I'd like to hear other people's opinions on Beefy mini-swarms vs acey lists.

Some ace players and podcasts mentioning frustration with the number of turns played.... especially vs some rebel and now Republic lists with a lot to chew throug. ( 34 health on an Arc + 5 Torrents etc ) Between having more ships and hull to chew through, there will also be less time because I have more dials to deal with than they do. ( 6 dials vs 3 dials will nearly always take longer.. and then movement too. )

It's my opinion that these lists help throttle back i6 or i6/i5 ace lists with large bids. I've played some i4 and i5 lists and was beaten handily by i5/i6 lists because they could either get me in arc at will, or get out of my arcs with reposititons.. And if they happen to get ahead, just run away until the end of the game. IMO, those are frustrating and boring. One option is to play that game.. take high initiative repositioning ships and a large bid to be the last player to move and pounce on other ships often without return fire. I guess it may be fun to be that player.

I realize that those ships are vulnerable and one mistake can cost you the game. I'm not saying it's easy to play

I have a theory that going down the ace road leads to fewer ships, fewer engagements and a real weakness of firepower. Vader Soontir + other vs Sinker in an Arc and 5 torrents can really struggle. So many arcs to dodge.. free mods to everyone in arc of Sinker. The ace player needs to be way more aggressive than usual because

1. they have a lot of ships/points to kill
2. fewer turns because of added dial and movement time.
3. little likelyhood of getting ahead early and running away ( this may not be a common thing, but I hear of it and have seen it )

I'm curious what people think of this style of play to counter aces lists? It seems that a good counter to the swarmy list is 4-5 mid init aces... the kind of list that does not do well vs i6 lists.

If you think that my list type ruins the game, I'd love to hear it as well... along with why. No attacks on anyone please.. .keep it civil.

Overemphasis on ace play leads to first Ed

Beefy Miniswarm for days!

I'd expect trip aces lists to get a little weaker in the wave IV meta. While the transport is mostly there to support aces, the banana boat is tough and fast for a generic, Passive Sensors will be everywhere, and bombs hit aces harder than generics, relatively speaking. Jedi switching to CLT will also make them slightly tougher, especially if Brilliant Evasion sees play (I think it will, on agility 3 small ships with 2+ force and no access to Hate).

Honestly dunno how much passive sensing we'll see

There really aren't any generics that can abuse it more than a named pilot could abuse the same number of points (juke n1s come to mind)

Only really see the Boron Baktoid prototype getting much mileage out of it, tbh

Ffg made **** certain that cheap, passive Torp spam wouldn't be the way of the future...and I honestly thank them for that

I'm expecting more what the OP mentioned, stuff like Sinker torrent (but Ole! instead of an arc because he costs the same for some reason )

Nothing wrong with that. Just means we'll hopefully see some obstacles that aren't ******* gas clouds from non-beef players

15 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Honestly dunno how much passive sensing we'll see

There really aren't any generics that can abuse it more than a named pilot could abuse the same number of points (juke n1s come to mind)

Abuse is a strong word, but it might make I2 x1s at least playable. Wouldn't be surprised if PS/Crack replaces Juke on the Sigmas, and PS Imdaars seem very capable in a way they just haven't been before. Pretty sure we'll see Whisper and even Echo use it regularly.

The Punisher is probably still a little overpriced, but Nus and Naboos with just Passive Sensors and Ion Torpedoes will probably see some play. They might fire at I2 without a focus, they might not do much damage, but they're still reasonably cheap, reasonably tough, rolls four red dice and has your choice of either a reload or free evades. An ion token can easily be a death sentence for an ace.

But yeah, we won't see Passive Sensors all over the place, and rarely with protorps. It's not an general ordnance boost (a la Guidance Chimps) as much as it is a fix card for weakish ships dependent on locks, that randomly also buffs Phantoms (which happened to increase in cost anyway).

One of the things about aces is one ship is worth 2 or more of the miniswarm. Playing TIE Salad vs Rebel Beef. I knew my win condition was kill 2.5 ships and keep Vader above half. I would win games with a uwing full and half of any ship, as long as I killed two (any two). My other three ships can joust and die, and if 2 ships are off the board, Vader just has to half one and I win. Aces are points fortresses, and as the number of ships on the table decreases, they become more and more powerful. I beat a rebel beef list because he ran out of time. I had my win condition of Uwing and half a ywing left on board. Time was called. My vader was caught in two arcs, and I used my last afterburners to arc dodge them both and win. Next round, he could have Leia'd and now I am out of afterburners. But, time was on my side because of the fewer rounds played.

Shorter playtime can also benefit aces, not just beefy lists. Aces can quickly go up on points by killing a generic. Its now up to the swarm to have to speed up play and that can lead to mistakes like bumping or activating in wrong order, etc.

Time is a big part of the game. You need to be aware of it, and know how you can win and what ships you can trade with, and what ships to be cautious with (75pt Vader). You gotta be aware if a player has a points fortress and is playing VERY cautiously with him. If you have a miniswarm type of list, you may need to speed up so you have time left to catch him and not let him run and win on time. The shorter rounds can benefit both sides.

In a trip aces list like Vader Soontir Whisper vs something like Sinker and 5 torrents, if the ace player takes a torrent out and is up 25-0. Then begin hurting sinker. You can then get super aggressive and trade sinker for a ship like Soontir or Whisper and still be up on points and now its Vader and Whisper/Soontir vs 4 torrents. Easy street. It all depends on who makes the smarter opening. If ace player loses Soontir before taking off a torrent. You wont be able to trade a ship for Sinker, and now have to be very cautious rest of the game and are in for an uphill battle. I think ace players get in trouble when they think every game has to be 200-0. Get up on points, trade a ship for one of their more important ones, and get the number of enemy ships down to a reasonable number like 2vs3 and then clean up/win on points. Soontir doesnt need to liv every game. If you can trade 54pt Soontir for 54pt Sinker and cripple that lists entire offense, DO IT!

If bidding is reformed so that points don't matter and everyone just rolls off at the start to determine initiative, I'm fine with Aces being really competitive.


In the meantime, I'll take the beef thanks.

Everyone likes to take beef if there's a lot of aces.

It's seems it's less fun when it's beef mirrors.

What does well against a beefy list? Ordinance? Bombs? 4 to 5 i4 to i5 ships that can out position and have enough guns to ps kill enough ships?

I mean, aside from me flying them

On 7/9/2019 at 12:26 PM, Scott Karch said:

What does well against a beefy list? Ordinance? Bombs? 4 to 5 i4 to i5 ships that can out position and have enough guns to ps kill enough ships?

I mean, aside from me flying them

Turn 0 is such a huge deal against a list with lots of hulls. Close-off those flight lanes, set-up those choke points, spread out your squadron so you can attack from multiple angles.

In terms of list building, initiative killing seems like an obvious enough desire that is just good on its own merit as well as ships / upgrades that want to and can manage to keep the fight at R2-R3 for as long as possible.