4 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

Scum's biggest chance is that the Ketsu + Old T + Ship archetype certainly didn't get worse, but I still have them ranked #6. I do think that there is a lot of new stuff that could happen in Scum though and I'm secretly pulling for them to come out top dogs.

My take on the list went from 199 to 200 with all the different point changes. I very well might just continue to fly it in higher comp stuff. It really does a massive amount of work.

Results are posted on the first page now. I got 165 responses overall and used all the ones that Survey Monkey gave me for free

I'm kind of surprised how much better folks saw Resistance over First Order.

Imperials, Rebels, and Republic are the clear top-tier. The two classic factions with the most stuff (aces, beef), and the newcomer with the Force (because the force is a 100% fair mechanic).

CIS and Scum are the clear bottom-tier. There's a few diehards, but the weight of the community is against them. Scum still haven't recovered from the major nerfhammer they got back in January. They needed it, but maybe it was too heavy. CIS just had their previously-best ships get nerfed, and got buffs which feel mostly meaningless to the rest.

Resistance and First Order fit the middle ground. I guess Resistance has the rusty old shiny new transport, with new crew with powerful-seeming effects, but the higher ranking baffles me. Seems more like folks guess that someone else will come up with something broken sometime in the future, more than folks having figured out good stuff already. T-70 X-Wings used to be widely thought of as bad, and they didn't get much better. RZ-2 A-Wings (their only *good* ship before) got nerfed. Rey got buffed a bit, but not *that* much. Maybe I just don't believe the hype.

I dunno. Maybe folks are unable to see past existing popular First Order lists (which, to be fair, did get nerfed in the Upsilon), and they did get, but the buffs to the TIE/fo and TIE/sf seem far more extensive than I figured they'd need. Kinda felt like these ships were getting almost slept-on before, and now they got better.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Seems more like folks guess that someone else will come up with something broken sometime in the future, more than folks having figured out good stuff already.

This. There are too many words on the new cards for the average player to make up his mind about it based on theory alone.

This mostly just looks like people expect a repeat of last season

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

This mostly just looks like people expect a repeat of last season

It's funny btw, the end of wave 3 saw a massive decrease in imperials and huge increase in republic. Even more interesting, rebels went down in numbers but their cut fraction went up. At this point, I'm not even sure what "last season" means anymore.

Republic being top tier has far less to do with force than with having a very solid foundation with the Arc/Torrent and with Ole! being stupidly undercosted

Also, CiS is probably far better than people think they just require actual effort to figure out

Finally, gonna go out in a limb and say the difference in power between factions is FAR reduced with the outliers having been nerfed. Ofc people will kneejerk like crazy, as always, but I feel the reality will be far closer to balanced than before

Many of scums best pilots need a big investment in upgrades to be worth playing in a compeitive list. Palob needs extra 18pts for title. Guri and 4-LOM both need extra 10pts for advanced sensors. Even dengar needs his title to become playable. There are still some good value options there... Kavil. Talonbane and Ketsu are all very good. Old Teroch at 56pts. Solid. Fenn is fairly priced but fragile at 68pts.

17 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Many of scums best pilots need a big investment in upgrades to be worth playing in a compeitive list. Palob needs extra 18pts for title. Guri and 4-LOM both need extra 10pts for advanced sensors. Even dengar needs his title to become playable.

which is kinda funny, because it means those cards are still undercosted for those platforms

What pilots are people basing the high rankings for imperials and rebels on? I’ve been out of the loop for awhile.

39 minutes ago, svelok said:

which is kinda funny, because it means those cards are still undercosted for those platforms

I don’t follow. Why does this mean that the needed upgrades cost too little? After all, it’s not like Scum is tearing up the meta...

5 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

I don’t follow. Why does this mean that the needed upgrades cost too little? After all, it’s not like Scum is tearing up the meta...

Svelok is saying that if they’re autoincludes to be competitive, then they’re underpriced because there’s not actually a choice to be made.

This is independent of whether Scum is doing well competitively.

18 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Svelok is saying that if they’re autoincludes to be competitive, then they’re underpriced because there’s not actually a choice to be made.

This is independent of whether Scum is doing well competitively.

Ahh, thank you.

Devil’s advocate, though: doesn’t it actually mean that the base chassis is overpriced, rather than the upgrade necessarily being underpriced? I’m especially thinking of the HWK here, where it might never make sense to take one without the title because the chassis is pants. But if the base cost went down, then you could get to make a more meaningful choice about whether to run one with the title, or two without it (or just one naked one).

Dengar might be the more dramatic example, though. The title is pretty cheap compared to him himself, but the effectiveness difference between 2-dice and 3-dice is so great that it’s an auto-include. But in that same example, it’s not like 2-dice Dengar would be very attractive unless his price went way down; the “choice” would then be to either take a desperately overpriced pilot, or take one plus an additional outlay of points for the title, or to just walk away.

If his title goes up, I bet a lot of people will just walk away unless he becomes a lot cheaper. And that gets into the meta-effectiveness question, too; it provides some kind of a barometer for whether things are priced appropriately for their effectiveness.

5 hours ago, svelok said:

which is kinda funny, because it means those cards are still undercosted for those platforms

I wouldn't say that's exactly the case. Seems to me that some of those upgrades are so integral to the playstyle of these pilots that there isn't a price point at which they won't be taken - more likely we wouldn't see the pilots themselves at all.

8 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Devil’s advocate, though: doesn’t it actually mean that the base chassis is overpriced, rather than the upgrade necessarily being underpriced?

yes, or specifically, both

if Palob is bad with or without title, but the first thing everyone reaches for automatically is moldy crow, then moldy is still too cheap but Palob is too expensive (and on net the combination of the two is also too expensive)

this isn't necessarily a bad thing (underpriced titles can be an incentive, and there's not really anything that makes auto-include worse than auto-leave-naked), I just think it's funny

people are mad about moldy crow being so expensive despite still considering it a must take upgrade

4 hours ago, Pink_Viking said:

I wouldn't say that's exactly the case. Seems to me that some of those upgrades are so integral to the playstyle of these pilots that there isn't a price point at which they won't be taken - more likely we wouldn't see the pilots themselves at all.

I don't believe you

palob, guri, 4lom all offer tremendous value without any upgrades at all - there are prices at which those pilots would be absolutely amazing naked

dengar, uh, is probably just bad period, but conceptually speaking I don't see why no title plus torpedoes couldn't offer a similar amount of value to punishing one if the prices of everything worked out just right (although, see: underpriced titles can be an incentive)

there is a valid argument against raising those cards prices based on the fact that it could drive them too high for other pilots to justify ever taking them or require some next dimensional algorithm for pricing that's way too specific, but that wouldn't change the underlying imbalance, just suggest the alternative imbalance would be worse

(#TeamRemoveGuri'sSensorSlotAndMakeHerLike58Points)

Kind of baffled by the results. Sure Imps didn't get nerfed too hard and they have lots of great options IMO, but Republic got incredibly, MAJORLY buffed, in addition to the advent of the N-1. Everything I4-5 in Republic costs way less than it should, and Anakin was only nerfed to where he should be. Really weird to me that people think that nerfing one pilot by a small amount dumpsters the entire faction, when almost everything else got huge buffs.

Imps still struggle with their low-I generics (looking at you I3 Striker and Bomber and both Interceptors! ). Their named pilots surely make up for it, and they have more passive sensors eligible ships than the other factions, so that's a plus as well.

I'm also curious if Torpedo B-Wings (or even cannon B-Wings) could be worthwhile in the new meta. Remains to be seen.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Republic got incredibly, MAJORLY buffed, in addition to the advent of the N-1. Everything I4-5 in Republic costs way less than it should, and Anakin was only nerfed to where he should be. Really weird to me that people think that nerfing one pilot by a small amount dumpsters the entire faction, when almost everything else got huge buffs.

Agreed. Obi-Wan was really good before. and now he is really good for much cheaper. I expect strong showings from Republic in season 3. moreso with Padme, Ric, and another Anakin joining the fray.

Imperials and Rebels are still in a good spot and really only got dropped from S tier to A tier. Resistance should do well especially with a new ship and drops in the YT1300, StarFortress, and most T70s. CIS and FO are puzzles to me currently. Point changes in those two faction might create some good lists, might not. Scum, however, seems sunk in a whole. Point changes moved some ships from C tier to B tier, but anything B tier stayed at it's current price which hurt.

12 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Point changes moved some ships from C tier to B tier, but anything B tier stayed at it's current price which hurt.

Generally I agree. Though in general, I'd like to see everything in the game be B tier rather than picking and choosing some outstanding outliers. A pipe dream, of course, but still my preference.

24 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Though in general, I'd like to see everything in the game be B tier rather than picking and choosing some outstanding outliers.

Everything B with one or two A pilots per faction sounds reasonable to me.