Vizier and Palp has been my go to for the most part. I've used Vadermeil a couple times and that's definitely good. I haven't yet tried Feroph. Would you double down on defense with Feroph with Elusive??

can't imagine running elusive feroph. seems hideously redundant! and he's already pricey as is :p

but hmm, given palp isn't hyperspace legal yet we could try Vizier with 7th

Only issue here is 7th came in after beef got the boot, because she seems to have been made to counter beef!

but resistance also has some easy stress mitigation and beef is in no way dead, so that's something. At absolute worst, it's free mods for Vizier.

2 hours ago, Icelom said:

That is one use/definition. The other is the floor defines how good something is if you suck at it.

So a high floor would mean even people who suck can get a high performance, while a low floor means if you suck, you really suck.

So walking would have a high floor and low ceiling, the difference between someone who is really good at walking and someone who sucks is pretty small. Where a unicyle would have a low floor and high ceiling, the difference between sucking at and being very good are very far apart.

This is correct except perhaps in terminology. Most of us would call what you refer to “performance floor” and “performance ceiling.” A high performance floor means the worst possible skill still gets decent performance out of it. A low performance ceiling means no matter how good you are, you can only do so well with it.

Generally speaking, skill floor/ceiling and performance floor/ceiling are inversely related.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

can't imagine running elusive feroph. seems hideously redundant! and he's already pricey as is :p

but hmm, given palp isn't hyperspace legal yet we could try Vizier with 7th

Only issue here is 7th came in after beef got the boot, because she seems to have been made to counter beef!

but resistance also has some easy stress mitigation and beef is in no way dead, so that's something. At absolute worst, it's free mods for Vizier.

I wouldn't say its completely redundant, as it can trigger when Feroph's ability doesn't, but I see your point and I was worried about the points.

I like 7th as she allows for a second crew, although I'm not sure if there's a second crew worth the cost. She does make the reaper a really nice blocker on paper. Maybe informant to double down on the blocking archetype?

Not having played the Reaper, since it is not available for scum, I have played against it a few times.

From my perspective I can confirm that it takes some training to fly then well. In our group, I see the good players move them well, but they have decided against them for now. Inferno plus Reaper was popular, but only one stuck to it while another now plays howlrunner instead of the Reaper and the other who tried it has moved along completely.

I think its moves are fascinating, it can be so quick.

Tac Officer going up to 6 has hurt it for me. I've always used the Reaper with it, Vizier aside. It's integral to how I fly it, so now I need some more table time with a different approach.

But it's been a star in the past. Timing the ailerons and sloop is key. It's so mobile, it's hard for people to anticipate and deal with.

Main downside, apart from the learning curve, is how fast they die. It's not at all forgiving. Feroph can be surprisingly resilient ofc, but only if you can keep serious heat off of him.

Next time I get it on the table, it may be in this squad-

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(8) Supernatural Reflexes
(5) Cluster Missiles
Points: 48

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(8) Supernatural Reflexes
(5) Cluster Missiles
Points: 48

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(8) Supernatural Reflexes
(5) Cluster Missiles
Points: 48

(47) Captain Feroph[TIE Reaper]
(9) Seventh Sister
Points: 56

Total points: 200

Nobody will miss the coord, so it's free to Jam up the place and be annoying

I feel like the Reaper and the Resistance Bomber have both suffered the same fate...

They both have no dependable generic layout.

A. They are both ships that compete best only with specific NAMED pilot abilities.

B. Each different named pilot has a different combination of optimal upgrades that make them most useful in a squad, so you can't "just throw two of these ships with X & Y generic upgrades in your squad and it does it's job well enough".

_____

You are forced to make the optimal choices during list building, or otherwise suffer a series of "shock-therapy" disappointments of a less efficient platform performing under-par because you picked the wrong upgrades or used a generic instead of a named pilot.

______

I stand by my belief that ships like this who are in the category of "only competitive with one or two named pilots" should have their generic options steadily go down until they reach their lowest reasonable floor.

Of course, this floor is dependent on developer intentions and the limitations of math set up in the game for costing agility+HP, but the spirit of making as many things viable in one way or another must still apply to chassis who's dials and actions are competitively tied to certain upgrades.

______

EDIT

The I1 generic Reaper is 41 points ... The same price as the floor B-Wing and the T65, who are both I2 and I2 (or I1 for the Cavern Angel Zealot).

...the Reaper is likely ALREADY at it's lowest reasonable floor (until the devs are willing to let 5 Reapers on the table, which is not likely).

Is there any viable version of the generic Reaper at 41 points that fits in the Empire?

Yeah generic is a little rough, especially because the love for overlapping/slooping/red turning make Vizier's ability incredibly relevant

I guess you could Kallus? Kallus is good

In my experience, with a bit of good range control on the turn prior, the generic Reaper is a great blocker on that initial turn of engagement against both slower lists and faster lists with a more predictable move set (such as Defenders, those that double reposition with stress or those that have positioned themselves near an obstacle).
Run in and, even if you don't block with it, it is an angry 3+ dice attack (assuming they don't move out of the way). They are either shooting at that (leaving your hitters untouched) or are going to take 4 dice to the face.
Run in and, if you suspect you won't get the block or they will jump over the top, white Jam is delicious.

If you want to try to make Ruthless work, this is also one way of doing it.

Tournament level? Probably not without a lot of practice.
Store nights level, yes, absolutely. The look of horror on people's faces when you cover a full Range band of movement with some sideways motion from behind an obstacle is absolutely worth it

Played some Feroph today. With Sai and deflectors giving the reinforce, jamming/chain blocking/turnarounds/etc. denying tokens, he would not die fast in the least (except to Vultures, no surprise). Against the aces and such, you need 4 hits to punch that 2nd damage through. By the time he burns up, the Onyx Ace already has a very favorable endgame. A 7hp 1agi ship shouldn't be near-deci levels of durability, but when everything triggers, he is expected to die after the 6.2 ish double modded 3 die shot sent his way. Clouds push his level to absurdity, especially with a friend at his initiative that can coordinate.

32 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

With Sai and deflectors giving the reinforce, jamming/chain blocking/turnarounds/etc. denying tokens

I was just looking at this combination this morning.... Seems ok, though I am a little concerned about the lack of mobility at times of Stressed Feroph.

My plan was to throw Krennic and ST321 on Sai, Optimise either whatever that third ship is (Vader, Rexler, Whisper looking pretty good) or Feroph.
Feroph carries someone important. I am looking at Vader, Palpatine or Death Troopers.
I have suspicions that it is quite tanky, but able to be outmanoeuvred easily if things go wrong.

21 minutes ago, Vespid1311 said:

I was just looking at this combination this morning.... Seems ok, though I am a little concerned about the lack of mobility at times of Stressed Feroph.

My plan was to throw Krennic and ST321 on Sai, Optimise either whatever that third ship is (Vader, Rexler, Whisper looking pretty good) or Feroph.
Feroph carries someone important. I am looking at Vader, Palpatine or Death Troopers.
I have suspicions that it is quite tanky, but able to be outmanoeuvred easily if things go wrong.

Haven't considered the Krennic title combo. I just put Palp on Sai so that the shuttle with a Juke HLC Onyx has a whopping endgame. I think Vader also sounds good, but as you say, Feroph becomes pricey. I like him as a beefier countdown that jams, but even with the synergy with Vader crew, his pricetag again exceeds the value his lifespan offers.

The reaper need to come down in price.

For me I think the ship is just too difficult to fly for the rewards you get. IE not worth the hassle. Especially with how fragile it can be.

On 7/5/2019 at 1:45 AM, BVRCH said:

Vizier and Palp has been my go to for the most part.

That's a really good combination.

One of my favourite 1st edition squads was a reaper and the named strikers with Adrenaline Rush.

Vizier/Palpatine plus elusive on the strikers is a pretty close match, letting you carry a lot of dice efficiency through a red move, and strikers love their flexible red dial.

Reapers are a ton of fun, and have been tremendously effective for me. One of my favorite lists included a Reaper, Striker, Echo, and Sigma. Unfortunately it was priced out. But dropping the Sigma to Seventh Sister works, and it causes nightmares for my opponents.

How do you predict where any one of those ships ends up, let alone all four.

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

Reapers are a ton of fun, and have been tremendously effective for me. One of my favorite lists included a Reaper, Striker, Echo, and Sigma. Unfortunately it was priced out. But dropping the Sigma to Seventh Sister works, and it causes nightmares for my opponents.

How do you predict where any one of those ships ends up, let alone all four.

I had a little fling with something similar. I believe it was Reaper, Sabacc, Echo and Maarek. Can't remember which Reaper pilot now. Very good fun.

Where I'm at now, 7th Sister would be near auto-include.

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I had a little fling with something similar. I believe it was Reaper, Sabacc, Echo and Maarek. Can't remember which Reaper pilot now. Very good fun.

Where I'm at now, 7th Sister would be near auto-include.

Vermiel for me. It was an all I4 list, which given the peculiarities of each ship can be tremendously useful. Either setting up intentional blocks (often to stop the Reaper) or to be agile to make complicated shuffles out of everyone’s way.

Seventh Sister maintains that initiative flexibility.

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 2:33 AM, ficklegreendice said:

Only issue here is 7th came in after beef got the boot, because she seems to have been made to counter beef!

11 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Where I'm at now, 7th Sister would be near auto-include.

Can I ask why?

I mean, I get the "cheapest Imperial Force Crew going" bit - is it more than that? Her tractor effect is nice if you can reduce a target's agility then punch it repeatedly with a heavy swarm, but is she really that good given that she's got to be at range 1 against a stressed target?

Or is she more for pairing with Feroph specifically (since the Captain is probably tough enough to survive doing that).

I can see using Vader as essentially 1.0 Jamming Redux being nice.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Can I ask why?

I mean, I get the "cheapest Imperial Force Crew going" bit - is it more than that? Her tractor effect is nice if you can reduce a target's agility then punch it repeatedly with a heavy swarm, but is she really that good given that she's got to be at range 1 against a stressed target?

Or is she more for pairing with Feroph specifically (since the Captain is probably tough enough to survive doing that).

I can see using Vader as essentially 1.0 Jamming Redux being nice.

Ah now, I was actually meaning 7th Sister pilot, as per Miller's list, in a Reaper plus 3 deal.

Was going to edit to make that clearer and then felt well, if not pilot, I likely would go crew

As crew though, auto-include doesn't really apply, but it still seems a strong choice. Has to be on Feroph for me, needs that extra resilience for the cost.

As for the ability, there is an awful lot of stress mechanics around atm and the threat alone is enough to create awkward decisions for a lot of lists. If it triggers, it can be brutal.

Against squads that don't really stress, the force is still decent... if you can get the mileage, hence Feroph.

But it does circle back round to the hike in TO and what the Reapers role in the squad is. Previously, 7th Sis, TO Feroph was reasonably costed for a coord support ship with considerable nuisance value. Now it's kind of pushing the boundaries of cost/return. Still a pretty horrible thing to deal with but doesn't offer quite as much as it did.

11 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

But it does circle back round to the hike in TO and what the Reapers role in the squad is. Previously, 7th Sis, TO Feroph was reasonably costed for a coord support ship with considerable nuisance value. Now it's kind of pushing the boundaries of cost/return. Still a pretty horrible thing to deal with but doesn't offer quite as much as it did.

This.

Vizier is great for a command platform, and just needs some crew to give him dice support for his own skipped action. As noted, 7th sister is the cheapest Imperial crew with the force - and 5th brother can also sit in a striker's gunner's seat.

Vermeil is a scary gunship, so Juke/Vader is a nice way forwards, giving you something akin to the old Reaper range 2 jam.

Feroph is a great caddy for....anyone, I guess: I can see him working for Palpatine, Vader, Krennic, whoever.

What I'm not sure there's much value for is the generic Scarif Base Pilot. If you're just using it as a cheap co-ordinate platform, Vizier (or Squad Leader Valen Rudor) is cheaper. If you're carrying a valuable crew, it's hard not to justify Feroph's increased durability; the relative cost is little more than a shield upgrade so if it triggers once you've made your money back.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

This.

That.

Agreed. Largely.

Vizier, I'm not convinced on 7th Sister there. He's terribly squishy, so I've always gone cheap as possible and then make him a poor target choice with positioning. Problem is, it renders his gun largely irrelevant. 7Sis cures it a bit, but I'm not sure it's worth it, given he'll still not get much value from it. Once he turns in to start shooting, his time is severely limited. Possible Palp caddy though, just floating on the fringes. The extra 2pt to lob that force where it's needed seems a better deal.

For the SBP. Yeah, I don't see a lot of use. Worth noting, maybe, that with 7Sis crew, it's 50pt of real annoyance to throw into a scrum. Not that it would last very long, if thrown in willy nilly.... Still, lots of things will fit with it nicely at that price.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Can I ask why?

I mean, I get the "cheapest Imperial Force Crew going" bit - is it more than that? Her tractor effect is nice if you can reduce a target's agility then punch it repeatedly with a heavy swarm, but is she really that good given that she's got to be at range 1 against a stressed target?

Or is she more for pairing with Feroph specifically (since the Captain is probably tough enough to survive doing that).

I can see using Vader as essentially 1.0 Jamming Redux being nice.

It's probably that she shuts off the abilities of Ten and Braylen, reducing their agility to 0 and occasionally parking them on rocks. She's less useful against the Dutch flavour of beef though.

EXTENDED:

++Scarif Base Pilot with Palpatine as a 52 point starting piece of a Dark Force Empire squad.

-Run and hide with Palp, boost efficiency across board. (Vader, Grand Inq., 7th Sis, etc.)

-Ailerons and Evade action every turn. Bonus: Make it a 54 point Palp Limo with Electronic Baffle so you can aileron into your reds for extra running options on clutch turns.

HYPERSPACE:

++Scarif Base with Death Troopers for only 47 points. As a single control piece for blocking (you don't care about actions, only about staying right in Poe's face.)

++Sloane Swarm Double Reaper??

Not sure double Reaper is the way to go, but I have done a death trooper Feroph Sloane Sai with mini swarm list that had some nasty teeth

21 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Not sure double Reaper is the way to go, but I have done a death trooper Feroph Sloane Sai with mini swarm list that had some nasty teeth

May I ask you the full list please ?