Should I allow my PCs to target the hyperdrive of opposing ships? What about the Empire targeting the PCs hyperdrive?
If so, would that just be a "called-shot" aim maneuver or something more?
Are there alternate methods of preventing retreat that you might suggest? Because otherwise they can just jump away whenever I want to trap them, and I don't want to use an interdictor.
It would be a called-shot in this instance.
3 minutes ago, MrTInce said:It would be a called-shot in this instance.
Okay, I thought it might be, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the book. Thanks!
21 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Okay, I thought it might be, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the book. Thanks!
Called shots are in the Core Rulebooks, and a method leveraging that to target and disable specific systems is in "Mask of the Pirate Queen."
If you want to allow it or not is up to you though, as allowing called shots to work like that can get out of hand real fast. So it wouldn't be out of bounds to limit called shots with specific damage effects to be limited by range, sil, weapon/attachments used, and other factors. You could actually use limitations to clean up some things and enhance existing options if you wanted.
1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:Called shots are in the Core Rulebooks, and a method leveraging that to target and disable specific systems is in "Mask of the Pirate Queen."
If you want to allow it or not is up to you though, as allowing called shots to work like that can get out of hand real fast. So it wouldn't be out of bounds to limit called shots with specific damage effects to be limited by range, sil, weapon/attachments used, and other factors. You could actually use limitations to clean up some things and enhance existing options if you wanted.
Thanks, I knew the rule about called shots, but I don't have "Mask of the Pirate Queen", so I didn't know if it extended to vehicular combat. I might make it a question of the silhouette of the target (i.e. a Heavy Turbolaser might have a silhouette of 3, while a Quad Laser Turret might have a silhouette of 1) rather than setback dice and then add setback dice according to the angle of the shot and any obstructions between the source of the shot and the target. Or should I add the 2 Setback dice as well?
Also maybe you have to trigger a crit in order to disable the target? Maybe you have to score Advantage equal to the silhouette of the target component (or 1 Triumph) in order to disable it (i.e. 3 Advantage to disable a Heavy Turbolaser, but only 1 to disable a Quad Turbolaser Turret)? It would probably vary as to how much Hull Trauma the Attack would deal, I'm thinking: damage=Base Damage+Success-(Armor-Breach)-silhouette of targeted component.
What do you think?
1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Thanks, I knew the rule about called shots, but I don't have "Mask of the Pirate Queen", so I didn't know if it extended to vehicular combat. I might make it a question of the silhouette of the target (i.e. a Heavy Turbolaser might have a silhouette of 3, while a Quad Laser Turret might have a silhouette of 1) rather than setback dice and then add setback dice according to the angle of the shot and any obstructions between the source of the shot and the target. Or should I add the 2 Setback dice as well?
Also maybe you have to trigger a crit in order to disable the target? Maybe you have to score Advantage equal to the silhouette of the target component (or 1 Triumph) in order to disable it (i.e. 3 Advantage to disable a Heavy Turbolaser, but only 1 to disable a Quad Turbolaser Turret)? It would probably vary as to how much Hull Trauma the Attack would deal, I'm thinking: damage=Base Damage+Success-(Armor-Breach)-silhouette of targeted component.
What do you think?
IIRC MotPQ said something like you have to call the aimed shot per CRB, then hit, and do a minimum of 4 Hull Trauma, and then you also get a Major System Failure Crit, though it only limited it to Sensors, Comms and Shields or something.
Were it me, I'd also define something like you can't component target anything further than Close and less than Sil 5 (though I might be willing to flex for a D-point expenditure). Put simply, small vehicles are so fast and maneuverable that targeting a specific part in combat is pretty much impossible, and vehicle weapons are likewise tuned to hit at all, and not so much hit a specific 1 square meter space on that target.
On the personal scale, I'd also take a long hard look at Range. Here I'd probably limit it to Enc 3 or less weapons at Engaged Range only, unless there were a D-point or another good explanation as to why it's doable (so like a rifle with a scope works in the right situation). This would allow for "I shoot em in the head!" to be limited to either premeditated sniper shots against an appropriately unsuspected or distracted opponent, or up close and personal CQB room clearing. This has the added benefit of making smaller carbine weapons and the Foregrip attachment more desirable in such a scenario, giving players a reason to actually take them.
In all cases you may have to look at fine details if you wish to replicate a specific scene that may not work with these rules, like Poe knocking out all the turbolasers on the dreadnought....
How long are you setting the base time for calculating hyperspace jumps? Canon is wildly inconsistent on this, ranging from near-instantaneous to several hours depending on the source. I recommend setting times and staying consistent. If you are worried that hyperspace jumps are too easy, set the time high enough that several turns of combat or chase will have to happen before the course is computed.
8 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:IIRC MotPQ said something like you have to call the aimed shot per CRB, then hit, and do a minimum of 4 Hull Trauma, and then you also get a Major System Failure Crit, though it only limited it to Sensors, Comms and Shields or something.
Were it me, I'd also define something like you can't component target anything further than Close and less than Sil 5 (though I might be willing to flex for a D-point expenditure). Put simply, small vehicles are so fast and maneuverable that targeting a specific part in combat is pretty much impossible, and vehicle weapons are likewise tuned to hit at all, and not so much hit a specific 1 square meter space on that target.
On the personal scale, I'd also take a long hard look at Range. Here I'd probably limit it to Enc 3 or less weapons at Engaged Range only, unless there were a D-point or another good explanation as to why it's doable (so like a rifle with a scope works in the right situation). This would allow for "I shoot em in the head!" to be limited to either premeditated sniper shots against an appropriately unsuspected or distracted opponent, or up close and personal CQB room clearing. This has the added benefit of making smaller carbine weapons and the Foregrip attachment more desirable in such a scenario, giving players a reason to actually take them.
In all cases you may have to look at fine details if you wish to replicate a specific scene that may not work with these rules, like Poe knocking out all the turbolasers on the dreadnought....
What does CRB mean? It makes sense that you can't target under Silhouette 5 because with Silhouette 3 and 4 the defender picks the defense zone hit.
I guess it makes sense that you have to do at least 4 Hull Trauma, but I disagree with you on the range at which it is allowed because the core rulebook specifically states that range doesn't really matter with vehicle scale weapons because of the targeting computers. I also would not give the ship a critical hit, because then it is too easy to stack up crits, I would just use the crit in practice but not add the +10 crit modifier.
At personal scale I would be fine with called shot at any range within the range of the weapon (but probably not past short with ranged-light), but not with weapons that have the inaccurate quality as they, by definition, are not accurate enough to hit a small target at range. However I would probably adjudicate it on a case-by-case basis depending on the scenario and maybe add to the difficulty penalty depending on the situation (i.e. No, you can't shoot the scope off the stormtrooper's E-11 from long range with a Blaster Pistol using Sniper Shot, but yes, you can shoot the deflector shield generator off the Bounty Hunters hip using a Blaster rifle with a scope from Long Range).
8 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:How long are you setting the base time for calculating hyperspace jumps? Canon is wildly inconsistent on this, ranging from near-instantaneous to several hours depending on the source. I recommend setting times and staying consistent. If you are worried that hyperspace jumps are too easy, set the time high enough that several turns of combat or chase will have to happen before the course is computed.
I would say you can calculate it in 1 round, but you can't enter hyperspace until that same initiative slot has come up again (i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,(6),7,8,9 - 1,3,(6),7,9) and the whole time between calculation and jumping, anyone within scanning range knows you are charging your hyperdrive. But 1 Threat could be spent to extend it by 1 slot each, and 1 Advantage could be spent to decrease calculation time by 1 slot each.
I don't want to hamper them too much with making hyperspace jumps, because sometimes letting them escape without me having to make the enemies back off would be useful, I just want the ability to stop them from retreating when necessary. But of course I would modify this depending on the situation (i.e. Oh, you want to make the Kessel run in 11 Parsecs? That will take you at least 3 rounds to calculate). I have an encounter planned where the PCs are ambushed a (custom) corvette with more weapons than a ship its size has any business wielding, but several of them are retractable, so the fight looks winnable so if they stay and fight for a little bit, it gives me time to disable their hyperdrive before breaking out the Quad Assault Concussion Missile batteries (yes, Quad Assault Concussion Missile batteries) and ordering them to stand down.
ambushed *BY* a (custom) corvette
41 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:What does CRB mean?
Core Rule Book.
41 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:I guess it makes sense that you have to do at least 4 Hull Trauma, but I disagree with you on the range at which it is allowed because the core rulebook specifically states that range doesn't really matter with vehicle scale weapons because of the targeting computers. I also would not give the ship a critical hit, because then it is too easy to stack up crits, I would just use the crit in practice but not add the +10 crit modifier.
You're call. I'm basing my angle on my experience with real-world weapon systems. How things work for you in a galaxy far far away is of course open to interpretation.
41 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:At personal scale I would be fine with called shot at any range within the range of the weapon
This is a nitty-gritty call I made based on experience with other systems and campaigns in addition to experience with small arms. If you say, allow called headshots to do more damage or something, the players will tend to over-use it for the insta-kill over actual practicality. Limiting called shots to very close ranges (or specific scenarios that would logically allow them) makes sense as hitting a person is hard enough at any range. So this makes called shots good for close up room clearing, or long range assassination, over general purpose killing. And, like minion groups staying at engaged range and blast weapons, limiting the Enc of the weapon would provide opprotunities for carbines and subrepeating blasters to be a good choice over the thing with the highest damage rating.
Edited by Ghostofman45 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:Core Rule Book.
You're call. I'm basing my angle on my experience with real-world weapon systems. How things work for you in a galaxy far far away is of course open to interpretation.
This is a nitty-gritty call I made based on experience with other systems and campaigns in addition to experience with small arms. If you say, allow called headshots to do more damage or something, the players will tend to over-use it for the insta-kill over actual practicality. Limiting called shots to very close ranges (or specific scenarios that would logically allow them) makes sense as hitting a person is hard enough at any range. So this makes called shots good for close up room clearing, or long range assassination, over general purpose killing. And, like minion groups staying at engaged range and blast weapons, limiting the Enc of the weapon would provide opprotunities for carbines and subrepeating blasters to be a good choice over the thing with the highest damage rating.
You make a good case, and I agree with you that it is probably more realistic, and I would defer to you on the subject of real-world weapons as I (unfortunately) have not had any personal experience with small arms (and definitely not artillery
). But I think that engaged is far too close, because that is within grappling range so I would imagine that there must be a middle ground. Also in westerns and such (I know, not high realism, but Star Wars isn't really either) in a Gunslinging situation (at the Short range band typically) you would see the guy shoot a gun out of his opponent's hand. I definitely agree with you on the subject of headshots, but I am not sure how to counter the overuse/abuse of them. I think a gentlemen's agreement between players and the GM would be enough often times to counter the overuse of headshots.
I also agree with you on the specific situation clause and so that is what I was saying regarding GM judgement being a necessity regarding whether or not called shot is allowed.
There are also other reasons to pick lower powered weapons such as lower Encumberance, and lower price. Also conceal-ability and role-play.
3 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:I would say you can calculate it in 1 round, but you can't enter hyperspace until that same initiative slot has come up again (i.e. 1,2,3,4,5,(6),7,8,9 - 1,3,(6),7,9) and the whole time between calculation and jumping, anyone within scanning range knows you are charging your hyperdrive. But 1 Threat could be spent to extend it by 1 slot each, and 1 Advantage could be spent to decrease calculation time by 1 slot each.
I don't want to hamper them too much with making hyperspace jumps, because sometimes letting them escape without me having to make the enemies back off would be useful, I just want the ability to stop them from retreating when necessary. But of course I would modify this depending on the situation (i.e. Oh, you want to make the Kessel run in 11 Parsecs? That will take you at least 3 rounds to calculate). I have an encounter planned where the PCs are ambushed a (custom) corvette with more weapons than a ship its size has any business wielding, but several of them are retractable, so the fight looks winnable so if they stay and fight for a little bit, it gives me time to disable their hyperdrive before breaking out the Quad Assault Concussion Missile batteries (yes, Quad Assault Concussion Missile batteries) and ordering them to stand down.
I would think 1 turn is too quick. Galaxy Mapper halves the base time, so it needs to be at a minimum 2 turns. I would still suggest going with a base of 2 turns per dice of Difficulty as a minimum.
31 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:I would think 1 turn is too quick. Galaxy Mapper halves the base time, so it needs to be at a minimum 2 turns. I would still suggest going with a base of 2 turns per dice of Difficulty as a minimum.
I agree with you somewhat, but I'd say probably 1 round per die of difficulty except for the time crunch die addition. Because a big issue would be if I want to chase them with an ISD and they are in a corvette, they do not stand a chance. Say it is a hard check (3 purple), that would be 6 rounds during which they would have to survive the firepower and TIEs of an IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER! Meaning that there is an entirely negligible chance that they will take any damage whatsoever. Right.
The long and short of it is I don't think you should make it take so long because then it becomes almost impossible for you to send anything large against the PCs, because either the enemies have to let them escape, or the PCs die. And that sort of takes the wind out of your sails when you want to send Darth Vader after the PCs but he shows up in a Vigil-class corvette.
19 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:I agree with you somewhat, but I'd say probably 1 round per die of difficulty except for the time crunch die addition. Because a big issue would be if I want to chase them with an ISD and they are in a corvette, they do not stand a chance. Say it is a hard check (3 purple), that would be 6 rounds during which they would have to survive the firepower and TIEs of an IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER! Meaning that there is an entirely negligible chance that they will take any damage whatsoever. Right.
The long and short of it is I don't think you should make it take so long because then it becomes almost impossible for you to send anything large against the PCs, because either the enemies have to let them escape, or the PCs die. And that sort of takes the wind out of your sails when you want to send Darth Vader after the PCs but he shows up in a Vigil-class corvette.
You spend those turns in a chase, not in combat (unless you're crazy). Ideally the enemy is out of range for most of that time.
1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:You spend those turns in a chase, not in combat (unless you're crazy). Ideally the enemy is out of range for most of that time.
What if they aren't (remember: an ISDs longest ranged guns are long range)? Maybe you are in short range when your stealth plan goes awry? Maybe you are captured like the Tantive IV but recover your ship and are trying to escape? There are a myriad of reasons why you would not be out of range, and I didn't even mention failing the chase check.
2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:What if they aren't (remember: an ISDs longest ranged guns are long range)? Maybe you are in short range when your stealth plan goes awry? Maybe you are captured like the Tantive IV but recover your ship and are trying to escape? There are a myriad of reasons why you would not be out of range, and I didn't even mention failing the chase check.
Then perhaps failure is an option. The Empire should be scary and competent, not the buffoons Rebels portrayed them as being.
14 hours ago, HappyDaze said:Then perhaps failure is an option. The Empire should be scary and competent, not the buffoons Rebels portrayed them as being.
Failure SHOULD be an option, but not a forgone conclusion. If they fail the check they're probably screwed anyway.
21 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:But I think that engaged is far too close, because that is within grappling range
Wait till you get into the advanced rules. Engaged (indeed all banding) is flexible and a bit larger than you think. A dozen Stormtroopers can be Engaged and not be in a Group Hug formation. So by comparison a shoot out at Engaged range could be point blank, or within the same room. Again, I'm seeing a room clearing scenario where you're super close anyway, so aiming for a small target with a small maneuverable weapon rapidly is viable.
21 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:a Gunslinging situation (at the Short range band typically) you would see the guy shoot a gun out of his opponent's hand.
This is an exception to the "rule," perfect for asking for a D-point expenditure to attempt it.
But again, just my thoughts...
You make a good case, but I think so much of it comes down to the situation and GM judgement that it is too difficult to have a one size fits all rule for it.
My perception (and I believe it is backed up by the book) is that Engaged range is up to around 2 yards or so, in reach of vibro-swords etc. and that short range is up to around 10-15 yards away. So they don't have to be shoulder to shoulder, but you are more or less within reach of the thing you in relative position to.
P.S. how did you get the custom profile pic?
47 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:My perception (and I believe it is backed up by the book) is that Engaged range is up to around 2 yards or so, in reach of vibro-swords etc. and that short range is up to around 10-15 yards away. So they don't have to be shoulder to shoulder, but you are more or less within reach of the thing you in relative position to.
In the core... yeah more or less... but later supplements and such have additional options that require Engaged to be able to also reach out to like 7 or 8 yards, sometimes farther. This goes on with the narrative requirements of Melee combat. If you keep the Engaged range that close, melee fights (including lightsaber duels) become two guys hitting each other till one falls down. Allow some extra flex space in there and now they can move about the room for free, allowing that to fold into narrative results and such and create more interesting narrative appropriate to the setting.
When you cross reference that with vehicle/starship combat, it falls even more into place. Starfighter dogfights are essentially just a modified form of melee combat, requiring Close range to actually be pretty dang big...
Okay, I don't have whatever splat books you are talking about, I would guess they're from Force and Destiny. But with the speeds and the weapon ranges Close range is, by necessity, quite large.
One thing that may have caused confusion regarding the size of engaged (I don't know what supplements you are talking about, so I'm not saying you are confused, I'm just surmising) is that if a story scripting thing says that an explosion covers X area, it may have been planetary scale ordnance such as a concussion missile (the blast radius of which extends to short range in personal scale) or another explosive charge such as those statted in Fully Operational.
1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Okay, I don't have whatever splat books you are talking about, I would guess they're from Force and Destiny. But with the speeds and the weapon ranges Close range is, by necessity, quite large.
One thing that may have caused confusion regarding the size of engaged (I don't know what supplements you are talking about, so I'm not saying you are confused, I'm just surmising) is that if a story scripting thing says that an explosion covers X area, it may have been planetary scale ordnance such as a concussion missile (the blast radius of which extends to short range in personal scale) or another explosive charge such as those statted in Fully Operational.
I'm referencing the squad rules as presented in the AoR GM kit (and to an extent Rise of the Separatists though there's some changes that aren't really clear how they mix with the previous version), but when you really dig deep into minion grouping in the Cores it shows up there too, though not as obviously. Minion groups don't have a capped size, but really only function properly when a group is engaged to one another. While it's uncommon you'll have a minion group over 3 or 4 you can have them as long as you like (though somewhere around 10-12 seems to be the assumed top based on the squad rules). Having something like 10 guys all crammed into a space where any one of them is no less that 2 yards from another is going to be pretty wonky, so by extension you have to bulge out Engaged to fit them in a reasonable manner.
Weird things like this that do but don't make sense pop up a lot in this system. Its a movie simulator, not a world simulator, so there's a lot of situations where it's less about "how many meters apart at they" and more "are they close enough that the director wants them all to be affected by the same thing in this scene."
3 hours ago, Ghostofman said:I'm referencing the squad rules as presented in the AoR GM kit (and to an extent Rise of the Separatists though there's some changes that aren't really clear how they mix with the previous version), but when you really dig deep into minion grouping in the Cores it shows up there too, though not as obviously. Minion groups don't have a capped size, but really only function properly when a group is engaged to one another. While it's uncommon you'll have a minion group over 3 or 4 you can have them as long as you like (though somewhere around 10-12 seems to be the assumed top based on the squad rules). Having something like 10 guys all crammed into a space where any one of them is no less that 2 yards from another is going to be pretty wonky, so by extension you have to bulge out Engaged to fit them in a reasonable manner.
Weird things like this that do but don't make sense pop up a lot in this system. Its a movie simulator, not a world simulator, so there's a lot of situations where it's less about "how many meters apart at they" and more "are they close enough that the director wants them all to be affected by the same thing in this scene."
That does make some sense, but they would not all have to be within a circle that is 4 yards in diameter, they would each be within 2 yards of each other, in ring-around-the-rosy if you have 10 people, the circle may be large enough that #1 and #6 aren't within 2 yards of each other, but #1 is within engaged of #10 and #2, #2 is engaged with #1 and #3, #3 is engaged with #2 and #4, etc. when I use Minion groups (not for mass combat or anything, just as opponents) they are typically 2-4 members, and they all stand in a loose formation in an area about 4 yards in diameter. I split up larger units into smaller minion groups and sometimes one minion group is engaged with another, but that simply means that there is less than 2 yards between the two (4 yard diameter) areas containing minion groups, not that they are all within a 4 yard diameter circle. so if one minion group is hit by a grenade, the other one isn't necessarily going to be hit by the blast quality.
I have taken a lot of what you have said into mind regarding when to allow "Called Shot," however, I still want to maintain the liberty to use it so I don't want to set hard limits, that way I and the players have more freedom as to when it is allowed/used. So even if I disagree with you on a specific point, it doesn't always mean I think that you are wrong or that it is an invalid point, just that I don't want to sign it into law.
Another thing to consider is engaged is basically close enough to make melee strikes. What people who have never been in a melee fight don't recognize is close enough for melee combat is a WAY larger area than people think. like in a couple seconds I can cross 30 or 40 feet and make multiple strikes. so really engaged is a bigger area than you think.