We had some questions about how exactly this enemy works.

https://arkhamdb.com/card/05221

Quote

(Omitted some details about the enemy - relevant bits are:)

Spawn - Any location connected to yours.

Alert. Aloof. Hunter.

Forced - After you enter Knight of the Inner Circle's location (or vice-versa): Test AGILITY (4). If you fail, Knight of the Inner Circle engages you.

• If I spawn this enemy on an adjacent location that has 1 or more investigators, is that considered "entering" the location? Do the investigators there need to make the AGILITY (4) check?
• If the Knight moves in the enemy phase to a location with 2 or more investigators, how is this resolved? Do we choose what order the investigators make the skill check in? If both investigators fail, does the enemy technically Engage one and then immediately engage the other one? This would matter for an Investigator like Zoey who gets stuff when enemies engage her.
• If I passed the AGILITY (4) check and the enemy is not engaged (and still Aloof), then it just sits there and doesn't move, and I don't have to re-check to see if it engages me? So I could sit in that location for several turns and the enemy just stands there looking at me and doing nothing?
• Edit: Also (more spoilers ahead) - if the enemy loses the Aloof keyword (due to special rules in this scenario) and would therefore engage me anyway, do I still have to make this skill check? Further, if the enemy is already engaged with another investigator, and I enter the location, do I still have to make the AGILITY (4) check and the enemy might "switch targets" and engage me when I enter the location?

55 minutes ago, Faranim said:

We had some questions about how exactly this enemy works.

https://arkhamdb.com/card/05221

• If I spawn this enemy on an adjacent location that has 1 or more investigators, is that considered "entering" the location? Do the investigators there need to make the AGILITY (4) check?
• If the Knight moves in the enemy phase to a location with 2 or more investigators, how is this resolved? Do we choose what order the investigators make the skill check in? If both investigators fail, does the enemy technically Engage one and then immediately engage the other one? This would matter for an Investigator like Zoey who gets stuff when enemies engage her.
• If I passed the AGILITY (4) check and the enemy is not engaged (and still Aloof), then it just sits there and doesn't move, and I don't have to re-check to see if it engages me? So I could sit in that location for several turns and the enemy just stands there looking at me and doing nothing?
• Edit: Also (more spoilers ahead) - if the enemy loses the Aloof keyword (due to special rules in this scenario) and would therefore engage me anyway, do I still have to make this skill check? Further, if the enemy is already engaged with another investigator, and I enter the location, do I still have to make the AGILITY (4) check and the enemy might "switch targets" and engage me when I enter the location?

1: An enemy spawning at a location has entered that location. So, yes.

2: Both investigators would have to resolve the Forced effect, in the order of the investigators' choosing. If both investigators failed the test, then it would indeed engage one and then engage the other (disengaging from the first).

3: Assuming you don't move from the location, no other investigator enters your location, and no other card effect causes it to engage, yes. The Hunter keyword would not cause it to move since there's already an investigator at its current location, Aloof would mean it does not engage automatically, and simply sitting in its location will not trigger its ability.

4: No and yes. If the enemy does not have the Aloof keyword, it will engage you the moment you enter the location, before the "after" timing point of its Forced ability. In that case, the Forced ability will not trigger because it has no capacity to change the game state. However, if the enemy is already engaged with a player when you enter its location or it enters your location, the Forced ability will trigger because at that point it can change the game state, and it will indeed cause the enemy to disengage from the current engaged investigator and engage you if you fail the test.

Thanks. I also sent this question thru the official rules inquiry form so we'll see if Matt (or whoever replies to those) confirms.

I think we played with the same rulings as you stated, but it made this enemy incredibly frustrating to deal with.

4. Wouldn't taking the test and drawing a token have the possibility of changing the game state because of token effects?

28 minutes ago, jaqenZann said:

4. Wouldn't taking the test and drawing a token have the possibility of changing the game state because of token effects?

Under 'forced abilities' in the RR:

• If a forced ability does not have the potential to change the game state, the ability does not initiate.

So it doesn't check to see if a token *might* change the game state - it simply doesn't initiate.

1 hour ago, zooeyglass said:

So it doesn't check to see if a token *might* change the game state - it  simply doesn't  initiate   .

If a token might change the game state, then surely that's the same as a test having the potential to change the game state?

7 hours ago, jaqenZann said:

4. Wouldn't taking the test and drawing a token have the possibility of changing the game state because of token effects?

Initially my thought was "no", as an extrapolation from how you don't assess costs when determining whether something changes the game state (i.e. you consider the ability itself, not other stuff around it), hence the answer I gave.

However, the developer feedback given here seems to contradict that position; a test inherently has the ability to change the game state, regardless of whether its actual effect does. So in light of that, I was probably wrong and the forced effect will trigger even if you're already engaged with it, or whatever. However it would still be best to get dev feedback because it's a new situation (forced effects, rather than choosing to take an action).

Ah so:

'Does the forced effect have the chance to change the game state?' if no, no forced effect.

'Does the forced effect force a skill test?' If yes, even if no other change will happen, you still take the test.

... is my longwinded understanding here now.

7 hours ago, zooeyglass said:

Ah so:

'Does the forced effect have the chance to change the game state?' if no, no forced effect.

'Does the forced effect force a skill test?' If yes, even if no other change will happen, you still take the test.

... is my longwinded understanding here now.

Or is that if the skill test has a chance to change the game state? E.g. will failing or pulling a specific token have an effect on the game state? Would it give the investigator the chance to trigger their signature ability or gain something from pulling the elder sign? Etc...

if not then the test would not be taken?

A skill test inherently has the chance to change the game state, since you can commit cards to it even if the test itself is meaningless.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 6:40 PM, rsdockery said:

A skill test inherently has the chance to change the game state, since you can commit cards to it even if the test itself is meaningless.

That's a good point, well made!! (unless no one has any cards in hand 😉 😂 😂 …. oh ok it wasn't that funny...)