Greetings.

Below is an idea I have to remake Iaijutsu duels. These rules are a work-in-progress. I am putting them in a short format, meaning I’m leaving out a lot of the obvious filler information that might be found in a fully realized ruleset.

The goal of this ruleset is manifold. First, I want Iaijutsu duels to stand out within the game. In prior editions such duels were conducted as their own mini-game, which achieved this objective. Second, I want such duels to be quick. As the primary means of resolving disputes, Iaijutsu duels should come up somewhat frequently, and I’d rather minimize the time that other players spend on the sidelines watching. Thirdly, I don’t want an Iaijutsu techniques to be mandatory (so characters can just use water stance). Finally, I want the rules to have the potential to be deadly. In prior editions, it was possible to die in a single stroke during an Iaijutsu duel.

The rules below aim to strike a balance between the 5 rings. Earth and Water play into your character’s composure, which is just as important in these rules as in the RAW dueling rules. Air and Fire add to your initiative, which I theorize is more important in these rules than in the typical skirmish.

Techniques that modify your initiative and opportunity should still be fully viable using these rules. You can even use special attach techniques under some circumstances.

Here’s the short version of the rules. Unless otherwise noted, assume the rules will proceed like a Skirmish.

INITIATIVE

During initiative, you roll Meditation at TN1, and add your focus to the result.

Then, you secretly bid, adding your bid to your strife. This is similar to bidding during a duel using the RAW, but you can bid an amount equal to your Composure (rather than your focus).

Next, you secretly divide points between the following two options. You get a number of points equal to the amount you bid.

1. STAIR DOWN: Your intensity impresses or intimidates your foe. Each point placed in this category increases your foe’s strife by 1.
2. FOCUS: You palm quivers as you prepare for the ultimate strike. Each point placed in this category increases your initiative by 1.

After both players have secretly bid, and divided their bid between Stair Down and Focus, they simultaneously reveal their selections. Play then proceeds to the Action Phase.

After bids are revealed, if one or more characters are compromised, then a Finishing Blow is triggered. This functions per RAW dueling rules, except that ties go to the player with the higher initiative (rather than to the player with lower honor).

During the action phase, the character with the highest initiative goes first. If initiative is tied, then both characters take their action simultaneously. The actions available are:

First Strike: The character who wins initiative makes a strike. This counts as a Finishing Blow.

Strike: A strike.

Recover: Roll Meditation, and add the result to your initiative on the following round IF the duel proceeds past the first round.

Tech: Use a technique.

Water stance can draw their weapon before taking their attack.

If the duel isn’t finished after the first round, it turns into a skirmish and play proceeds as normal.

Analysis is welcome.

I don't get it. hard to understand, but doesn't it make the duelist with more composure simply able to destroy the other one all the time?

I think the design process should start with a clear goal.

Here is your goal:

The goal of this ruleset is manifold. First, I want Iaijutsu duels to stand out within the game. [it already does, but ok]

In prior editions such duels were conducted as their own mini-game, which achieved this objective. [they still are their own mini-game]

Second, I want such duels to be quick. [indeed they can be slow]

Thirdly, I don’t want an Iaijutsu techniques to be mandatory (so characters can just use water stance). [Iaijutsu techniques are not mandatory at all for duels, you can always use water stance]

Finally, I want the rules to have the potential to be deadly. In prior editions, it was possible to die in a single stroke during an Iaijutsu duel. [a finishing blow is extremely deadly already]


SO, basically, your rules are way too complicated for the simple goal that you want to achieve: make duels quicker.

You need to be more precise about your intentions, and nail the issue on the head in one single moment. Probably that your issues with Dueling in the system are not as wide as you think. Reducing the lenght of the duels wouldn't require that much changes.

I can definitely see where my goal is hazy. I’ll have to work on that.

Another way to phrase this whole house rule is perhaps to summarize it this way: It’s like RAW dueling, but lasts only 1 round, increases the amount you can bid, and allows you to give strife to your opponent. That’s a basic overview of the rules, if it’s easier to frame it that way.

A character with high composure would have an advantage, but no moreso than a character with high Focus. If the higher composure character bids too much, he could be pushed to Compromise by the other character. If he doesn’t bid enough, then his opponent could get a higher initiative.

Heck, if you have a higher composure and a higher focus, you could still lose if you play too conservatively. If you don’t bid enough for fear of your opponent causing you to become Compromised, your opponent might get his initiative higher than yours.

Meaning, there’s a rock-paper-scissors esq mind game that you have to play, similar to the action scripting of Burning Wheel or the blind bidding of Burn Legend. It might be TOO much guessing for my taste, but it might also be just right.

9 hours ago, AndyDay303 said:

I can definitely see where my goal is hazy. I’ll have to work on that.

Another way to phrase this whole house rule is perhaps to summarize it this way: It’s like RAW dueling, but lasts only 1 round, increases the amount you can bid, and allows you to give strife to your opponent. That’s a basic overview of the rules, if it’s easier to frame it that way.

A character with high composure would have an advantage, but no moreso than a character with high Focus. If the higher composure character bids too much, he could be pushed to Compromise by the other character. If he doesn’t bid enough, then his opponent could get a higher initiative.

Heck, if you have a higher composure and a higher focus, you could still lose if you play too conservatively. If you don’t bid enough for fear of your opponent causing you to become Compromised, your opponent might get his initiative higher than yours.

Meaning, there’s a rock-paper-scissors esq mind game that you have to play, similar to the action scripting of Burning Wheel or the blind bidding of Burn Legend. It might be TOO much guessing for my taste, but it might also be just right.

Now I understand it.

I do like the bidding system you are implementing.

And since no matter what, the strike is a finishing blow (either because compromised or win initiative). You are basically bidding on two fronts to get the finishing blow.

Nice.

Obviously, it makes a lot of the rules irrelevant; predict and center are just taken out of the picture and rings become more of a stat block than anything else.
To a certain extent, finishing blows are so strong that I'm not even certain you need a good melee skill under this houserule since you basically do a finish blow all the time and only need a 2 or 3 success to eviscerate the opponent.

Very interesting ground for a one shot duel. I like the mindgame! though the mindgame becomes the most important thing here (and the initiative). The ease to achieve a super strong finishing blow does make a character with 5 melee or 2 melee about the same.

Water ring becomes the best ring here as it is straight up a +4 crit severity during a finish blow compared to a Iaijutsu tech.

Basically, I like it. But it is a radical change to the core system, and I would like it more if it rewarded the Melee skill a wee bit more.

Though, really, does finishing blow REALLY needs to be times 2 ? I generally hate multipliers like this because they make high severity weapon (2h katana 7x2 = 14!, vs a Bo Staff 2x2 = 4) exponentionally high.
what about if the severity of the finishing blow was not x2 ? Bonus successes would still give it +1 severity according to the finishing blow rules, making the melee skill more relevant ?
And if you want it to be more deadly, maybe add + Rank, or +Vigilance to the severity ?

18 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Though, really, does finishing blow REALLY needs to be times 2 ? I generally hate multipliers like this because they make high severity weapon (2h katana 7x2 = 14!, vs a Bo Staff 2x2 = 4) exponentionally high.

I think you do, just because of the way critical strikes work.

For the potential for a one-hit-kill, you need a critical strike of....12+, I think?

That's after a fitness check, so realistically you can add a couple of points of severity onto that, which probably balances out any gain from bonus successes.

You can properly mess up someone's face with a 'standard' critical from a double-handed katana, and cause them bleeding, but it's almost impossible to kill them outside a finishing blow without hitting them multiple times.

(obviously for minions it's kind of irrelevant but then you're probably not going to play out a full-blown duel against minion-level NPCs).

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think you do, just because of the way critical strikes work.

For the potential for a one-hit-kill, you need a critical strike of....12+, I think?

That's after a fitness check, so realistically you can add a couple of points of severity onto that, which probably balances out any gain from bonus successes.

You can properly mess up someone's face with a 'standard' critical from a double-handed katana, and cause them bleeding, but it's almost impossible to kill them outside a finishing blow without hitting them multiple times.

(obviously for minions it's kind of irrelevant but then you're probably not going to play out a full-blown duel against minion-level NPCs).

I was hoping the bonus successes could take care of that.

In finishing blows, with a razor edged weapon, both opportunities and bonus successes increase severity (and you do not need 2 opp to crit). I feel it is legit to make the killing blow.

Especially in contrast with how absolutely pathetic critical hits are outside of duels and HPS (another subject, but that is weak design that needs a fix).

2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I was hoping the bonus successes could take care of that.

In finishing blows, with a razor edged weapon, both opportunities and bonus successes increase severity (and you do not need 2 opp to crit). I feel it is legit to make the killing blow.

Especially in contrast with how absolutely pathetic critical hits are outside of duels and HPS (another subject, but that is weak design that needs a fix).

I imagine that any method of increasing the weapon deadliness for a finishing blow would work. One guy increased deadliness by focus, which I like, but that might emphasize focus too much.

Mid you don’t make deadliness x2, then a finishing blow would end up just like HPS (bonus successes + opportunity + weapon = deadliness). My only experience with HPS came from a level 4 Crane duelist, which skewed its effectiveness upwards a lot. Is HPS particularly deadly without Kakitas training ?

In prior editions of L5R one could be an effective duelist with a mediocre melee skill. That’s part of my inspiration for this mod. Not to say that is necessary or even good here.

I am glad you’ve come to understand the somewhat confusing double resource system this uses. My question is: is there too much guesswork? At the end of the day, Rock Paper Scissors ends up being a mind game with a decent bit of luck in it, due to the guesswork. Does this have too much?

1 minute ago, AndyDay303 said:

I imagine that any method of increasing the weapon deadliness for a finishing blow would work. One guy increased deadliness by focus, which I like, but that might emphasize focus too much.

Mid you don’t make deadliness x2, then a finishing blow would end up just like HPS (bonus successes + opportunity + weapon = deadliness). My only experience with HPS came from a level 4 Crane duelist, which skewed its effectiveness upwards a lot. Is HPS particularly deadly without Kakitas training ?

In prior editions of L5R one could be an effective duelist with a mediocre melee skill. That’s part of my inspiration for this mod. Not to say that is necessary or even good here.

I am glad you’ve come to understand the somewhat confusing double resource system this uses. My question is: is there too much guesswork? At the end of the day, Rock Paper Scissors ends up being a mind game with a decent bit of luck in it, due to the guesswork. Does this have too much?

HPS with Kakita is almost busted.
HPS with others is still quite good, since fire gives a lot of bonus successes. So with a Katana 7 deadliness (vanilla weapon btw) you have Fire 4 Melee 3, I expect you to get 2-3 bonus success very reliably. So it is a Severity 10 with an initial TN3 to resist it. That is standard outcome, it can often be much more deadly.

I think a finishing blow at 5 or 7 deadliness, with 2 successes to hit, and bonus successes OR opportunities to increase the Severity... Your chance of getting 10+ is also pretty FAIR.
Sure, if you have a ring of 2 and a melee of 1... probably not. Unless you get lucky. But that is probably OK ?

About the luck factor, yeah, the mindgame decides almost everything with your houserule. That is why I was saying the melee skill becomes a bit irrelevant. It is about having a good composure and guessing right. Maybe the Severity of finishing blow could be deadliness + Melee Skill + bonus successes + Opportunities(razor edge) ? instead of x2 (which is IMO a design mistake).