo Punishers.

His price point, even with SR, is very flexible.

Fair. I'll certainly look again at what I can squeeze in now.

Just that the other 2 SuperV1 pilots are so much cheaper! I'm all over them

What about

Seventh Sister

-Supernatural Reflexes

-Passive Sensors

-Concussion Missile (or whatever)

For a total of 67 points.

It would work with any force-using V1, not just Seventh Sister. The end result is Super boost/roll into a focus, take a blue action, passive sensor, and set yourself up for a full mod (possibly missile) attack -or-get a Calculate to backup your Focus.

53 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

What about

Seventh Sister

-Supernatural Reflexes

-Passive Sensors

-Concussion Missile (or whatever)

For a total of 67 points.

It would work with any force-using V1, not just Seventh Sister. The end result is Super boost/roll into a focus, take a blue action, passive sensor, and set yourself up for a full mod (possibly missile) attack -or-get a Calculate to backup your Focus.

I feel like you'd struggle to get the mileage out of 7S, but at 52 points the generic Inquisitor with that load-out seems pretty good:

Inquisitor — TIE Advanced v1	35
Supernatural Reflexes	8
Passive Sensors	3
Concussion Missiles	6
Ship Total: 52
Half Points: 26 Threshold: 2

Granted, that 15 points gives you another force point and an initiative level so ymmv.

1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

What about

-v1

-Supernatural Reflexes

-Passive Sensors

I think it'd work wonders for multiple Cluster carriers but I'm not convinced there's a list that can really hold it down. The problem is, it then comes to 51, which is a bit of a breakpoint for me.

Kinda thought about pairing 2 with a couple Crack Shot Sigmas. Not exactly sure what to do with it.

2 would fit with a nice Rex, so there is that. I'm into Vessery atm, so Passive is weird and doesn't leave room for other things I want.

3 might be nice. But it leaves not a lot.

Equipping it to a solo v1 doesn't feel worth it to me. Focus/evade is just the safest option till you're in position and target selection isn't so thorny.

With the Clusters though. I could feasibly acquire their locks normally, on a flyby. Vessery fires. V1s save their locks. Next turn, Sensors. Vessery finishes the locked target. V1s acquire new locks, as and where needed.

I honestly think I prefer the extra mod of FCS over target selection, but it might be worth testing. Certainly with Rex.

Definitely feels like 3 would maximise the benefits. Maybe with Maarek? I dunno. Unconvinced.

SBP with Sloane, drop 1 Sensor....

9 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I think it'd work wonders for multiple Cluster carriers but I'm not convinced there's a list that can really hold it down. The problem is, it then comes to 51, which is a bit of a breakpoint for me.

With Clusters I'd like to think you can get away without Passive Sensors, since you only need the lock for closer engagements. I've been looking at something like:

Inquisitor + SNR + Cluster Missiles
Inquisitor + SNR + Cluster Missiles
Inquisitor + SNR + Cluster Missiles
Soontir + Predator

Total: 199

On 7/9/2019 at 9:15 AM, Skitch_ said:

I have to disagree. FFG hasn't banned anything. In the case of SNR, they have simply informed the community that if you want to have complete board-state knowledge before you dodge all the arcs on your I6 then you have to pay out the nose for it, which is how it should be.

SNR Inquisitors are really fun. I like dropping Prockets on them too. It's a great way to spend 50 points.

It is cheaper to add another ship to your list than to put Supernatural Reflexes on Luke. There is no way you will get enough value out of a single upgrade at I5 to compensate for the opportunity cost of not having an extra ship.

That's as close to a ban as you can get.

26 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

It is cheaper to add another ship to your list than to put Supernatural Reflexes on Luke.

This is true.

26 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

There is no way you will get enough value out of a single upgrade at I5 to compensate for the opportunity cost of not having an extra ship.

This is not.

Luke mitigates basically every downside to the upgrade. He has nearly unlimited force, he can close the foils for boost or linked boost, or he can take 1 damage to prevent much more. I6 is somewhat rare, and a good-sized bid means your Luke is moving after almost everything. Now, Primed Thrusters Kylo, on the other hand...

26 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

That's as close to a ban as you can get.

Costing it at something like 80 points would be much closer. You can still take 2 high-initiative SR aces in a list with room for upgrades and a giant bid:

Grand Inquisitor (52)
Supernatural Reflexes (24)
Fire-Control System (2)

Darth Vader (67)
Supernatural Reflexes (32)
Fire-Control System (2)
Afterburners (6)

Total: 185

Not saying that's competitive, but it has absurd action economy and would be crazy hard to catch. It will reward you really well for catching them, but a great player will make that very, very difficult for you.

It's not banned, and it's not broken. It's a wildly powerful card, accurately priced.

Yeah, you could have Luke taking free boosts / barrel rolls.

Or you could have an entire other Z-95 with it's own set of actions and that can also shoot and gives an extra 2S/2H to your list and gives you extra attack arc and...


That's what 'opportunity cost' means. By taking Supernatural Reflexes, you missed out on something that is just plain better. Your list is mathematically worse.

6 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

By  taking Supernatural Reflexes, you missed out on something that is just plain better. Your list is mathematically worse.

more prone to variance perhaps, but not worse. Here’s another to chew on, I haven’t lost with it yet. However it is… fraught to play as

Deadly Duo

(62) Anakin Skywalker [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(20) Delta-7B
(32) Supernatural Reflexes
(6) R2 Astromech
Points: 120

(45) Mace Windu [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(18) Delta-7B
(16) Supernatural Reflexes
Points: 79

Total points: 199

i also had one that dropped the second SNR on Anakin for a Gold and droid on Mace. It wasn’t strictly better.

4 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

more prone to variance perhaps, but not worse. Here’s another to chew on, I haven’t lost with it yet. However it is… fraught to play as

Deadly Duo

(62) Anakin Skywalker [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(20) Delta-7B
(32) Supernatural Reflexes
(6) R2 Astromech
Points: 120

(45) Mace Windu [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(18) Delta-7B
(16) Supernatural Reflexes
Points: 79

Total points: 199

i also had one that dropped the second SNR on Anakin for a Gold and droid on Mace. It wasn’t strictly better.

Seems a shallow bid for a 2-ship list. I thin I'd sooner drop the R2 than the bid. Then again I6 doesn't have that much competition.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Seems a shallow bid for a 2-ship list. I thin I'd sooner drop the R2 than the bid. Then again I6 doesn't have that much competition.

I don’t care about bids, or moving last. I do fine without.

The other thing is that pre points change it had more of a bid anyhow, haven’t flown it since. But I also had the R4-P and P-17 mechs on here instead.

29 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

more prone to variance perhaps, but not worse.  Here’s another to chew on, I haven’t lost with it yet. However it is… fraught to play as

Deadly Duo

(62) Anakin Skywalker [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(20) Delta-7B
(32) Supernatural Reflexes
(6) R2 Astromech
Points: 120

(45) Mace Windu [Delta-7 Aethersprite]
(18) Delta-7B
(16) Supernatural Reflexes
Points: 79

Total points: 199

i also had one that dropped the second SNR on Anakin for a Gold and droid on Mace. It wasn’t strictly better.

No, worse. Just worse.

With Luke + SS, you get extra action economy.

With an extra Z-95, you get precisely the same amount of extra action economy and then also a whole extra hull that said action economy is glued to. For SS to be competitive, it would have to not only add bonus action economy but also compensate for the loss in hull, shields attack power and utility.

EDIT: Another way of looking at it is as follow: imagine we played against each other and one of us had Luke + SS while another had Luke + Z-95. Which list do you think comes out ahead more often?

TIE Advanced v1 - Inquisitor - 46
Inquisitor - (35)
Supernatural Reflexes (8)

Total: 46/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

enough said... i usually run with fire control as well, and maybe a missile to flavor.

allowing 3 actions a turn every turn... is very good? ya.

2 hours ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

Yeah, you could have Luke taking free boosts / barrel rolls.

Or you could have an entire other Z-95 with it's own set of actions and that can also shoot and gives an extra 2S/2H to your list and gives you extra attack arc and...


That's what 'opportunity cost' means. By taking Supernatural Reflexes, you missed out on something that is just plain better. Your list is mathematically worse.

But it’s just a Z-95. They are probably the most basic snub fighter in the game. They accomplish things by the virtue of being fielded in a swarm of cheap and expendable ships that are somewhat worse than A-Wings at damned near everything. Sure giving Luke SNR is as much as an Initiative-1 Z-95, but an Initiative-1 Z-95 by itself isn’t much more than a cheap filler ship to hopefully block with.

The only time I would go for a Z-95 over Supernatural Reflexes in a list that is already fielding Luke, is if I’ve got 3 other Z-95s that could use a 4th wingman.

6 hours ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

Another way of looking at it is as follow: imagine we played against each other and one of us had Luke + SS while another had Luke + Z-95. Which list do you think comes out ahead more often?

Luke with Supernatural Reflexes every time .

I'd be willing to say you could have SNR Luke vs a non-SNR Luke and two Z-95s and the SNR Luke would still win more often than not, that's how degenerate SNR is.

Just now, DR4CO said:

I'd be willing to say you could have SNR Luke vs a non-SNR Luke and two Z-95s and the SNR Luke would still win if you played it well , that's how amazing SNR is.

Fixed it. Seriously SR is heavily skill-dependent, even when you do have perfect information. It basically depends on you never getting hit and being happy to just deal plink damage all game, or else positioning well so you only need it very rarely. The goal is to use it as little as possible, but to have the option of saying "nope" when you really need to. Think of it like Iden Versio for positioning, except harder to use.

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Seriously SR is heavily skill-dependent, even when you do have perfect information. It basically depends on you never getting hit and being happy to just deal plink damage all game, or else positioning well so you only need it very rarely. The goal is to use it as little as possible, but to have the option of saying "nope" when you really need to. Think of it like Iden Versio for positioning, except harder to use.

For the record, I have flown SNR ships extensively (including taking Luke-Wedge to a recent Hyperspace Trial), so I am familiar with how they play and that it is both entirely possible to do it wrong, and that it falls in a spectacular heap when one does.

But something being capable of being used incorrectly, and it being completely degenerate are not mutually exclusive. SNR (and pre-move reposition in general) is one of the more brutal agency robbing mechanics in the game.

24 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

SNR (and pre-move reposition in general) is one of the more brutal agency robbing mechanics in the game.

I think it's the potential to pair it with high initiative and the option to do it 'free' that's really painful.

A good comparison - without anything supernatural in sight - are strikers.

• The Planetary Sentinel must use its ailerons. This gives it some seriously hinky manoeuvrability, especially on segnor's loops. But at initiative 1 and with no option not to use it you've got to incorporate it into your planning. That said, once you get your head round it you can still pull off some serious "where the **** did they go!?!?!" moves - but it never feels, to you or an opponent, like you're playing on 'easy mode'.
• Duchess makes the aileron move optional, and is now I5, meaning she goes last much of the time. Suddenly, ailerons become this super-duper advanced sensors boost, and she's one of the Imperial's best knife fighters along with Soontir and ol' Helicopter-blades.....
  • Which is probably a rather interesting squad, come to think of it.

Thing with Duchess though is twofold

First, Ailerons aren't as flexible as boost/roll (yes it's great to run into people with Aileron, but options of roll gives lateral movement)

Second, are far more importantly, force users can abuse THE **** out of SNR (just look at Vader!). Even non-vaders can get platforms with linked actions (tiev1) or fine tuned control

And you still have force

AND unlike sensors it doesn't even cost your action step!

It's a bit of a landslide of bull

9 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

...

Second, are far more importantly, force users can abuse THE **** out of SNR (just look at Vader!). Even non-vaders can get platforms with linked actions (tiev1) or fine tuned control

And you still have force

AND unlike sensors it doesn't even cost your action step!

It's a bit of a landslide of bull

This is why I’m perfectly happy with SNR costing 24pts for Initiative 5, and 32 for Initiative 6. It’s really ******* good, especially since it doesn’t limit how many actions you can take in a turn (like Adv Sensors. I see it as basically a boost/roll Advanced Sensors++.

20 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

But it’s just a Z-95. They are probably the most basic snub fighter in the game. They accomplish things by the virtue of being fielded in a swarm of cheap and expendable ships that are somewhat worse than A-Wings at damned near everything. Sure giving Luke SNR is as much as an Initiative-1 Z-95, but an Initiative-1 Z-95 by itself isn’t much more than a cheap filler ship to hopefully block with.

The only time I would go for a Z-95 over Supernatural Reflexes in a list that is already fielding Luke, is if I’ve got 3 other Z-95s that could use a 4th wingman.

it is an entire ship. It's a base to block with, guns to shoot, etc.

This is the most ridiculous argument I think I've ever had about X-Wing. An extra Z-95 can actually win you a game - supernatural reflexes leaves the board with Luke. Do you want to shoot with 5 dice or do you want to shoot with 3 dice and get a sneak in a barrel roll pre-activation (or a boost if you're willing to take attrition)? Oh yeah, and the Z-95 is a point less that SR, which means it even contributes towards a bid win.


SR was great (too good) at the previous value, even as expensive as it was, because it was still below the value of a cheap blocker. When it is more expensive than a blocker, it is no longer worth the opportunity cost.

1 hour ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

it is an entire ship. It's a base to block with, guns to shoot, etc.

This is the most ridiculous argument I think I've ever had about X-Wing. An extra Z-95 can actually win you a game - supernatural reflexes leaves the board with Luke. Do you want to shoot with 5 dice or do you want to shoot with 3 dice and get a sneak in a barrel roll pre-activation (or a boost if you're willing to take attrition)? Oh yeah, and the Z-95 is a point less that SR, which means it even contributes towards a bid win.


SR was great (too good) at the previous value, even as expensive as it was, because it was still below the value of a cheap blocker. When it is more expensive than a blocker, it is no longer worth the opportunity cost.

By that argument, there’s no reason to use any ship that costs 46pts or more. Starviper? Just get 2 Z-95s for 4 attack dice and an entire second ship! Wedge? Meh, you can grab 2 Z-95s and have room for a missile or two! 4-LOM? More like “go for another Z!”

The thing is, it doesn’t matter if you can cram an Initiative-1 Z-95 into your list instead of Supernatural Reflexes, just like it’s silly to compare anything on a scale of how many Z-95s you can fit instead. Guri with Advanced Sensors absolutely WILL wreck a pair of Z-95s, unless you crash her into a rock (like me!). I’d be willing to bet money that in the hands of a good player she can wreck 4 of them! Likewise I’ll use SNR Luke over Luke with an attached cannon-fodder because while adding that Z is giving you a total of 5 base attack dice, it’s split into two attacks each with the normal allotment of defense dice.

Zs have their place, don’t get me wrong. I have 8 of the little ships, almost as many as I do Tie fighters. And I do enjoy fielding piles of the little snub fighters... But generally speaking I find just adding a single Z over fattening up an ace to be a bit of a disappointment.

On 7/9/2019 at 12:42 AM, Schu81 said:

Isn't it just a worse version of the step any Phantom can do regularly? Apart from that, Luke is getting to expensive...

Do you think the pricing for "Supernatural Reflexes" is okay and do you still use it for 24 points?

Phantoms can't decloak at their initiative after they've seen where every other ship in play has maneuvered, they have to do it in the system phase. Because that's how Phantoms used to work when they first came out in 1.0 and it broke the game completely in half. Being able to reposition your ship after you've seen where all the other ships have moved but before you execute your maneuver devalues the skill of predicting an opponents maneuvers.

And that's how Supernatural should have worked, in the system phase, but FFG just couldn't help themselves for some reason, even though they made this perfect phase of the game where everything that isn't a normal maneuver-then-action mechanic should be happening, they decided to keep making things like SNR and Advance Sensors happen at initiative in the activation phase and both of them turned out to be way too strong and both had have their prices hiked up.