One issue that X-Wing has had since 1.0 has been with the variable value of upgrades. Simply put, the value provided by a given upgrade varies wildly depending on the ship using it.

2.0 has taken a big step towards addressing this with the variable upgrade costs. Scaling costs based on Initiative, Agility and Base Size have generally been a pretty smart move, though some of the curves may still need tweaking. However, you still get outliers like Juke, which is both very strong on certain ships and yet borderline useless on others.

My opinion on how to address this would be for FFG to completely embrace the progressive cost model. Upgrades would be classed into three categories: Offense, Defense and Utility. Offensive upgrades would largely have a flat cost, with maybe one or two scaling based on Initative. Defensive upgrades would largely scale based on agility value. Utility upgrades (Tactical Officer, Swarm Tactics, etc) would largely scale off Initiative.

However, this still wouldn't cover everything. Juke would still always be better on Phantoms and Defenders than it would be on TIE Fighters and Strikers. Hate is probably worth 9 points on Maul, but it's an expensive luxury on the IN3 Dooku in the same chassis. How would that value be reflected? This leads to the second part of my idea: class premiums.

Class premiums would be flat cost increases that apply to certain upgrades within a category. These premiums would be listed as part of the pricing for the pilot. The pricing for upgrades would specify if they were subject to a premium.

So, for example, Juke could be classed as a "Premium Eligible" Offensive upgrade with a base cost of 3. TIE Fighters and Strikers would only have to pay that much to run it. However, Shadow Squadron Pilots, which get a free evade action built-in, might have an Offensive Upgrade premium of 4 points. Juke then becomes a 7-point upgrade for them. Defenders also get a free evade action, but maybe they only have a 2-point premium because they're already so expensive and the Juke doesn't do as much for them.

Does anyone else see this as a concern? If so, any other ideas on how to approach it?

NO PLEASE NO NEVER

Seriously it's just a game. Some things will be better than others on some ships. Guri and 4-LOM will always take AS over FCS. Kylo and Maul will always take Hate over Instinctive Aim. I see all kinds of crazy-complicated schemes to "fix" this but it's extremely deterring to casuals who wouldn't even know where to start, especially when using the PDF. We don't want list building to be harder than doing your taxes.

Also the devs have repeatedly stressed that they want the game to stay friendly to newcomers. Let's keep it that way.

There is nothing wrong with some upgrades being better on some ships then others. It adds flavor and uniqueness to the game.

"When everyone is super, no one will be"- syndrome

Just now, Icelom said:

There is nothing wrong with some upgrades being better on some ships then others. It adds flavor and uniqueness to the game.

"When everyone is supper, no one will be"- syndrome

Supper? It’s not even lunch time for me yet!

2 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Supper? It’s not even lunch time for me yet!

I'm pretty sure that the quote "When everyone is supper, no one will be" actually belongs to Hannibal Lecter.

2 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Does anyone else see this as a concern?

Yeah. I don't have a PhD in mathematics. Nor to I want one.

Upgrade pricing doesn't need to be improved, it is sufficient to play the game.

2 hours ago, Skitch_ said:

Upgrade pricing doesn't need to be improved, it is sufficient to play the game.

It's enough to play the game, but it feels like much of the point pricing lately is less to bring things into balance, and more to push people into not using the cards at all. Proton Torpedoes went from exceedingly commonplace, to common on a few aces, to now probably only seeing play on a very select few ships like Vynder. It didn't drive people to use other torpedoes. It just drove them to fly ships that didn't need Torpedoes at all.

Some of these price adjustments seem like they were designed to push the cards completely out of the game, like Trajectory Simulator. I haven't seen it on the table since it went to 10 points. Supernatural basically only exists on Kylo now, and even that's rare.

The current pattern seems to be that a card comes out that is very strong on one or two pilots, so they increase the cost for all pilots in order to balance the outliers. The end result is that you might still see it on those few pilots, maybe. But nobody else will ever touch that card, and the offending pilots may just gravitate to something else that hadn't been nerfed yet. It's like trying to smooth out a pillow by whacking it with a hammer.

6 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Some of these price adjustments seem like they were designed to push the cards completely out of the game, like Trajectory Simulator. I haven't seen it on the table since it went to 10 points. Supernatural basically only exists on Kylo now, and even that's rare.

I run supernatural on my Tie Vi's and its fantastic.

5 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

It's enough to play the game, but it feels like much of the point pricing lately is less to bring things into balance, and more to push people into not using the cards at all. Proton Torpedoes  went from exceedingly commonplace, to common on a few aces, to now probab  ly  only seeing play on a very select few ship  s  li  ke Vynder. It didn't drive people to use othe  r  t   orpedoes. It just drove them to fly ships tha  t didn't need Torpedoes at all. 

Some of these pr  ice adjustments seem like they were designed to push the cards completely out of the game, like Trajectory Simulator. I haven't seen it on the table since it went to 10 points. Supernatural basically only exists on Kylo now, and even that's rare. 

The current pattern seems to be that a card comes out that is very strong on one or two pilots, so they increase the cost for all pilots in order to balance the outliers. The end result is that you might still see it on those few pilots, maybe. But nobody else will ever touch that card, and the offending pilots may just gravitate to something else that hadn't been nerfed yet. It's like trying to smooth out a pillow by whacking it with a hammer.

I’m going to have a LOT of fun now that Supernatural Inqy is sub-80 points. I still love Supernatural Luke.

I think you’ll be unpleasantly surprised by the upcoming frequency of Proton Torpedoes; Passive + Protorps is a mere 17 and will be carried on EVERYTHING with the slots for it.

5 hours ago, Icelom said:

There is nothing wrong with some upgrades being better on some ships then others. It adds flavor and uniqueness to the game.

Didn't the devs said exactly this in the stream the other day?

Seriously, I think that having some cards vary it costs already is a hassle and the need to refer to a spreadsheet or an app to make a squad is bothersome. I would remove scaled costs completely in favor of simplicity. It is now a game feature though. I just not want more of this.

48 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I’m going to have a LOT of fun now that Supernatural Inqy is sub-80 points. I still love Supernatural Luke.

I think you’ll be unpleasantly surprised by the upcoming frequency of Proton Torpedoes; Passive + Protorps is a mere 17 and will be carried on EVERYTHING with the slots for it.

I don't think it'll quite be as common as you expect. The only two that really make sense for that combo are TIE Punishers (54 point starting cost) and generic Gunboats (48 points). Rebels have at least 20 better ways to spend 57 points than a Passive Sensor Blue Squadron Pilot. The N1 can run them at 50 points, but that's five health backed by two agility and one evade token. You could get 104th Battalion Pilot with a Seventh Fleet Gunner for only one more point.

I think there are already things that are variable cost that don’t really make sense to be. Less complexity is better. Some complexity is necessary for good game design and balance, I get it. But we shouldn’t strive for the most complex system to solve a problem when the existing one works.

3 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

It's enough to play the game, but it feels like much of the point pricing lately is less to bring things into balance, and more to push people into not using the cards at all. Proton Torpedoes went from exceedingly commonplace, to common on a few aces, to now probably only seeing play on a very select few ships like Vynder. It didn't drive people to use other torpedoes. It just drove them to fly ships that didn't need Torpedoes at all.

The current pattern seems to be that a card comes out that is very strong on one or two pilots, so they increase the cost for all pilots in order to balance the outliers. The end result is that you might still see it on those few pilots, maybe. But nobody else will ever touch that card, and the offending pilots may just gravitate to something else that hadn't been nerfed yet. It's like trying to smooth out a pillow by whacking it with a hammer.

When cards lost points and slots, I was afraid of 2 main things:

A. The devs were going to get sloppy, because nothing really mattered until you saw how bad the card would be in play. Right now, I'd have to say that fear was pretty unfounded--it seem the devs a pretty good eye for the Do Not Cross line, and a lot of what has come out has been creative and ground breaking.

B. Point cost manipulations were going to be use to drive the Flavor of the Day. This seems to be happening. Since they cannot manipulate the meta thru cards and combos right now, they are going to baldly do it thru points.

Quote

Some of these price adjustments seem like they were designed to push the cards completely out of the game, like Trajectory Simulator. I haven't seen it on the table since it went to 10 points. Supernatural basically only exists on Kylo now, and even that's rare.

Absolutely. It's a soft ban, and I think a hard ban would have been just as useful a way to fix mistakes. But people vehemently opposed that idea.

1 hour ago, LUZ_TAK said:

Seriously, I think that having some cards vary it costs already is a hassle and the need to refer to a spreadsheet or an app to make a squad is bothersome. I would remove scaled costs completely in favor of simplicity. It is now a game feature though. I just not want more of this.

Me too.

And what's worse, as a casual player, all of this points manipulation skullduggery is a royal pain in the *** for someone who only plays casual.

I'm having fun with a certain list, and then because a scad of players ruined a card combo element of my list by playing Rebel Beef until the cows came home (see what I did?} now my entire friggin' list is ruined and I can't play it despite the fact that it had nothing to do with Rebel Beef at all.

No longer can I archive a list from a year ago, and just look at it to see what new upgrades might work better, and play it again; the whole **** thing might be illegal. You haven't just fallen behind--you've been ostracized.

So it is no longer a case of just not bothering to play keep up--your old school list may no longer be supported in the current software and impossible to recreate. On a very basic level, it makes the game a PIA to have your list gutted "q. 6 mos" and be forced to rebuild everything you liked twice a year.

Lastly, this is no longer a case of "a better balanced game is good for the casual player." This is about breaking up Rebel Beef. And a casual player who never played Rebel Beef is going to be hosed because they may have liked to use one or two elements of it.

*****

The devs went this route because "point changes" were strongly advocated by the community. Sadly, it didn't fix a **** thing, because instead of complaining The Text Is Broken At That Cost , now The Cost Is Broken For That Text . It didn't change a thing: players abuse strong lists, FFG has to listen to people ***** about it, and then they manipulate the game.

What has changed is that players who were just trying to have a nice night of Beer and Pretzels X-Wing are going to get screwed repeatedly in ways that weren't possible in 1.0.

So, while I agree with your grievances, @PhantomFO , the last thing I want is more numbers to keep track of.

10 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Does anyone else see this as a concern?

Somewhat. I do have a background in math, and I can remember a lot of prices, but there's a limit to how much complexity is good.

Release-day scaling was really good. Upgrades reducing the cost of movement actions scaling by base size, raw health modifications scaling by agility. Ok.

When they started doing initiative scaling, I liked it on the BB-Astromechs, since those are fun little buggers and it's cool to have them cheap, and Primed Thrusters getting a bit cheaper also seemed wise. It was kind of unplayable due to high price except on those aces where it's really good. Init scaling on BBs and Primed Thrusters were, as much as anything, a means of making them cheaper on low-init ships, rather than more expensive on high. As such, I see them as not too bad, since it adds to fun.

Squad Leader certainly needed a nerf (4 was absurdly cheap), but I don't know that scaling prices is really all that much better than simply making it a 9-10 point upgrade for everyone. That would hurt a really rare case like A-Wings with coordinate, but killing an Init 1 coordinate A-Wing isn't too terrible of a consequence.

Jedi scaling is kind of silly. On release, with three different rates depending on CLT and 7B and the pilots. Ungh. Current scheme doesn't look much better.

Now, the scaling on Seasoned Navigator and Inertial Dampeners just seems a little excessive. Like, you can't run IDs with R2-D2 crew anymore, so being so fiddly with it is pointless. Just slap 3 or 4 or 5 points on it for everyone and call it good. Seasoned Navigator only ever got played on like, maybe, Hera. Just price it for her. These are just such niche upgrades which generally only show up on one single ship. The added complexity, while it "makes sense" is just a needless hassle.

I used to be more pro-scaling than I am now. I think the cost of complexity is starting to get too high.

And here's a cool counter-example. A lot of folks were beating the drum for initiative scaling for Ordnance. Now Passive Sensors (which seems scary under-priced to me...) blows up initiative entirely when it comes to taking Locks, so it's a really good thing that Torpedoes didn't become initiative-scaled.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Like, you can't run IDs with R2-D2 crew anym   or  e   ,

Ya you can, just not in the Rebel Falcon. There are 2 other Rebel ships with Illicit and Crew...

9 hours ago, Icelom said:

I run supernatural on my Tie Vi's and its fantastic.

At the low-initiative prices, it's great value. I can imagine Ezra in an Attack Shuttle or TIE fighter being okay with it too.

Generic jedi get Fine-Tuned Controls, so I don't see them ever wanting it.

11 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

It's enough to play the game, but it feels like much of the point pricing lately is less to bring things into balance, and more to push people into not using the cards at all. Proton Torpedoes went from exceedingly commonplace, to common on a few aces, to now probably only seeing play on a very select few ships like Vynder. It didn't drive people to use other torpedoes. It just drove them to fly ships that didn't need Torpedoes at all.

Some of these price adjustments seem like they were designed to push the cards completely out of the game, like Trajectory Simulator. I haven't seen it on the table since it went to 10 points. Supernatural basically only exists on Kylo now, and even that's rare.

The current pattern seems to be that a card comes out that is very strong on one or two pilots, so they increase the cost for all pilots in order to balance the outliers. The end result is that you might still see it on those few pilots, maybe. But nobody else will ever touch that card, and the offending pilots may just gravitate to something else that hadn't been nerfed yet. It's like trying to smooth out a pillow by whacking it with a hammer.

Some cards are beyond saving because the FFG team occasionally makes huge mistakes by implementing terrible ideas. Some of the upgrades distort the game so badly that they must be excised from play (Supernatural Reflexes is the best example). You want them to be fixed, but the truth is that they never should have existed.

With respect to something like Juke, it is in a similar situation. Allowing it to be a reasonable cost for most ships means that it is grossly undercoated for a few ships. Normally priced Juke and Phantoms are completely incompatible with overall balance and simply cannot exist in the game at the same time.

19 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

It's enough to play the game, but it feels like much of the point pricing lately is less to bring things into balance, and more to push people into not using the cards at all.

FFG increasing point costs for cards that are used almost exclusively in a single list, Juke/Quad Phantoms for example, IS them balancing the game. You can still use ProTorps if you want. You can still use SNR, you can still use Dormitz, Redline, Jonus. You can still put Juke on a Phantom. You just can't put Juke on 3 Phantoms and have a 4th Phantom. It wasn't balanced.

FFG increasing point costs (sometimes by a lot) then slowly bringing them back down is the best method to balance things while trying to curb power creep. FFG can't and shouldn't just lower the cost of every other ship or upgrade to compensate for quad phantoms, either.

Trying to devise a system where every upgrade is "correctly costed" for every pilot is not needed and adds a layer of complexity that outweighs the benefit. Assuming this were possible and FFG found the perfect price point for Juke for every pilot in the game there would still be pilots that never use Juke, and that isn't a bad thing.

FFG has to keep it simple for the sake of the game. Which brings me back to my point about sufficing. No, it isn't perfect but it is good enough overall to get a list going and actually play the game and have fun . 2.0 hasn't even been out a year yet. As time goes on FFG will be able to hone in on the optimal cost for each upgrade with the system they have.

So far in 2.0, FFG has handed out 113 point increases and 288 point decreases.

For the Wave 4 points, every single faction received way more point decreases than increases:

• Empire: 15
• Scum: 29
• Resistance: 13
• FO: 14
• Republic: 18
• Separatists: 13
• Except Rebels who received only 2 more decreases than increases.
• Generic upgrades received 7 more point increases than decreases.

And overall, every faction received a healthy reduction in points:

• Rebels dropped 8 points
• Empire dropped 37 points
• Scum dropped 41 points
• Resistance dropped 28 points
• First Order dropped 23 points
• Republic dropped 60 points
• Separatists dropped 25 points
• Generic upgrades went up a net 48 points.

9 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

At the low-initiative prices, it's great value. I can imagine Ezra in an Attack Shuttle or TIE fighter being okay with it too.

Generic jedi get Fine-Tuned Controls, so I don't see them ever wanting it.

Oh I should introduce you to Supernatural Mace then. He loves SR, and at 16 points is quite reasonable.

On 6/26/2019 at 12:35 PM, PhantomFO said:

Does anyone else see this as a concern?

No.

And I'm going to reiterate @ClassicalMoser 's excellent point here.

"Seriously, it's just a game"