On 7/8/2019 at 8:32 AM, redcapjack said:I'm an old player sort of looking at these new cards after nearly a decade and wondering how overwhelming a purchase it would be to start playing again.
It's important to know you'll be playing game named Legend of the Five Rings, but not L5R CCG anymore. I mean in term of strict gameplay. These both games play just so different even if look and sound familiar (two decks etc.)
On 7/12/2019 at 4:51 PM, Schmoozies said:They can only reduce costs so far before they are losing money. Thrones house decks were 69 cards for $14.95 to make a legal deck. L5R you need a minimum of 86 cards (Stronghold, 5 provinces and two 40 card dynasty and conflict decks before we factor in role cards and Imperial favor so 92 cards may even be more realistic) to make a "legal" deck. Even at that minimum we are already over the total card count for a clan pack so are looking at a minimum price point of $20 before factoring in that there are card components that are absolutely required that have to be included (honor dial at minimum and likely fate, honor and first player token as well) if you want this to replace your core product as the jumping on point for players. Its one of the reasons I set a $25 value as a minimum price point (which would still be very heavily discounted most likely since I was looking at almost 2/3rd more cards per set) but for arguments sake lets bring it down to $20. Even at that price point buying seven clans would mean $140 for a full set of cards (so still $20 more expensive then 3 cores).
Since the initial point I was countering was that these sorts of get started clan packs should replace the core sets neutral cards need to be included in the pack some where. There are absolutely Neutral cards you could leave out of individual packs as they ideal for each clan but then you are getting back to the core set issue, if players want those cards for future decks where they may function in that clan they now need to hunt additional product that they may not want for those few cards. You also need to figure out how many of each do you put in the decks. Do you set it up so that if you buy all 7 packs you would have the equivalent of 3 cores worth of cards, do you say 3 packs will get you a set of neutrals, what if you split along military and political lines for the neutrals and players aren't interested in the political or military clans. How do you divide provinces, whose stuck with Elemental Fury as their clans Water province for example. Are you saying that clans are going to be locked to a role or how do you handle Seeker versus Keeper as province rows will look very different in that case and decks have serious construction issues between lower influence and which initiate do they get. Further how do you handle splash. Are you locking a clan pack into one splash or do you just not use splash at all (making the Keeper role that much weaker). Just in clan cards from core the average 13-15 Dynasty (with Dragon and Unicorn being on the short end and Crab being on the high) and 9-11 Conflict cards (with Crab being the short side and Dragon being the only one on the high side) so that each faction got 24 cards (except for Unicorn who only got 23 in core). Just doing 3 of for each clan you'd be looking at 39-45 card deck on dynasty side and 27-33 cards on conflict side. Doesn't leave much space for customization on Dynasty to slot in the 8 dynasty side neutrals you would need to get at least 3 of each across the decks (and except for Keepers and Seekers 3 cores gives you 6 of each so really you need to get 42 cards in there to replicate the cores), conflict side you have more play room but do need to fit 6 copies of 14 cards to replicate what you get in core into those 70 slots so are still shot 14 slots assuming you aren't including any clan splash.
You could maybe make it more manageable if you said each Clan deck was meant to supplement a core set so if you bought one core and 1 clan pack you'd have a play set of cards for that faction, but that makes the cost argument even worse as now you are adding a $40 core set back into equation so the price is back to $160.00 for a play set of all cards. It also doesn't address the issue that from a retailer perspective its a horrible idea as I now have 8 different SKU's that I need to track as the "core" get started product for the game instead of 1. There is a lot more wrong with the idea then would really help honestly.
There are a lot of baseless assumption in your post. All in all it comes down to how more expensive the shipping of 4-8 packs is compared to multiple core sets, which we both don't know.
From things that Tyler said I highly doubt that the next core set will have the same cards in it as the current. It would be possible to have no neutral cards in the core set. Or we could have a seperate pack with neutral cards, tokens, dials and rings. If they decide to merge the clan packs with the core set (and maybe children of the empire), it could be cheaper than the current model.
On 7/12/2019 at 7:59 AM, kempy said:It's important to know you'll be playing game named Legend of the Five Rings, but not L5R CCG anymore. I mean in term of strict gameplay. These both games play just so different even if look and sound familiar (two decks etc.)
I finally managed to get a session in with a friend who had bought the game a few years ago... my thoughts are a little varied on it. The game-play is actually not all that different. There were vast differences, but the games essential mechanics were still there- you gain resources, you purchase people, items, actions, and you try to take down an opponents provice, gain more honor, or restrict their honor. The major differences are things I rather enjoyed:
No more Shadowlands, so "dishonor" cards are no longer a waste of time in tournaments. In fact, honor choke seems quite strong and capable in this game.
The rounds are still quick and easy to play, but allows for enough variety that clans aren't just winning by turn three with the opponent having nothing to do with a "bad draaw". It's one of the major reasons I stopped playing in the first place-
BUT- cost wise, it is still an inefficient card distribution. I find the idea of purchasing three core sets just for a full playset of cards to be very strange. I would have liked to have seen more neutral cards produced and a distribution of only a few key cards with the core set. I do, however, like the clan-specific sets that have been released. And I do like that Clan-specific actions/holdings/et al were included that leaned toward the clan specializations.
On 8/1/2019 at 11:02 PM, redcapjack said:I finally managed to get a session in with a friend who had bought the game a few years ago... my thoughts are a little varied on it. The game-play is actually not all that different. There were vast differences, but the games essential mechanics were still there- you gain resources, you purchase people, items, actions, and you try to take down an opponents provice, gain more honor, or restrict their honor. The major differences are things I rather enjoyed:
I suppose you played CCG a many, many years ago. Personally i was with CCG till the end and also played all other FFG LCG games to easily spot that new L5R is just a mix of all these mechanics. Yes you still buy guys, "attack" provinces and gain/lose honor, but overall gameeplay is just completely different. Starting with my-round, your-round, non-vanishing guys, possibility to build gold-curve, destroying Provinces (reducing resources), deadly - multi-battles (adjacency and movement/assigining), separation between battle and home (rule of presence and location), honor as control/clock system not just different color of military etc. CCG was just a more vibrant with all these mechanics, various (even on card) victory conditions, plenty of neutral cards and your clan limit was you stronghold and personalities base. High risk, high reward was motto of old game. That's just different idea.
But it's just matter of taste. Lot of my ex-CCG friends just dropped this game becasue of various design/gameplay reasons, that's nowadays it's nearly non existent in country where i live. A country where we even managed to get Euro Championships for CCG years ago. I'll be personally shocked if there wil be more than 30 local players in Grand Kotei/FFG Euros this month.
QuoteNo more Shadowlands, so "dishonor" cards are no longer a waste of time in tournaments. In fact, honor choke seems quite strong and capable in this game.
In Samurai Edition they replaced "immune to dishonor" Shadowlands faction with Spider, there was only one joke Stronghold without support . Edition later, in Celestial, they removed these things completely.
QuoteThe rounds are still quick and easy to play, but allows for enough variety that clans aren't just winning by turn three with the opponent having nothing to do with a "bad draaw". It's one of the major reasons I stopped playing in the first place-
You need to play more new game. I wonder when you notice how limited deckbuilding is, how many wrong designed cards from Core Set affect whole design. And what's important, you will learn to know that one error in early game will cost you a game but you will realize it after additional 50+ (wasted) minutes.
Edited by kempyOn 8/4/2019 at 12:14 PM, kempy said:You need to play more new game. I wonder when you notice how limited deckbuilding is, how many wrong designed cards from Core Set affect whole design. And what's important, you will learn to know that one error in early game will cost you a game but you will realize it after additional 50+ (wasted) minutes.
Wow, you sure know how to promote the game 😬
I miss the time where people played for fun and not for winning . that's one of the reasons i got this game . because it has a nice thematic / artwork , the gameplay is cool and different from any other card game i experienced and i had fun when playing it with a random online guy that was kind enough to teach me the game. he's a pro competitve player but the main reason he plays is the fun aspect. that is what most people should try to achieve. winning is cool , having fun is more.
it is just my point of view anyway
Edited by gmccIm certain that many ccg/lcg have cards that are not played enough, or at all, and cards that are overplayed or almost mandatory. Some cards from the core definitely seem to be everywhere. I guess they will find a solution by rotating stuff out, printing cards that are better, or expending their restricted list.
It becomes hard to design a card game in mind he instant internet era. Can't be perfect when thousands of players play such a complex game designed by a few.
3 hours ago, gmcc said:I miss the time where people played for fun and not for winning . that's one of the reasons i got this game .
I play the game at a decent level, having attended GenCon every year the LCG has been there and Worlds for the last two years, and the vast majority of players are there to have fun. I took hard loses in the top four of Worlds 2017 and the top 16 at GenCon this year, and smiled through them - no need to make my opponent feel bad for beating me!
Gaming is a shared social experience. Most people remember that and contribute to the experience even on the highest competitive stage.
6 hours ago, cheapmate said:Wow, you sure know how to promote the game 😬
Yeah Kempy isn't actually of fan of Nu5R. He's still convinced that its a pale version of O5R and the 20 year old design schtick that it represented.
Which makes hanging out on the Nu5R forum an odd choice, but each to their own
1 minute ago, Hinomura said:Which makes hanging out on the Nu5R forum an odd choice, but each to their own
Well, I have a lot of complaints about the Nu5Rrpg, but I still hang out in the forum. Because ultimately, I like it more than I hate its failed parts.
It is a weird state
Right, but ultimately you're trying to improve the product and make positive suggestions, I'd assume? There's nothing wrong with acknowledging faults while seeking improvement, but if the tone is completely negative and you're trying to burn the ground...not a lot to be gained there.
I honestly don't get the mindset that insists if I don't like something, I should go out of my way to explain to people who do like it why they shouldn't. I'm just clueless as to what gain there is in such a course of action. But I digress
10 minutes ago, Hinomura said:Right, but ultimately you're trying to improve the product and make positive suggestions, I'd assume? There's nothing wrong with acknowledging faults while seeking improvement, but if the tone is completely negative and you're trying to burn the ground...not a lot to be gained there.
I honestly don't get the mindset that insists if I don't like something, I should go out of my way to explain to people who do like it why they shouldn't. I'm just clueless as to what gain there is in such a course of action. But I digress
I had my ups and down, lets keep it at that
But "ultimately", yes, I am sharing how I improve the product for the sake of my enjoyement, which I can be very opiniated about, but the idea is not to burn to the ground, it is to help while staying as true as possible to the original vision (which I like for the most part).
5 hours ago, Avatar111 said:I had my ups and down, lets keep it at that
But "ultimately", yes, I am sharing how I improve the product for the sake of my enjoyement, which I can be very opiniated about, but the idea is not to burn to the ground, it is to help while staying as true as possible to the original vision (which I like for the most part).
Just implement the rule our playgroup has and anyone bringing an infinite loop deck will be punched by their opponents.
4 minutes ago, Simplegarak said:Just implement the rule our playgroup has and anyone bringing an infinite loop deck will be punched by their opponents.
I'm way too noob to even know what is an infinite loop deck, but I'll remember to punch anyone suspicious of using one
10 hours ago, Avatar111 said:I'm way too noob to even know what is an infinite loop deck, but I'll remember to punch anyone suspicious of using one
Haha, L5R just got real 😂
12 hours ago, Avatar111 said:I'm way too noob to even know what is an infinite loop deck, but I'll remember to punch anyone suspicious of using one
The problem is that the infinite combo comes out of Crab. Chances are high that you'll end up in a hospital.
2 hours ago, Ignithas said:The problem is that the infinite combo comes out of Crab. Chances are high that you'll end up in a hospital.
It's allright. I play Lion.
1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:It's allright. I play Lion.
So you get several of your buddies together and all of you punch them, eh?
(Meanwhile the scorpion convince someone else to punch them while ruining that person's credit rating.)
2 hours ago, Simplegarak said:So you get several of your buddies together and all of you punch them, eh?
(Meanwhile the scorpion convince someone else to punch them while ruining that person's credit rating.)
I play Legion of One or Way of the Lion and punch them real hard.
I have more honor than to fight a dishonorable infinite loop abuser with several buddies!