I'm ofcours talking about these:

I never, ever, ever found any use for them. Sure, on theory 2 clues are nice to pass a horror check if you really need to, or to stockpile clues against the ancient one, but on reality I never used any of them not once. These are the only skills in the game I think don't make you better. They have a nice effect if you need them, but you never truly do. Am I missing something? Are these usable on a regular basis?

I don't mean to speak for everyone, but I think those are generally regarded as the worst skills, yes. But I guess you can't turn down a guaranteed success when in a bind.

I agree that these are not the best to get; on the other hand Strong Will has proved useful when it was absolutely necessary to pass a horror check (taking out a Shan for instance). For that matter, 10 clues + Fisticuffs gives you a guaranteed way to take out the Dunwich Horror.

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but aren't skills handed out more or less randomly? I always saw them as a situational upgrade. They might be weaker in the bunch, but as I don't play and aim for anything in particular, and rather let the game deal me the chips that it may... what does it hurt to have these in here?

Plus, as they are all from Dunwich, they are optional if you really don't like them..

I don't care too much for these particular skills either. Especially since a skill is supposed to be such a rare, substantial boon. Getting one of these is a rather big let-down, or at least in my opinion. I understand that all skills are situational, but these are even more so. When I get my mitts on a copy of Dunwich, I might very well leave these guys out.

If they were, "add another success for one clue and as many more for two clues each" or simply, "add at most one success for one clue" they would be up to speed with the others, if I can say so.

I don't find those skills that bad. Right now I can think of several occasions where I would have survived an otherwise deadly encounter, if I had them at hand (game against Yog-Sothoth where three of my characters were devoured while being lost in time & space because of monster attacks in an other world). Surely they don't necessarily give you a great benefit, but I wouldn't call them worse than let's say "Sharpshooter" for example. It all depends on the situation...

For a spellcaster, I'd rather have any skill in the game other than these.

For a non-spellcaster, the only skill that sucks more than these is "reroll spell checks" (or one of these that let u spend 2 clues to add success to a spell check)

I think these skills are best used when cursed. Let's look at the odds (rounded off):

Using 2 clues when cursed:
0 successes = 69%
1 success = 28%
2 successes = 3%

Using 2 clues when normal:
0 successes = 44%
1 success = 44%
2 successes = 11%

Using 2 clues when normal:
0 successes = 25%
1 success = 50%
2 successes = 25%

I think in the end, the percentages show this skill is not too bad. If you need 1 more success and only have two clues, I think this skill would be the preferred way to go. 2 clues for 100% chance of one success as opposed to 31% if cursed. The 55% chance of getting at least one while normal is better odds then the "cost" of 50% success per clue with the skill, but again, the skill is guaranteed. The only time I wouldn't use the skill is if I were blessed, because the odds per clue are the same as the skills "cost" per clue and so it's a coin flip that you might only need one clue total.

Where the skill becomes less desirable is when you need more than one success. Especially if you're blessed, you can definitely save clues in the long run. I think being cursed is the only time you'll always want to use this skill. While normal, I think it's a coin toss whether you want to spend two per guarantee or try to get more than one success for every two clues on your own.

Of course, the thing with odds are, anything less than 100% success can always fail miserably.

DoomTurtle said:

Tell me about it. I once rolld eight dice and didn't score a single success (I wasn't cursed nor blessed). What were the odds of that happening?

kroen said:

Haha, my brother had something like that happening the other night. But it were far more than eight dice. He was playing Dexter Drake and went for a crucible spell. He had eight or nine dice and another friend used Mandy Thompsons skill to allow him a re-roll. So with about 16 dice, he had no five or six... Talking about odds

I don't think these Skills are any better or worse than the others.

All Skills have a certain level of conditional-ness: you can have the best Fight Skill there is, and get devoured by a failed Luck Check. I know Conceal once saved the entire game by allowing me to not lower Jim's Speed in order to reach the last Gate with the Star Vampire that I had little chance of defeating in combat. Sure, that was just one time, but you could say "that one time" about ANY card.

But I've also found that players have a LOT of faith in their dice. I know players that would NEVER take a two-clue 100% over a one-clue 33%; they thrive on the life-or-death gamble, treating that saved Clue like it's a Fabergé Egg. (These players HATE George.) These players would rather have the full reroll Special Check Skills over the two-clue guarantee. I just don't trust my dice like that; I am a zealous follower of Murphy's Law, especially during Arkham Horror. So I'm probably more open to using these skills than most.

So while I suppose I could agree that these skills are "less favored" than several other Skills, I would NOT agree with the Thread Title: these Skills do NOT "really suck". As to whether one is "missing something", I'm not qualified to answer; I am frequently retarded, often without prior notice.

23 dice with no successes is my record. Whoopee!

I'd take the reroll over these any day of the week. Clues are priceless in this game. I will not spend them unless I absolutely have to. I hate those skills because they ONLY function if you spend clues.

I don't think these skills are particurlarly useless. Think Rex Murphy: Cursed, and can gather up huge numbers of clue tokens. He's perfect for this skill! But other than that, it's lousy.

AshDiamond said:

I'd rather Rex collect 10 clues (really easy for him and he starts with 3) and complete his personal story. No more curse, and and an awesome ability. But if you're not playig with personal stories I agree I wouldn't mind Rex having them.

kroen said:

Yibb-Tstll says "Hi!" as well.

I will never play Rex with Yibb Tstll (I play random ivnestigators but I draw 1 more and choose which ones I want)

AshDiamond said:

Roland with Fisticuffs is a killing machine. Luke ain't too bad either. Heaven forbid if Patrice is anyone's "belt-feeder".

kroen said:

you mean the probability ? (I think odd is a technically something different, it is a ratio of probabilities) (2/3)^8 = 0.039. On 100 such rolls, this would happen about 4 times on average (not so improbable).

As for the 16 dice, it ends up just squaring this, = 0.0015. Considering the total number of rolls rolled, it may end up being not so unlikely to observe this event in the community.

Importantly, any specific roll die1: 4; die2: 6, etc... (not families of roll like 2 success on 5 dices) is as rare as any other one.

However, remember that once rollled, the probability of the event becomes 1.

Tibs said:

If I recall correctly, at one World of Darkness round we had something like 31 dice without a single success. And the odds are alike to the ones of Arkham Horror. This was pretty **** messed up.

I can see why peopled would rather try and reroll their dice. Chance is a big part of the game and without it it wouldn't be as chilling as it is. There is something "too safe" about those skills. I blew loads of clue tokens by saying to myself "Try just one more, you will pass this check" and it wouldn't have been as cool if I could have just said "Well, pay two and pass it without any risk". Those skills may render the game rather boring, I can accept that, but as I said, if you have to pass a check to save yourself from instant death, those skilly may be heaven sent...

Dam said:

If you're out to give Rex a hard time on purpose, then you might as well throw in the Dark Pharaoh herald. And yes, he officially loses stamina :-O

All other games, yes it would be nicer to get the clues to pass his story.

I don't like how the use of these skills is contingent on having clues to spare. The other skills can be used when you're in a desperate situation. These, not so much

i like the evade one most. this may sound stupid, but i don't think so why? You don't need to evade that often. But if you need to evade (you need to reach some location, or the monster is way too strong), it's good to know you can do it for sure. The other 3 skills are not that good. You want to use them a lot, and spending 2 clue tokens every turn isn;t possible.

Yeah I hate these skills too. I just do not play with them period. The main problem I have with these skills is that compared to the normal + 1 something skills from the base set for the same 2 clue tokens you will usually get +5 additional dice which is almost always good for 1 success (Just because I know someone will chime in about how bad their rolling is I tried rolling 5 dice ten times in a row just now and only 1 time did I not get a single success. This does not actually mean anything but now at least I can "claim" I tested it).

However, for the base arkham + skills you do not need to spend the clue tokens all at once and you can get multiple successes which is most relevant for combat checks. The 2 must spend skills just seem so awful compared to this.