Told my players edge line only as I’m new to the system and those are the books I have. Player x wants to play a Padawan survivor. Am I being unreasonable? I barely understand how the different exile powers work, and I’m not sure how much stronger his desired spec/career will make him over time

25 minutes ago, JskyWalker said:

Am I being unreasonable    ? 

Absolutely not. You are the GM and your word is final. If you don't want Force-users in your game (no matter the reason) they aren't an option.

But if your main reason for restricting them is that you don't understand the powers/talents/whatever, you can take some time to learn them for this specific character and allow non-EotE material on a case-by-case basis.

Heck, you could do a short 3- or 4-session arc with throw-away characters to learn how the game works and give you time to learn how the Force works. Or not. Your table, your rules.

At the end of the day, the GM is always right ( especially when it comes to your comfortability with the rules/mechanics!)

With that said, is there a balance shift with the rise spec? Is It, and it’s career counterparts much better than exile? I suppose I can house rule it as a one off spec

There's no real power-creep to worry about. Most of the specs are just a different collection of the same talents. It's no more powerful then Exile…it's just a different experience.

1 hour ago, JskyWalker said:

Told my players edge line only as I’m new to the system and those are the books I have. Player x wants to play a Padawan survivor. Am I being unreasonable? I barely understand how the different exile powers work, and I’m not sure how much stronger his desired spec/career will make him over time

It should also be mentioned that you can't Start as a Padawan Survivor. It's a universal spec that supposed to be taken as a secondary spec to another Career/Spec later on.

It's a way to say run a... Smuggler lets say, and then over the course of the campaign reveal that he/she was actually a Padawan long ago, not so much learning how, but remembering or not demonstrating his full abilities until the time comes (which happens to coincide with his XP earning :P).

So, it legit and super-fair to say "Dude, save up some XP and if you want to take it later then that's cool, but give me time to figure out how the force powers and such work first." Not only will it allow you both to sort out the power mechanics, but his XP stockpile will allow him to just bust out one day and be all "I'm a Jedi now, and that's all there is to it!" just as if he were suddenly deciding to reveal himself.

As for power balance, you're pretty good. This system makes force character creation tricky, as you're spreading your XP out over several difference things, and getting super-powerful force stuff without kicking yourself in the nuts elsewhere is not an easy thing. So again, it's actually probably more fair to the player to give him time to run the numbers and work out the details so he doesn't dive in, blow his XP, and find out that even though he can lift cars with his mind, he also can't go to the bathroom without someone to help him get out of his overalls.

2 hours ago, JskyWalker said:

Told my players edge line only as I’m new to the system and those are the books I have. Player x wants to play a Padawan survivor. Am I being unreasonable? I barely understand how the different exile powers work, and I’m not sure how much stronger his desired spec/career will make him over time

As the adage goes, it's your table, so it's your decision on what is or isn't allowed. I've run and played in games where the PCs are limited to careers/specs from one product line, either initially or for the campaign's duration.

As Ghostofman said, Padawan Survivor can't be taken as an initial specialization, since it's a universal spec, meaning that if your player really wants it, they need to fork some of their starting XP to get it.

As for being "stronger" or "better" than Force Sensitive Exile, that depends, but ultimately it's just "different." Padawan Survivor does provide access to the Lightsaber skill via a talent (which they can't get to right away), as well as having talents to let the player get to some Jedi-esque abilities, while having talents that make the character good at keeping a low profile (it's almost a given that those two ranks of Smooth Talker are there to boost up Deception checks more than any other social skill). It should be noted that the lightsabers listed in EotE are high-end models of the sort that notables like Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Mace Windu would have; Force and Destiny (as well as Rise of the Separatists) introduce a more reasonable "basic lightsaber" that does about half as much damage and doesn't crit as often or as viciously as the EotE lightsaber (still has Breach 1 though), but can over time be built up into something pretty close to the EotE lightsaber. It's also something that by default wouldn't be available to the player in the time frame that you'd find a Padawan Survivor, so you don't need to fret right away about the PC having instant access to a lightsaber.

Being a Force user in this game is a very low road to hoe, especially when compared to WotC's Star Wars RPGs (Saga Edition especially), as it takes a lot of XP to learn and then get really good at the various Force powers. And until that player reaches the Force Rating talent, they're going to be pretty limited to what sort of Force effects they can reliably pull off (unless they're exceptionally lucky with their dice rolls).

One possible compromise is to let the player purchase Padawan Survivor, but limit the character to only learning the Force powers that are included in the EotE core rulebook (which honestly pretty much are the basic powers that majority of Jedi would possess). That way, you've got time to brush up on the various Force powers, especially as more get added in Rise of the Separatists and especially in the Force and Destiny line. And as for the lightsaber, a good rule of thumb is that at or around the time the character would reach the 100XP benchmark, set up an adventure that lets the character earn their kyber crystal and thus build their own lightsaber (the GM Kit has a pretty solid adventure on that front).

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

It should also be mentioned that you can't Start as a Padawan Survivor. It's a universal spec that supposed to be taken as a secondary spec to another Career/Spec later on. 

This is only partially true. It's true that you cannot be *only* a Padawan Survivor (you must still choose a career and starting specialization), but there is no rule that says you cannot purchase universal specializations at character creation.

2 minutes ago, ddbrown30 said:

This is only partially true. It's true that you cannot be *only* a Padawan Survivor (you must still choose a career and starting specialization), but there is no rule that says you cannot purchase universal specializations at character creation.

It's probably ill advised, but yes you can start with a second spec if you like. However you can't buy Force Powers.

I recommend taking Force Sensitive: Exile and call yourself a padawan survivor.

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

It should also be mentioned that you can't Start as a Padawan Survivor. It's a universal spec that supposed to be taken as a secondary spec to another Career/Spec later on.

It's a way to say run a... Smuggler lets say, and then over the course of the campaign reveal that he/she was actually a Padawan long ago, not so much learning how, but remembering or not demonstrating his full abilities until the time comes (which happens to coincide with his XP earning :P).

So, it legit and super-fair to say "Dude, save up some XP and if you want to take it later then that's cool, but give me time to figure out how the force powers and such work first." Not only will it allow you both to sort out the power mechanics, but his XP stockpile will allow him to just bust out one day and be all "I'm a Jedi now, and that's all there is to it!" just as if he were suddenly deciding to reveal himself.

As for power balance, you're pretty good. This system makes force character creation tricky, as you're spreading your XP out over several difference things, and getting super-powerful force stuff without kicking yourself in the nuts elsewhere is not an easy thing. So again, it's actually probably more fair to the player to give him time to run the numbers and work out the details so he doesn't dive in, blow his XP, and find out that even though he can lift cars with his mind, he also can't go to the bathroom without someone to help him get out of his overalls.

It’s a universal spec? He sent me a PDF of his Oggdude and it’s listing is

career- mystic

spec- Padawan survivor

I’m at work so I can look at the program myself. How would he have only chosen a universal?

29 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

It's probably ill advised, but yes you can start with a second spec if you like. However you can't buy Force Powers.

Well, you can, but only if you're willing to spend less XP on things like characteristics or skill ranks.

For instance, I could spend 20XP for the spec, 10XP each for Sense and Move's basic powers, but that leaves with me 40XP less to spend out of whatever my species' starting XP budget. Which for most species means that I'm only going to be able to raise two of my starting characteristics above their normal value.

It's not really advisable to do so, as multiple writers have said that the best place to spend starting XP is on characteristics, but it can be done.

10 minutes ago, JskyWalker said:

It’s a universal spec? He sent me a PDF of his Oggdude and it’s listing is

career- mystic

spec- Padawan survivor

I’m at work so I can look at the program myself. How would he have only chosen a universal?

That shouldn't be possible, atleast to my knowledge of the RAW.

On Chargen, the player must choose a starting Career and a starting Specialization from that Career.

The player can then purchase another specialization from the starting XP if he so chooses.

But I'd suggest talking to your player and ask him if he'd like to take the Force-Sensitive Exile (or another available Force Sensitive Specialization from his Career) and you make the narrative of him being a Padawan Survivor. (He can always later purchase the Padawan Survivor Spec if he wants some Talents out of that Spec).

11 minutes ago, JskyWalker said:

It’s a universal spec? He sent me a PDF of his Oggdude and it’s listing is

career- mystic

spec- Padawan survivor

I’m at work so I can look at the program myself. How would he have only chosen a universal?

Yeah, Padawan Survivor is a universal spec, so it can't by RAW be chosen as the player's beginning specialization.

Since OggDude's doesn't have Dawn of Rebellion material loaded yet (next scheduled update will include Cyphers & Masks), more than likely your player mis-entered (accidentally or deliberately) the spec so that it's attached to the Mystic career out of Force and Destiny.

As an add-on, I would say that unless your or he has the Dawn of Rebellion sourcebook (and that you have ready access to it), then don't allow the spec in your game. Some of the talents have additional text in the Talents chapter that's not covered in the condensed description that's on the talent trees themselves that might well be handy to have.

18 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, you can, but only if you're willing to spend less XP on things like characteristics or skill ranks.

For instance, I could spend 20XP for the spec, 10XP each for Sense and Move's basic powers, but that leaves with me 40XP less to spend out of whatever my species' starting XP budget. Which for most species means that I'm only going to be able to raise two of my starting characteristics above their normal value.

It's not really advisable to do so, as multiple writers have said that the best place to spend starting XP is on characteristics, but it can be done.

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I thought Force Powers are Start weren't permitted by RAW?

6 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I thought Force Powers are Start weren't permitted by RAW?

Unless something has changed since the books were printed, you could always buy Force powers using your starting XP. Even back in EotE, though doing so would seriously cut into your XP budget for raising characteristics. I don't have my books on hand to check the exact rules, but especially with F&D PCs starting with Force Rating 1 it seems very odd to not allow PCs to use starting XP to buy Force powers.

I suppose maybe it's a house rule to disallow buying Force powers out of starting XP, or maybe a recommendation to wait to buy Force powers if a F&D group chooses the Mentor option since it's been clarified that XP savings can't be used with powers purchased with a character's starting XP.

3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Unless something has changed since the books were printed, you could always buy Force powers using your starting XP. Even back in EotE, though doing so would seriously cut into your XP budget for raising characteristics. I don't have my books on hand to check the exact rules, but especially with F&D PCs starting with Force Rating 1 it seems very odd to not allow PCs to use starting XP to buy Force powers.

I suppose maybe it's a house rule to disallow buying Force powers out of starting XP, or maybe a recommendation to wait to buy Force powers if a F&D group chooses the Mentor option since it's been clarified that XP savings can't be used with powers purchased with a character's starting XP.

Ah I see what happened, I misread the "characters do not begin with force powers" line.

I didn't really follow that anyway, but it's funny the things you miss..

1 hour ago, JskyWalker said:

It’s a universal spec? He sent me a PDF of his Oggdude and it’s listing is

career- mystic

spec- Padawan survivor

I’m at work so I can look at the program myself. How would he have only chosen a universal?

Another thing. If you told your players edge only, then this is violating your table rules anyway. Mystic is not an edge career, it's a force and destiny career.

Outside of any specific advice for the system, you might want to have a discussion with your group about expectations. If this player is immediately drawn to the Force and Destiny books and playing a Padawan, they probably are expected/hoping for a game that will be centered around these concepts. If you're planning on running an underworld, smugglers and rogues style game, that might not line up.

When it comes to Star Wars, some people just want to be Jedi. If that's not what you want to run, you should make sure that your players understand and are on board with that now or it will be a bad time for everyone, including you.

6 hours ago, JskyWalker said:

Told my players edge line only as I’m new to the system and those are the books I have. Player x wants to play a Padawan survivor. Am I being unreasonable? I barely understand how the different exile powers work, and I’m not sure how much stronger his desired spec/career will make him over time

As others have mentioned it's your game so it's your rules and because you're new to the system it's fair to put in limits until you get more familiar it. As for the differences in relative strength between the different careers and specialization you will find in time that they are all pretty well balanced so one choice isn't going to be significantly better than another. FFG has split this franchise into three main "sets" but the rules for all of them are exactly the same, the only differences are the Careers and Specializations available, a few Talents and available Skills, and more Force Powers.

In case Player X didn't let you know the Padawan Survivor specialization if from the Dawn of Rebellion Sourcebook so it does not contain new rules just setting information and some setting specific specializations with a Talent or two not in EotE. Basically it's not going to make it harder for you as the GM as long as Player X brings the book with them so when they use a Talent not in EotE you have it to look at if there is a question on how it works.

Since it's just a Specialization I would suggest letting Player X take it because it'll make them happy and it wont make thing any harder for you.

Thanks for all the replies. Player x assuredly doesn't have the dawn book, and it's just one of the reasons I'm not going to allow it. We have a rather large group so making exceptions out of the gate is just setting myself up for future headaches. Edge encapsulates the setting I want to run, and if FF can divide up the game, I suppose I can too. My fault was quenching their pre-session zero excitement with a generator and description zip that gave them everything under the sun. Now I've got to be the bad guy, lessen learned.

15 minutes ago, JskyWalker said:

Now I've got to be the bad guy, lessen learned.

Don't be discouraged; sometimes being the bad guy is the way to be the good GM.

13 hours ago, JskyWalker said:

Thanks for all the replies. Player x assuredly doesn't have the dawn book, and it's just one of the reasons I'm not going to allow it. We have a rather large group so making exceptions out of the gate is just setting myself up for future headaches. Edge encapsulates the setting I want to run, and if FF can divide up the game, I suppose I can too. My fault was quenching their pre-session zero excitement with a generator and description zip that gave them everything under the sun. Now I've got to be the bad guy, lessen learned.

Yes and no regarding the fault.

If you did say at the outset "Hey gang, let's stick to EotE careers and specs only, m'kay?" then it's totally on the player who opted to go outside that established restriction by not only choosing a F&D career but also a specialization that neither of you have the book for, and apparently ignoring the rules restriction that you can't select a universal spec as your starting specialization.

It's also on the player that as excited as they may have been, they probably should have waited for the session zero, especially if you'd said there was going to be a session zero where campaign theme and character concepts were discussed. I can get jumping the gun in their excitement (I've done it numerous times), but in the end the player should have asked, "hey, I want to play a Force user, is that cool with you?" If nothing else, it's just simply being polite to the GM, who is taking the time to create the campaign and run the game in the first place.

While a GM should be willing to accommodate the players in terms of character ideas, by the same token the players should be willing to accommodate the GM on what sort of campaign they want to run. For instance, showing up with a character like the Punisher for the first session of what's intended to be a Four-Color Silver Age superheroes campaign is the fault of the player for ignoring the campaign guidelines the GM put in place, and I wouldn't fault the GM at all for telling that player that their Punisher clone isn't allowed and to come back with a character that actually fits into the campaign's theme.

It's been said ad nauseum that this is a "Yes and.." or "Yes but..." system, but as the GM you do have the right to draw lines and say, "Sorry, but that's not allowed," not only terms of rules (especially as there are some players that will twist said rules into game-breaking contortions if you allow them to) but also regarding what's allowed for building characters.

Well it went.. amazing! We ran through some creation and a Mos Shuuta variant (they're now supposed to run a spice shipment for Teemo) and everyone had a great time. The level of player involvement built in to this system had them engaged and moving at lightspeed. Instead of sitting back, waiting for an initiative turn, people were hovered over a scribbled-on white board like their lives depended on it.

Player x had already rolled a non force user and brought no qualms to the table, so all is well.

24 minutes ago, JskyWalker said:

Well it went.. amazing! .....

Player x had already rolled a non force user and brought no qualms to the table, so all is well.

Glad to hear it!!! It really is about "the play" and not so much which career and specs you have. You can always play another campaign down the road and explorer other options.