9 minutes ago, AceWing said:

What? An ace is an I6, double-repositioning ship with three attack dice and, usually, three defense dice.

The only aces I can think of right now are Soontir Fel, Fenn Rau, and Poe Dameron. Kylo Ren and Obi-Wan Kenobi are very close to being aces. Darth Vader is an ace as long as he has Afterburners charges.

A category that only allows for 4 pilots is way to restrictive... call them super-aces or something, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty more "ace pilots" in the game.

14 minutes ago, AceWing said:

An ace is an I6, double-repositioning ship with three attack dice and, usually, three defense dice.

Only one of these things is pilot dependent. The rest are ingrained into the ship they are flying. This definition of what makes an "Ace" is disturbingly narrow minded...

10 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Only one of these things is pilot dependent. The rest are ingrained into the ship they are flying. This definition of what makes an "Ace" is disturbingly narrow minded...

Pilot abilities, beyond repositioning, have nothing to do with whether a ship is an ace. "Disturbingly" is pretty melodramatic. Haha

31 minutes ago, AceWing said:

What? An ace is an I6, double-repositioning ship with three attack dice and, usually, three defense dice.

The only aces I can think of right now are Soontir Fel, Fenn Rau, and Poe Dameron. Kylo Ren and Obi-Wan Kenobi are very close to being aces. Darth Vader is an ace as long as he has Afterburners charges.

Fenn can't double-reposition, so our definition is off to a great start so far.

18 minutes ago, AceWing said:

Pilot abilities, beyond repositioning, have nothing to do with whether a ship is an ace. "Disturbingly" is pretty melodramatic. Haha

"Ace" implies the pilot. Your definition is centered on the ship. To you the only reason Soontir Fel is an "Ace" in your mind is because of the platform he flies and by your own presentation he would not be one if he were in a, for example, TIE/ag Aggressor. To you it is the machine that has value, not the person flying it beyond their Initiative. The pilot means nothing, only the machine... That is disturbing.

19 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

Fenn can't double-reposition, so our definition is off to a great start so far.

You're right. He's probably not an ace in 2.0 although he was in 1.0.

10 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

"Ace" implies the pilot. Your definition is centered on the ship. To you the only reason Soontir Fel is an "Ace" in your mind is because of the platform he flies and by your own presentation he would not be one if he were in a, for example, TIE/ag Aggressor. To you it is the machine that has value, not the person flying it beyond their Initiative. The pilot means nothing, only the machine... That is disturbing.

Ok

How about we agree that the definition of "ace" is pretty ambiguous especially in an the context of an Xwing game?

My personal definition of "ace" (in XWTMG) is "a 50+ of high initiative, high repositioning that doesn't sacrifice mods while doing so but also costs a **** load relative to its chassis"

So Wedge? No. He's an initiative killing ****, but not an "ace". His power is more being stupidly efficient for how good he is at I killing.

Soontir is more like an "ace", cause he'll get blown the **** up otherwise. Ditto Rau, since he's REALLY expensive (even if he can be a bit of a brainless, die spiking *** at times)

But the most EXTREME aces are the Delta-bs. Punchy, absurdly mobile, and WAAAAY too expensive to risk in a straight dice off

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

How about we agree that the definition of "ace" is pretty ambiguous especially in an the context of an Xwing game?

My personal definition of "ace" (in XWTMG) is "a 50+ of high initiative, high repositioning that doesn't sacrifice mods while doing so)

So Wedge? No. He's an initiative killing ****, but not an "ace". His power is more being stupidly efficient for how good he is at I killing.

Soontir is more like an "ace", cause he'll get blown the **** up otherwise. Ditto Rau, since he's REALLY expensive (even if he can be a bit of a brainless, die spiking *** at times)

But the most EXTREME aces are the Delta-bs. Punchy, absurdly mobile, and WAAAAY too expensive to risk in a straight dice off

Nope. The 'community' has spoken, and given the official definition.

Double-repositioning at I-6 only.


Literally only 2 ships in the entire game are Aces, then. Which definitely makes it a category worth having.


Vote on whether Poe or Soontir are the best Aces in the game.

4 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

Nope. The 'community' has spoken, and given the official definition.

Double-repositioning at I-6 only.


Literally only 2 ships in the entire game are Aces, then. Which definitely makes it a category worth having.


Vote on whether Poe or Soontir are the best Aces in the game.

Anakin + Poe + Soontir = 2

Back to answering the question, by faction, here are the good ace deals:

Rebels: Jake Ferrel. Let's face it, if you're going for aces, you probably aren't flying rebels. Sabine is close with her prepositioning, but I3 means she's heavily reliant on prediction and blocking for true ace play.

Empire: Soontir Fel, Named Strikers, Whisper, Echo. Even with afterburners, Vader can't reliably dodge arcs, but he hits like a hammer

Scum: Guri, Fenn, Old T, Kad Solus. None of the other starvipers quite fit because of their reliance on linked actions and lack of blue hard turns.

Resistance: Any RZ-2. With the ability to engage while running, even the low I pilots are able to get out of likely arcs without forfeiting firepower. Black One can turn Poe or Nien into an extraordinary ace temporarily.

First Order: Kylo. Blackout is an honorable mention, but double silencers hasn't yet emerged as a meta power and Kylo is too much of an upgrade over Blackout. Scorch gets an honorable mention as a cheap filler, but the lack of linked actions or boosts keep him from reaching pocket ace status.

Republic: Any aethersprite, really. Stressless bonus reposition is phenomenal. Anakin is clearly the best, but don't underestimate CLT Obi or Ploon as a cheap ship your opponent can't afford to ignore.

CIS: Nothing yet. The belbullab has the statline to make it a consideration, but it's too important currently in CIS to keep all guns on target so you don't lose by attrition. When we get their weird nautilus ship, cagey aces might become a viable CIS strategy. Maybe.

14 minutes ago, hargleblarg said:

Back to answering the question, by faction, here are the good ace deals:

Rebels: Jake Ferrel. Let's face it, if you're going for aces, you probably aren't flying rebels. Sabine is close with her prepositioning, but I3 means she's heavily reliant on prediction and blocking for true ace play.

Empire: Soontir Fel, Named Strikers, Whisper, Echo. Even with afterburners, Vader can't reliably dodge arcs, but he hits like a hammer

Scum: Guri, Fenn, Old T, Kad Solus. None of the other starvipers quite fit because of their reliance on linked actions and lack of blue hard turns.

Resistance: Any RZ-2. With the ability to engage while running, even the low I pilots are able to get out of likely arcs without forfeiting firepower. Black One can turn Poe or Nien into an extraordinary ace temporarily.

First Order: Kylo. Blackout is an honorable mention, but double silencers hasn't yet emerged as a meta power and Kylo is too much of an upgrade over Blackout. Scorch gets an honorable mention as a cheap filler, but the lack of linked actions or boosts keep him from reaching pocket ace status.

Republic: Any aethersprite, really. Stressless bonus reposition is phenomenal. Anakin is clearly the best, but don't underestimate CLT Obi or Ploon as a cheap ship your opponent can't afford to ignore.

CIS: Nothing yet. The belbullab has the statline to make it a consideration, but it's too important currently in CIS to keep all guns on target so you don't lose by attrition. When we get their weird nautilus ship, cagey aces might become a viable CIS strategy. Maybe.

Nice summary. Probably the format I should have used in my example to start this thread and disregarded initiative.

Scum has Talonbane who when upgraded with afterburners and predator can do some excellent work. Not nearly as nimble as a fangfighter but the bonus repositioning from afterburners makes him scary good.

10 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

Nope. The 'community' has spoken, and given the official definition.

Double-repositioning at I-6 only.


Literally only 2 ships in the entire game are Aces, then. Which definitely makes it a category worth having.


Vote on whether Poe or Soontir are the best Aces in the game.

You can define ace however you want, bud. Just because I don't consider it an ace doesn't mean you have to get bent out of shape.

That said, player skill being equal, an I5 "ace" with the same abilities won't beat an I6 ace heads up. What makes the I5 an ace then? To me, an ace is what I described because it wins against all lower initiative ships heads up, player skill being equal. The question then isn't which ones are most cost effective because they're all rare and should cost a lot. The question is if you need that effect in your list.

1 minute ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Nice summary. Probably the format I should have used in my example to start this thread and disregarded initiative.

Scum has Talonbane who when upgraded with afterburners and predator can do some excellent work. Not nearly as nimble as fangfighter but the bonus repositioning from afterburners makes him scary good.

Talonbane is really interesting, and yeah, afterburners makes him really exciting, but at that price you can get Old T, which seems really unfair to our favorite black sun fighter. Lack of linked actions and a miserable dial (why can't we have that 1 straight) don't help either.

4 minutes ago, hargleblarg said:

Talonbane is really interesting, and yeah, afterburners makes him really exciting, but at that price you can get Old T, which seems really unfair to our favorite black sun fighter. Lack of linked actions and a miserable dial (why can't we have that 1 straight) don't help either.

yep. Talonbane was hoping for some love from FFG at last points adjustment other than... extra illicit slot and two modification slots. Talonbane and all the Khiraxz fighters would have loved something like... "reduce the cost of one modification by 4pts down to a minimum of 1pt"

38 minutes ago, President Jyrgunkarrd said:

Nope. The 'community' has spoken, and given the official definition.

Double-repositioning at I-6 only.


Literally only 2 ships in the entire game are Aces, then. Which definitely makes it a category worth having.


Vote on whether Poe or Soontir are the best Aces in the game.

1. The majority of people include i5 too, you're taking the harshest restrictions proposed and ignoring the other definitions provided.

2. Jedi exist.

31 minutes ago, hargleblarg said:

Back to answering the question, by faction, here are the good ace deals:

Rebels: Jake Ferrel. Let's face it, if you're going for aces, you probably aren't flying rebels. Sabine is close with her prepositioning, but I3 means she's heavily reliant on prediction and blocking for true ace play.

Empire: Soontir Fel, Named Strikers, Whisper, Echo. Even with afterburners, Vader can't reliably dodge arcs, but he hits like a hammer

Scum: Guri, Fenn, Old T, Kad Solus. None of the other starvipers quite fit because of their reliance on linked actions and lack of blue hard turns.

Resistance: Any RZ-2. With the ability to engage while running, even the low I pilots are able to get out of likely arcs without forfeiting firepower. Black One can turn Poe or Nien into an extraordinary ace temporarily.

First Order: Kylo. Blackout is an honorable mention, but double silencers hasn't yet emerged as a meta power and Kylo is too much of an upgrade over Blackout. Scorch gets an honorable mention as a cheap filler, but the lack of linked actions or boosts keep him from reaching pocket ace status.

Republic: Any aethersprite, really. Stressless bonus reposition is phenomenal. Anakin is clearly the best, but don't underestimate CLT Obi or Ploon as a cheap ship your opponent can't afford to ignore.

CIS: Nothing yet. The belbullab has the statline to make it a consideration, but it's too important currently in CIS to keep all guns on target so you don't lose by attrition. When we get their weird nautilus ship, cagey aces might become a viable CIS strategy. Maybe.

Under Rebels, I will continue to defend Wedge as being able to act as an Ace, his natural i6 and the ability to boost + focus is quite good. Oh, and Super Luke. Both get Regen, which helps fix the 2 agility.

Vader Can take Super, as can the GI, which can also fill the ace slot.

For Resistance, Poe is an ace long term - two actions per turn is pretty swell

Other than that, I think you summed it up well.

32 minutes ago, AceWing said:

You can define ace however you want, bud. Just because I don't consider it an ace doesn't mean you have to get bent out of shape.

That said, player skill being equal, an I5 "ace" with the same abilities won't beat an I6 ace heads up. What makes the I5 an ace then? To me, an ace is what I described because it wins against all lower initiative ships heads up, player skill being equal. The question then isn't which ones are most cost effective because they're all rare and should cost a lot. The question is if you need that effect in your list.

Player skill being equal, Whisper at I-5 has a trivial time outmaneuvering Soontir or Poe

No, she doesn't.

CiS definitely has an ace

It's called NUMBERS!

Meh, in Edition 2 I see the term “Ace” as being applied to any single Limited pilot that is of an Initiative above that of talent-generics, barring a couple of exceptions. So *generally* Initiative 4 or higher, and named.

”Double Repositioning” is a rarity now if the ship isn’t built for it, and usually achieved with something like Supernatural Reflexes at hideous pricing. I’m also a firm believer that a lot of the older 1st ed player definitions don’t hold ground in 2nd, including the old rock/paper/scissor ideal of jouster - arc-dodger - turret. There seems to be far more diversity, from swarmy-jousters, to bombers, to alpha-striking ordnance boats, to F-22-esque high performance fighters (Defenders, E-Wing, Starviper). As well as ships that seem to blur the lines between said roles, like the Fang Fighter being a bizarre mix of jousting arc-dodger.

2nd edition IMHO feels like it has done away with the old community classifications, and we have to think outside of the old box.

49 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

CiS definitely has an ace

It's called NUMBERS!

"You can't shoot all of us!" Cheered the droids seconds before Anakin shot them all.

When players argue about ace definition.

5 hours ago, AceWing said:

That said, player skill being equal, an I5 "ace" with the same abilities won't beat an I6 ace heads up. What makes the I5 an ace then? To me, an ace is what I described because it wins against all lower initiative ships heads up, player skill being equal.

I've never been convinced about the near-guaranteed-win idea, but my one observation is that it doesn't necessarily need to be based on boost/barrel roll.

Ultimately, a ship which wins by manoeuvrability - however it gets it - has the potential to play like an 'ace' compared to the people below it on the initiative stick.

For example, Resistance/First Order, even without double-reposition, get pattern analyser, which can let you pull talon rolls and segnors without compromising actions. That's pretty close in effect to double-repositioning for "outflying people" options.

There are basically two questions:

• For an 'ace' facing a higher initiative opponent (for the sake of argument, let's say Guri versus Anakin Skywalker....in a Y-wing), you can't 'react' to someone whose final position is fixed, but you be incredibly hard to predict yourself, and can set a 'movement problem' for your opponent to get an effective shot and/or avoid your shot, where there literally is no solution available for the enemy ship.
• For an 'ace' facing a lower initiative opponent, can you react to your opponent doing something unexpected. Obviously if you have more movement options you should be able to approach their expected position from an unexpected direction, but how well can you reposition if they do something weird.

Taking an example; Echo is a nightmare to face with lower initiative, but he's no picnic to engage with higher initiative either. The fact you know where he's decloaked and moved to doesn't necessarily mean you can get there.

There are multiple definitions of Ace, so this conversation tends to need some qualifiers. Somewhere in 1.0, “Ace” became the shorthand for “Arc Dodging Ace,” a very particular brand of Ace like Soontir, some Poe builds. It appears that in the transition to 2.0, that short hand has (regrettably, in my opinion) remained. Hence the rather passionate feelings by some folks that only an arc dodger is an Ace.

Going on that definition, you look at the things that help you arc dodge to see who qualifies as an Ace. High initiative (self explanatory), a small base (easier to get fully out of arc), action bar with boost and barrel roll, some ability to double reposition (ideally without sacrificing the ability to get a focus token, but that is VERY rare in 2.0), and a pilot ability that aids avoiding arcs (also seemingly rare in 2.0).

True Aces (as opposed to “just” a capable arc dodger) also need to be a formidable end game opponent. That requires enough offense to punch through most defenses. This usually means 3 dice, but 2 dice can do the trick in some circumstances (Advanced Optics, especially with Heroic, CLT I guess....but I still think 7B is the better choice, FCS Vader). It also requires enough defense (either green dice or health) to withstand whatever the opponent has in the endgame. So, we end up with a limited list that ticks ALL the boxes: Poe, Soontir, Vader, Anakin. And it’s worth noting that Soontir isn’t the most survivable of the bunch. These aren’t the ONLY “Aces,” they are the BEST “Aces.” And I’m sure I missed a few.

I maintain that other pilots meet the “requirements” of this narrow definition of Ace, but to varying degrees. Ticking all the boxes isn’t a strict necessity, it just means they don’t fill the role of arc-dodging ace as well as the 4 I mentioned. Fenn Rau and Wedge can’t double reposition, Obi-Wan, L’ulo and Tallie aren’t I6, that sort of thing. Ahsoka with 7B and R2 has Regen, 3 attack, double positioning with the option of a focus (if you don’t mind emptying your force pool), but her lower initiative means you need to be really good at reading the board state or really lucky.

It’s also worth noting that we are slowly getting to a point that moving last isn’t the only way to have information about where the enemy is moving. Sense, Informant, Vi Moradi, these are all viable options that let you know what at least one ship is doing. Also, some upgrades (like BB mechs) give double repositioning to ships that otherwise wouldn’t make the cut as aces.

There is also a tremendous amount of skill that goes into playing an Ace. All the knowledge in the world won’t help you if you dialed in a maneuver that leaves you in a kill box, blocked, or otherwise unable to reposition.

I will also say that I6 pilots have universally gone up in price to the point where if a ship CAN’T do everything, they may not be worth it. Except Wedge, who is really cheap for what he can do...

7 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

I will also say that I6 pilots have universally gone up in price to the point where if a ship CAN’T do everything, they may not be worth it. Except Wedge, who is really cheap for what he can do...

Also Midnight, who also went down in price.

Midnight may be 'just' a TIE fighter, and may lack the old interaction with Juke, but I'd still bet on him in a single-duel engagement against most opponents, especially with Fanatical/Pattern Analyser (which is still only 50 points all-up).

11 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

I maintain that other pilots meet the “requirements” of this narrow definition of Ace, but to varying degrees. Ticking all the boxes isn’t a strict necessity, it just means they don’t fill the role of arc-dodging ace as well as the 4 I mentioned. Fenn Rau and Wedge can’t double reposition, Obi-Wan, L’ulo and Tallie aren’t I6, that sort of thing. Ahsoka with 7B and R2 has Regen, 3 attack, double positioning with the option of a focus (if you don’t mind emptying your force pool), but her lower initiative means you need to be really good at reading the board state or really lucky.

I did wonder about a squad of Jedi Knights with a mix of Sense and Battle Meditation rather than shelling out for the more expensive high-initiative pilots.

Also good to point out that anything High I with afterburners becomes an ace

If only temporarily