Hello,

I have a question about Collector Worm: if the creature Collector Worm fights is destroyed, does Collector Worm's " fight: " ability still resolve ? Rules are unclear and seems to contradict itself:

1. ABILITY, CARD ABILITY An ability is the special game text a card contributes to the game. unless an ability explicitly references an out-of-play area (such as a hand, deck, archives, or discard pile), that ability can only interact with cards that are in play.

2. LEAVES PLAY When a card moves from an in–play zone to an out-of-play zone in which the identities of cards are hidden from the opponent (such as a player’s hand, deck, or archives), any pending effects that are currently or about to interact with that card no longer do so, unless a card effect explicitly states that it interacts with that zone.

As the discard pile (where the creature Collector Worm fights goes if he destroy it) is not an out-of-play zone in which the identities of cards are hidden from the opponent, what happens exactly? Is the creature still archived or not?

Thanks !

No, If a creature with a fight ability is destroyed in a fight, it's fight ability doesn't get to happen.

28 minutes ago, ilikesanta said:

No, If a creature with a fight ability is destroyed in a fight, it's fight ability doesn't get to happen.

I do agree with you but that is not what was asked.

The discard pile is not an out-of-play zone, so I am very confident that if Collector Worm fights a creature and destroys it, the creature is still archived per Worm's fight ability.

31 minutes ago, ilikesanta said:

No, If a creature with a fight ability is destroyed in a fight, it's fight ability doesn't get to happen.

He's asking about the other direction. If the target of Collector Worm dies, what happens.

I vote that the text does not resolve as the target is no longer present; the game does not "remember" whether the card in the discard pile is the same as the card in play. (helpful in case you have multiple copies floating around)

Someone remind me: did they rule that fight text happens before destroyed text? If C.Worm fights a creature with biomatrix backup, which archive does it go to? (I'd vote to the Worm's controller's archive)

1 hour ago, Simplegarak said:

He's asking about the other direction. If the target of Collector Worm dies, what happens.

I vote that the text does not resolve as the target is no longer present; the game does not "remember" whether the card in the discard pile is the same as the card in play. (helpful in case you have multiple copies floating around)

Someone remind me: did they rule that fight text happens before destroyed text? If C.Worm fights a creature with biomatrix backup, which archive does it go to? (I'd vote to the Worm's controller's archive)

The creature is destroyed, then the Worm doesn't have a creature to archive since it is in the discard pile and that's it.

For the Biomatrix Backup question, the Worm wouldn't archive it if it is destroyed. And Biomatrix wouldn't trigger unless it is destroyed.

So either the worm destroys the creature in combat and it goes into its owner's archives d/t Biomatrix, or it isn't destroyed and it is archived by the Worm.

10 hours ago, EntropyGuardian said:

The creature is destroyed, then the Worm doesn't have a creature to archive since it is in the discard pile and that's it.

By what ruling? I haven’t seen anything that suggests a fight ability can’t interact with a card in the discard pile. Looking at the rules for fight, destroyed, leaves play, archives, the only time a fight ability can’t interact with a destroyed creature would be if it somehow goes into the archive, your hand or back into your deck.

Consider Overlord Greking; by the same logic being used here the creature being destroyed goes to the discard pile and any pending abilities or effects that would apply are canceled, making Overlord Greking’s constant ability useless.

Garak I don’t think they ever did rule on that - that is one of the processes many have asked to be defined more fully. I would say if Collector Worm fought and destroyed a creature with Bio-Backup, then the creature’s destroyed ability would resolve, archiving the creature. Then Worm’s fight ability resolves, but since he creature is in an out-of-Play zone that is hidden the creature would not change archives.

4 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

By what ruling? I haven’t seen anything that suggests a fight ability can’t interact with a card in the discard pile. Looking at the rules for fight, destroyed, leaves play, archives, the only time a fight ability can’t interact with a destroyed creature would be if it somehow goes into the archive, your hand or back into your deck.

I agree, but the rule about card ability seems to state otherwise:

Quote

ABILITY, CARD ABILITY An ability is the special game text a card contributes to the game. unless an ability explicitly references an out-of-play area (such as a hand, deck, archives, or discard pile), that ability can only interact with cards that are in play.

That's why I think it's so confusing.

EDIT: I was thinking about the same example of Overlord Greking, but this card ability specifically targets destroyed creatures, while Collector Worm doesn't.

That's a good point. I admit myself embarrassed as that was right in your first post. Blame the beginning of the glossary where it says to only look up concepts as they come into play. That's another frustrating thing, to look up 4-5 keywords in the glossary but then realize later what you missed was in a 6th one. Maybe if it wasn't so fragmented.

It would also help if FFG would clearly define out-of-play areas, as well as give a comprehensive list of timing processes - like when destroyed, fight and constant abilities trigger during fights.

Did I just join a group of members who have been advocating that for months? How the times change...

I'll concede on the Collector Worm. Although it might be worth going to the Rules Submission Form for an official answer, as I could still see the intent being it archives but since everything is so vague they didn't feel the need to say "even if it has been destroyed." Worms are scavengers after all.

13 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

By what ruling? I haven’t seen anything that suggests a fight ability can’t interact with a card in the discard pile. Looking at the rules for fight, destroyed, leaves play, archives, the only time a fight ability can’t interact with a destroyed creature would be if it somehow goes into the archive, your hand or back into your deck.

Someone on Reddit claimed that they emailed Fantasy Flight and got this response:

Quote

Collector Worm’s “Fight” ability does not happen until after damage is dealt from the fight and the enemy creature is destroyed and placed in the discard pile. At that point, Collector Worm is no longer able to archive it based on the rule that abilities only interact cards in play by default: “Unless an ability explicitly references an out-of-play area (such as a hand, deck, archives, or discard pile), that ability can only interact with cards that are in play.” Collector Worm’s ability does not refer to interacting with cards in the discard pile, so it cannot archive the creature from the discard pile.

On 6/21/2019 at 11:08 AM, TheSpitfired said:

It would also help if FFG would clearly define out-of-play areas, as well as give a comprehensive list of timing processes - like when destroyed, fight and constant abilities trigger during fights.

I just wish they would embrace the "active player decides ties" rule. It's elegant, it was already listed in the rules, and it would solve 99% of the problems. Then the rule team could just have a form letter with "those things would happen simultaneously, the active player decides." Then spend the rest of their time answering "yes" or "no" to "do [x] and [y] happen simultaneously?"