Discussing Passive Sensor enabled Torpedoes

By Biophysical, in X-Wing

Passives Sensors enable a handful of inexpensive ships access to target locks on the first turn of combat. The most dramatic effect of this lock access is that high quality attacks in the form of Proton Torpedoes are available to lower initiative (i.e. lower costed) pilots.

The ships that can make use of the Torpedo/Passive Sensor combo are:

B-wings (Rebel), E-wings (Rebel), VCXs (Rebel), Gunboats (Imperial), Punishers (Imperial), Starvipers (Scum), and N1s (Republic).

Of these, E-wings could already perform a similar trick due to their ship ability, although Passive Sensors allow them additional flexibility. The cheapest option for a first round Torpedo shot with these ships is 65 points. VCX aalready have a 4 dice primary, and are quite expensive, so this combo isn't bringing anything new. These two ships can be largely left absent from discussion.

The B-wing and Starviper can bring Passive Sensor powered Torpedoes for 57 and 62 points, respectively. These are 3 attack dice ships that are quite expensive when equipped with Torpedoes, but can be expected to contribute. Overall, they probably perform worse with their limited shot single modded torpedoes than a similarly priced, higher Initiative ship that can get double modded primary attacks (compare to Braylen for B-wings and Guri for Starvipers).

That leaves Gunboats (48 for Nu with Passives and Torps), Punishers (54 for Cutlass with Passives and Torps), and N1s (50 for Bravos with Passives and Torps) as the really interesting ships.

These ships all bring a single modded 4 dice shot on the first turn of combat. This is a quality shot, but it's not a game turning shot, on average. There will be plenty of times it only does one damage, and sometimes variance will hit and it will do nothing even against a low defense ship. It's modestly better than a double modified 3 dice shot at medium range, which isn't especially rare in most lists, so a player must be prepared to leverage the other strengths of the ship in order to get value from one of these ships, or their slightly more expensive named counterparts. The main strength of the Torpedo shot is the defense that it denies at Range 3 and the automatic crit conversion. This is where these ships stand out against double modded 3 dice primary attacks. While a 2 AGI ship with a Focus token could expect to take 2 damage from a pair of range 3 double modded primary attacks, expected damage is around 4, with a high expectation of a crit or two going through. Consequently, engineering long range engagements is going to maximize the advantages of these low Initiative Proton Torpedo carriers.

In squads, these ships are all around 50 points, with some variation based on upgrades. This gives them a couple roles to play. A single ship of this type included in a squad leaves room for two solid main line ships, Vader/Soontir/Gunboat or Jedi/Jedi/N1, for example. A pair of these ships leaves room for an expensive 3rd ship, Defender/Gunboat/Guboat or Anakin/N1/N1, for example.

In both cases outlined above, the cheaper Torpedo carrying ship helps thin down an opposing squad to make it easier for an ace to finish off in the end game. Fortuitously, all of the interesting Passive Sensor Torp carriers don't rely heavily on their action for defense. The gunboat has 7 hp, the N1 has 5 hp with a frequent free evade, the punisher has 9 hp. Conversely, it is very difficult for any of these ships to finish off a game if the ships they're supporting are destroyed early. Aggessive play with these ships is probably safer than timid play. It will be better to gamble and lose these ships early than to let an opposing squad have an uncontested engagement with your ace(s).

That's all I've got for the moment, and it's all based on theory so far. I'm looking forward to getting these guys on the table at the first opportunity to see how much weight a low Initiative ship can carry.

Youve basically identified why protorps went up a point and why the n1 doesn't have reload 😛

problem is I don't think they're going to pull fifty points of weight before getting initiative killed. The torp Bravo is competing with Juke Ole! and that's not a fight I think it can win

(42) Ric Olié [Naboo Royal N-1 Starfighter]
(7) Juke
Points: 49

(34) Bravo Flight Officer [Naboo Royal N-1 Starfighter]
(3) Passive Sensors
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 50

besides, if you're throwing Ordnance you REALLY need full mods (especially if you're just gonna get initiative killed)! You're not getting that with these guys. However,

Rebels pack garven/Jake/saw crew for passive sensor fun on B's and Vcxs even without Torps

CiS doesn't get passive Torps, but they have plenty of calc sharing for their baktoids

Republic can put r2-c4 on an n1 (only 2 less than juke, though...).vl Anakin can relive his movie moment ("woah!")

And then there's the glorious deathrain...

(44) "Deathrain" [TIE/ca Punisher]
(3) Seismic Charges
(5) Proton Bombs
(3) Passive Sensors
(1) Delayed Fuses
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
Points: 62

Total points: 62

All hail!

(Give him Torps if you'd like)

Edited by ficklegreendice

Rho Squadron Pilot (35)
Trick Shot (4)
Passive Sensors (3)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)
Total: 55

Maybe something like this to dance around the rocks and try and live as long as possible?

Edited by All Shields Forward

My issue is that you are paying a 3 point premium for Passive Sensors to make already expensive ordnance work on a sub-optimal platform. That 3 points only helps you when you fire ordnance (likely only once per game, possibly twice). That same 3 points could have instead been put towards upgrading to a more expensive pilot where you would be gaining a higher initiative value (which will be relevant every time you Activate & Engage) as well as potentially a valuable pilot ability. So it becomes a question of whether the generics are cheap enough to be run in high enough numbers to make up for the lost value over simply just running higher initiative pilots with ordnance.

7 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

My issue is that you are paying a 3 point premium for Passive Sensors to make already expensive ordnance work on a sub-optimal platform. That 3 points only helps you when you fire ordnance (likely only once per game, possibly twice). That same 3 points could have instead been put towards upgrading to a more expensive pilot where you would be gaining a higher initiative value (which will be relevant every time you Activate & Engage) as well as potentially a valuable pilot ability. So it becomes a question of whether the generics are cheap enough to be run in high enough numbers to make up for the lost value over simply just running higher initiative pilots with ordnance.

All very true.

I think PS is a neat tool in the list building toolkit to create interesting squadmates choices with ordinance threats where there previously may not have been (as a secondary component in a squad, after your aforementioned better named/initiative pilots have been chosen)...

Or more viably, on a few fringe HIGH I pilots with alternate existing action economy (Whisper, Vader, maybe others).

10 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

My issue is that you are paying a 3 point premium for Passive Sensors to make already expensive ordnance work on a sub-optimal platform. That 3 points only helps you when you fire ordnance (likely only once per game, possibly twice). That same 3 points could have instead been put towards upgrading to a more expensive pilot where you would be gaining a higher initiative value (which will be relevant every time you Activate & Engage) as well as potentially a valuable pilot ability. So it becomes a question of whether the generics are cheap enough to be run in high enough numbers to make up for the lost value over simply just running higher initiative pilots with ordnance.

It doesn't only help when you fire ordnance though, it also enables you to decide locks based on who's in arc generally, which can be very useful, especially for generic Inquisitors/anyone else who can get Force alongside System and has low init (who get double mods out of it), for TIE/x1s generally (because ATC) etc

the passive sensor tax is generally only a point more than going from I2 to I3

not the worst thing in the world until you factor in the cost of ordnance, and then things get dicey...sometimes literally

This is what has caught my interest:

Rho
Marksmanship
Passive Sensors
Plasma
Adv Slam
Autoblaster Cannon
XG1
51pts

4x dropping to either cannon or munitions only on 1. That's the basic idea anyway. Diamond Boron Vynder can also be swapped in.

The problems with OS1/PS/Plasma is you have to take a TL you cant use if you slam or reload. This loadout gives the option to flop between Passive Sensor Plasmas and Adv Slam Autoblasters (or reload/autoblaster, reload/slam, etc).

38 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

[...] the lost value over simply just running higher initiative pilots with ordnance.

If there exist enough higher-initiative pilots with ordnance. There aren't too many. Imperials have Redline and Tomax Bren for Init 5+ torpedoes, and no Init 6. Rebels can fly Wedge/Luke/Thane, if Wedge takes Plasmas instead of Protons and there are no other upgrades. Republic have Oddball in the ARC and Ric Olie at Init 5. Scum actually have a decent number, but most of them never actually bother with Torpedoes. Fenn, Old Teroch, Guri...

But gunboats and N-1 can both run 4-per-list Torpedoes, and two Punishers can serve as a decent basis for a squad with a pricey ace, or a normal ace and a blocker, or whatnot.

Redline [52], Cluster Missiles [5], Passive Sensors [3]

gets two Locks and a Calculate before firing, 60 points.

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

That leaves Gunboats (48 for Nu with Passives and Torps), Punishers (54 for Cutlass with Passives and Torps), and N1s (50 for Bravos with Passives and Torps) as the really interesting ships.

At least until such time as they reshuffle slots on Hyenas, I agree with this list.

A sensors/torps cutlass is nearly the same price as Redline naked - and that's a big angry bomber that doesn't have target issues if it catches anything in arc, and can reload if it ever finds itself living into an endgame scenario. Seems worth, at least comparably.

Whaddabout Passive Sensor enabled Missiles ?

I know that Missiles don't excite people in the same way as torpedoes, but there are three ships off the top of my head who can easily build for Passive Sensor Missile attacks, and do so at a price-point under 40 points (so 5 per list). Gunboats, TIE/v1, and TIE/sf. Pretty much only the thought of 5-per-list

  • Nu gunboats have the tankiest statline, and they can reload. That might be a pretty handy option. However, the drawback is the lack of a turn-around move.
  • Barons of the Empire in the v1 are probably the squishiest on only 4 HP, and reliant on green dice to survive. However, v1 have have the best dial, best standard actions (although they can't use them with Passive Sensors), best Initiative, and the options opened by a Talent slot (Crack Shot along with Passive Sensors and Ion Missiles might not be terrible).
  • Zeta TIE/sf can leverage the Heavy Weapons Turret to get rear shots, either Missile or primary. This will lead to great time-on-target. There's also a sweet Passive Sensors trick of using the Lock action to link into a rotate. It's probably not going to be too hard to guess whether you want your missiles to go front or back, but the option might be nice.

They all have 32 point costs, which means the only affordable missiles are Ion, Homing, and Cluster.

  • Homing Missiles are pretty scary for aces. 5x Homing would make life pretty miserable for anyone under 5 HP, but perhaps is a bit weaker against higher-health ships. Here also, the reload of Gunboats could be strong with the OS-1 configuration. Since using Homing will leave you with a lock on the target, a slow move plus a reload will still allow a shot, and the fact that you can't reroll more than 1 die by spending a lock probably won't matter much.
  • Cluster Missiles bring the potential of throwing 30 attack dice in a round, even though it has to be split between at least two targets. Probably a scary-enough threat to force an opponent to split up their list, which might mean fewer guns on your ships at any time. The downside here is the range. 1-2 is perhaps short enough to just skip the Passive Sensors. They have an advantage as the only plain-damage missile that a passive Sensors list can afford, which might be helpful against higher health stuff like Shuttles or ARCs or whatnot.
    • The most interesting non-Passive Sensors option for Cluster Missiles might be Inquisitors. You'll have the Force charges for extra dice mods (defensive or offensive), and their dial and actions are generally pretty great most of the time.
    • One big strength of Passive Sensor Clusters, however, is the targeting flexibility. The awkward situation of killing a locked target dying and wasting the missile opportunities of the rest of your list is avoided with Passive Sensors.
  • Ion Missiles seem like they kind of split the difference. Not quite as easy to push damage on aces, but the Ion Control becomes a real threat. It'll be easy to set up a bunch of Range 1 shots the next round (with Crack Shot if going with Barons of the Empire). The "close to range 1" option enabled by Ions probably means the Ion option is stronger than the Homing option against high-health enemies.
    • Since Ion is 4 rather than 5 points, Munitions Failsafe is also an option. Eh, doesn't seem too important. Ion already have 3 charges.
    • I suppose another Ion option would be to run Inquisitors with Instinctive Aim. This allows maximum action flexibility, such as Boost or Roll into Focus into Missile. Say... That sounds like fun. Maybe going up to Concussion if flying 3 Inqs + something for 74 points. Vader? A Phantom with 5th Brother?

Mix-and-Match is possible. Crack/Ion Barons plus Homing Missile Nus seem like a cool combo.

missiles are eh

the only one that's terribly fascinating are Diamond Borons, and those're quite limited (hah)

they're also probably the only thing making the Baktoid worth a ****, so hey

56 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

there  are three ships off the top of my head who can easily build for Passive Sensor Missile attacks, and do so at a price-point under  40 points (so 5 per list). Gunboats, TIE/v1, and TIE/  sf. 

Gunboats have access to Barrage, which they might as well just take instead for the same points cost as another missile plus passive.

/v1 already had access to instinctive aim, so it's a minor buff but not a non-existent one. Lock+1 Force > Focus, by a bit.

/sf are a potential winner, given their linked rotate actions. But passives + a real missile are nearly as much as SF Gunner anyways.

So, all of those ships basically just suffer from missiles not going down in price, and/or a missile whose effect is dramatically better than a plain 3-dice primary not existing.

The other ships in category-

Hyenas: whatever, you have energy shells. Maybe if the sensor slot was available on the generic, but not when it's a 2pt tax just to get it.

/v1: maybe? Nah, probably not. Just take passives for your primary.

Punisher: why aren't you taking barrage or torpedoes instead?

Defender: probably not worth it over your primary.

16 minutes ago, svelok said:

/  v1 already had access to instin  ctive aim, so it's a minor buff but not a non  -existent one. Lock+1 Force > Focus  , by  a bit  .  

16 minutes ago, svelok said:

/v1             : maybe? Nah, probably not. Just take passives for your primary  .

Baron...

3 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

My issue is that you are paying a 3 point premium for Passive Sensors to make already expensive ordnance work on a sub-optimal platform. That 3 points only helps you when you fire ordnance (likely only once per game, possibly twice). That same 3 points could have instead been put towards upgrading to a more expensive pilot where you would be gaining a higher initiative value (which will be relevant every time you Activate & Engage) as well as potentially a valuable pilot ability. So it becomes a question of whether the generics are cheap enough to be run in high enough numbers to make up for the lost value over simply just running higher initiative pilots with ordnance.

This is why I suspect that the Gunboat has the best chance of being actually good in this kind of setup. It's the toughest, both in raw durability against multiple incoming shots and because when damaged it can SLAM away, being very difficult to catch. On top of that, it can reload while disengaged and come around again when the time is right. Between their power, speed, and durability, I expect they've got the best chance at making an impact. It does things with SLAMing that regular ships can't really do.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Republic have Oddball in the ARC and Ric Olie at Init 5.

To further complicate matters for the Republic, I don’t see myself ever putting torps on Ric, I think Juke and maybe a droid (R2-A6 maybe?) and that’s it.

And Odd Ball? Meh. Giving him torps puts him in 7B Obi Wan territory, and that’s a pretty easy choice for me to make....

Anakin in a Y-Wing may be an interesting candidate, depending on cost. And I’m going to estimate that Odd Ball in his Y-Wing will be comparable to Norra at around 41 points (Odd Ball has a worse ability, but Republic Y-Wings will certainly pay some sort of premium for plated hull). If so, he may be a worthwhile torp carrier.

Edited by FatherTurin
9 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

Republic   Y-Wings will certainly pay some sort of premium for plated  hull  

I think that is covered by their dial. They have the dial Y-Wings did in 1.0.

46 minutes ago, svelok said:

Hyenas: whatever, you have energy shells. Maybe if the sensor slot was available on the generic, but not when it's a 2pt tax just to get it.

Idk if ESC bombers would be something you use over just ESC vultures. It's a stinking 7 point difference between the two!

Now the Baktoid is an unfortunate case (do wish it were the same cost as the TuB; i1 is painful) but the potential of Borons may might it stronger than it seems

As for the n1...yeah I can't see sensors mattering. N1 is primed to be the new dancy-pants ace coming in at low 50s for its named pilots spotting juke and r2 (given full throttle and no non-red 180s, you're probably gonna be running a LOT so r2 is good for you!)

Doesn't help that Padme and Ole! synergize particularly with juke

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

missiles are eh

I know I keep saying it but every single lock-based missile needed exactly a 2-point drop.

Ion - 2 pts

Clusters - 3 pts

Homing - 3 pts

Concussion - 4 pts

Now that makes for a pretty appealing option, doesn't it? But of course it's not auto-include because it would mean bringing one fewer Z-95 or Vulture. It just brings them on par with ESC, Prockets, Barrage, etc. Ions can only deal 3 damage (if your chassis lives that long) and the same goes for homing. Clusters are nice but that lock is tough to get.

Passive Sensors, Targeting Synchronizer, and Synchronized Console of course make the locks easier to get, but (not surprisingly) also come at an additional cost. The fact that the devs didn't change anything here is completely beyond me.

Edited by ClassicalMoser
1 hour ago, svelok said:

Gunboats have access to Barrage, which they might as well just take instead for the same points cost as another missile plus passive.

/v1 already had access to instinctive aim, so it's a minor buff but not a non-existent one. Lock+1 Force > Focus, by a bit.

/sf are a potential winner, given their linked rotate actions. But passives + a real missile are nearly as much as SF Gunner anyways. 

So, all of those ships basically just suffer from missiles not going down in price, and/or a missile whose effect is dramatically better than a plain 3-dice primary not existing.

Probably fair with the Gunboat, but it doesn't seem pointless to consider the option. Reloadable Homing has a slim justification to it over Barrage.

/v1, the more I think about it, isn't good with PS. Instinctive Aim Ions if you want to keep it sub-40, since you'll have a lot of action flexibility. The reason to bring a /v1 over something else is dial and actions, and Passive Sensors doesn't really let you do that. Dang the IA Inquisitor got buffed. It went from 42 down to 40 down to 36 points, which is a pretty huge breakpoint change. I don't think it's bad that it's taken so long, however. Generic Force ships were a pretty new thing, and it doesn't seem wrong for FFG to have been cautious with them.

Passive Sensor/Missile /sf really depend on to price. You can't fit 5x Gunner SFs in a squad (and really never should be able to... 5x mainline jousters shouldn't happen on a ship with this many extra tricks), but missiles can be 5-per. I've flown and enjoyed 5x non-Gunner SF with just Advanced Optics, and I know folks have done well enough with Fanatical Omegas. They're kind of like Resistance RZ-2 A-Wings with the way their rear guns really help time-on-target. They can't boost, but they're a little tougher, and now they've got the option of easy missiles. Would it be nice if they could equip Concussions, or Munitions Failsafe on Clusters? Sure. But I still kinda think it might have potential.

Lots of downers here on passive sensors. They are fantastic on bwings with a little bit of support (which rebels have in spades).

Garven Dreis (47)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Jake Farrell (36)
Crack Shot (1)
Predator (2)

Blue Squadron Pilot (41)
Passive Sensors (3)
Proton Torpedoes (13)

Blue Squadron Pilot (41)
Passive Sensors (3)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
Total: 200

Jake alone can focus up two by himself. 50pts to play around with. I added Garven to give Jake a focus back, but could go with Biggs or Thane, or even dutch with plasmas or double shot Horton or tractor beam Ten Numb. Lots of options to go along with two fully modded bwing torps. Another option instead of Jake is Leia carrying AP5. This is going to be a brutal attack on anyone who lands in arc. If want that ace, swap one bwing for Wedge.

As for the N-1s with torpedoes, you need to look at the R2-C4 droid. It turns their free evade into a calc. Or ani with force. So you get a lock + calc basically (3.5 expected hits vs 3.75 with lock + focus). However, using Padme and her ability for her opponent to only change 1 eyeball, and it can be a devastating attack. And Padme has built in defense to boot. Combo that with Luminara, and Padme can be hard to bring down.

Padmé Amidala (45)
Crack Shot (1)
Passive Sensors (3)
R2-C4 (5)
Proton Torpedoes (13)

Luminara Unduli (43)
Delta-7B (18)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (47)
Delta-7B (19)
Total: 194

Republic has lots of easy ways to give a focus to ships. Plo Koon can simply pass a green token. And Ahsoka can give a focus action, since it is not a coordinate (cant do it with passive sensors when inactive).

Dineé Ellberger (38)
Crack Shot (1)
Passive Sensors (3)
R2-A6 (6)
Proton Torpedoes (13)

Ahsoka Tano (47)
Delta-7B (17)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (47)
Sense (5)
Delta-7B (19)
Total: 196

Ahsoka gives dinee a focus. And Obi lets dinee use focus on defense while keeping it for offense.

Also, how scary is Dinee with torps!? "Am I slow rolling to catch those slow *** rebels, or going fast to get my evade?" And when playing against imps, Vader is shaking in his boots. Does Vader really want to do a 3 bank for afterburners or even a 3-talon to get back into the fight when N1's are likely to do a 3 for the evade?

Edited by wurms
6 hours ago, wurms said:

Also, how scary is Dinee with torps!? "Am I slow rolling to catch those slow *** rebels, or going fast to get my evade?" And when playing against imps, Vader is shaking in his boots. Does Vader really want to do a 3 bank for afterburners or even a 3-talon to get back into the fight when N1's are likely to do a 3 for the evade?

Pairing Dinee and Captain Obvious seems like a good pairing; both will want to go at speed 3 fairly often - if you go speed 1-2, Ollie punishes you, if you go speed 3, Dinee punishes you, and if you go speed 4-5 - you can't turn....

I still think that Vulture swarms with energy charges are going to eat these things for lunch.

Only if the dice play ball