Hi there!

Quick question about the "Petrify" Rune from the core Descent:

It says after inflicting at least one wound put a Stun token on the enemy, but after that the card states two surges "+1 Stun" . Do the heroes still have to wound the enemy before using their surges to add Stun tokens?

Thanks for any help!

froghorn484 said:

I honestly don't know. My first reaction was that yes, you could apply those surge converted Stuns without causing wounds as long as your attack caused damage (remember, those are entirely different terms). The rules for Stun say after inflicting at least one damage you place a token.

However, that is for Stun attacks, and I don't know if this qualifies since the weapon itself doesn't have Stun listed as one of its attributes. Compare to the Knuckle Dagger which has Bleed as a weapon attribute.

My best guess given the rules and the wording, is that you have to cause a wound to place that first Stun token, and then can spend the surges to place additional Stun tokens, but I could very well be wrong. Hopefully someone can confirm or correct my statements.

As stated on BGG (and edited for clarity):

Yes, I agree that they can add +1 stun token to no stun token.

Even if the wording is vague enough to merit debate over the original intent, it really should be read this way or else "Blinding Light" (the town item introduced in WoD which has the same dice, "Two surges=stun token" and is the cheapest rune available in the game) becomes effectively better than both the Silver and Copper Stunning runes.

I'm of the "if there's doubt, play the way that makes the game work better for you" school of these kinds of questions.

It's really the wording in our heads where my group and I get tripped up since +1 could mean a couple different things.

Does the +1 mean spend two surges to add a stun token to an enemy? Or spend two surges to place an additional Stun token on the enemy? If the latter is the official ruling of +1 then, obviously, the enemy would have to already have a Stun token on it for the heroes to be able to use their surges to add more Stun tokens. Which isn't a problem since the Petrify attack instantly adds one Stun on the enemy if it takes at least one wound.

After talking through it out loud, even though I'm on the heroes side and until I find an official ruling from FFG on what " +" actually means, I think I'm going to go with the ruling that +1 means to place an additional (status effect). If you think about it, +1 Dmg or +1 Range seem to always be that way, too, but since the dice are designed to roll at least one heart and/or one range then there's no question about it.

It's two surges for an additional counter, though I disagree that it's obvious that the attack would have already had to place a stun counter on the enemy to be able to use that ability. I actually read it as you being able to slap a stun counter on the enemy for two surges even if you don't do any damage to the target.

E.g. if you attack a named giant who has eight armor, or something, and the attack is rolled up to have five damage, zero pierce, and three surges, you won't get the automatic free stun for the weapon, because you did zero damage after armor (which is the way the weapon works, contrary to the way the stun ability for monsters works), but you could blow two of your three surges to place the first and only stun token from this attack on the monster.

For reference, the ability on the card:

"If you deal at least 1 wound to a target (after deducting amor), place 1 Stun token on the target.
~: +1 Damage
~~: +1 Stun Token. "

Could you tell me where you found the ruling saying it's two for an additional Stun?

Honestly, the way you read it and the description of the battle vs. the giant you wrote out is how we've been playing it for the past couple adventures, but it just seems like if that's the case the Petrify rune becomes almost, but not quite, overpowered when you take into consideration it's only a silver treasure. You know, being able to lock down at least two monsters (battle action) for every two surges. That's not even including that particular heroes' skill he has of getting two free surges every time he uses a magic attack!

On the other hand, without the ability to add a Stun token for two surges the Petrify rune would almost become useless against stronger monsters so it sort of balances out. If I remember right, the dice rolled for the attack has more range than "hearts" so busting through a stronger monster's armor (Giant, Manticore, Demon, Dragon) to inflict just one point of damage so you can give it that initial Stun token would mean you'd have to get fairly lucky on the roll.

For every 2 surges you add an additional stun token. Rules for stun are as follows (emphasis is mine)

After inflicting at least 1 damage ( before applying the effects of armor ) to a figure with a Stun attack, place a stun token next to the figure. A figure can have more than one stun token next to it at a time. Named monsters cannot be stunned, and master monsters suffer reduced penalties when stunned.

This shows that even if you do no damage after armor, you can still apply your surges to additional stun tokens.

Hmm.

The wording on these cards has always puzzled me somewhat. There's a perfectly good, well-defined ability called "Stun". Why in the name of goodness didn't they just put this ability on the weapons instead of messing around with abilities that add Stun tokens under slightly different circumstances?

Ahem. I don't really have an answer to the questions asked, though I don't think it matters much, in that

* all Stun runes are complete garbage and almost never worth using

* not doing any damage to a monster post-armour is pretty rare

* 2 surges for a Stun token is a horrible deal anyway

* Named monsters, who are about the only targets sufficiently well-protected and tough for any of it to matter, are immune to Stun anyway.

For what it's worth, though, abilities like "+1 damage" don't necessarily require you to roll any damage at all before spending them. Several ranged weapons can roll 0 damage: Skullcracker, for example, and I don't think anyone would argue that this prevents you from spending surges to get damage.

froghorn484 said:

It's not a ruling, it's just what's on the card:

"~~: +1 Stun Token."

With ~ being a surge, and assuming DescentInTheDark.com is right on the description, anyway. +1 Stun Token, like +1 damage, +1 pierce, +1 burn counter, +1 blast, and nearly everything else, can stack. Think of this like you'd think of silver treasure bow that has 2 Pierce on it, and ~: +1 Pierce as well.

This is a rather confusing situation, in the typical Descent fashion. You have an ability, Stun, which adds stuns tokens if you do damage before armor is counted, and then you have this weapon, which adds stun tokens (like the ability Stun) if you do damage after armor is counted. And then you can add extra surges, with accounting for damage at all (just whether or not you've hit) for surges.

Re: Balance, it's like YellowPebble said: it's really a pretty crap weapon, because stun is almost worthless against monsters. Yes, you can lock down two white monsters a turn, but how often do you attack white monsters without killing them? It might start to happen in the upper levels of Road to Legend and Blood Ocean, but in non-campaign mode? Highly unlikely. Red creatures don't get totally locked down by stun, and even then I consider most reds a single-turn kill as well. Furthermore, multiple stun tokens on a creature is completely worthless, as I can't imagine a stunned creature actually surviving a turn. Only the nameds might survive a focused attack, and they're immune, so no big deal.

My players in RtL recently gave up a cursed bow that does ridiculous pierce and damage in favor of one that can add Daze tokens. I was practically jumping for joy, as I - as Overlord - fear damage dealing capabilities far, far more than I fear silly status effects. Though I do miss that automatic curse token.

Well then. I'm sold. Thanks for everyone's help!

Cymbaline said:

Seems like an arbitrary reading to me. I suppose you could read this as "one additional stun token", but it makes at least as much sense to read this as "add one stun token". You need to start with something in order to add more , but it makes perfect sense to have none and then add one.

Cymbaline said:

Just a note: the named giant is immune to the stun effects. Had it been an unnamed master giant or a normal giant it would be affected by the stun.

From page 16 in jitd:

"Named monsters (e.g., Narthak) are unique monsters described in the Quest Guide. Like master monsters, they are represented by the red figures. When the heroes encounter a named monster, the overlord player must explain any different or special stats the monster possesses. The overlord player is not required to reveal any special abilities the monster may have. Named monsters are immune to Stun. In most quests, the hero players receive one or more conquest tokens for slaying a named monster. "

We rule the card to add 1 stun token by spending 2 surges. Thinking the 3 abilities of the rune are separete abilites.