According to me Vader is quite good if used properly. And it is even better when used along the Tank or the Emperor.

The only possible change would be some force power to give him jump or some sort of force speed (velocity becomes 2 for one turn but you have to exhaust it).

Sincerely speaking also Jyn Erso is very powerful.

And when considering a commander or operative, you should consider also the command cards the bring along. Eg. Director KRennic has nothing strong in his stats: poor attack, less trhan average defense, a good amount of wounds, average courage value. But his real power are his command cards and two of his special rules: cunning and entourage. But it costs the same of Leia

12 hours ago, SirCormac said:

I agree on the X-Wing points thing. As for Vader, I'll believe it when I see it. I think he's fundamentally broken and point won't fix him. I think he's objectively worse than Luke, for 40 points more. Personally, I don't think my fix goes far enough.

I not sure you know how to use him i find that ppl just say unit bad when they don't know how to use him he is a if played right he can be a huge benefit i say they only thing he need is -10 points as saber throw is a auto include but with saber throw and force push he is quite effective and his double move is actually very fast you just need to be smart in turn 0 to win with him you need stay away from long march.

Ok, here we go.

For those who think Vader is 'competetive' or that competetive players play him, that is simply false. Check Invader League. No one took him for the Elims. He sucks.

Now, I can back up my claim as to why Vader is objectively worse than Luke, IN EVERY CATEGORY. Here we go.

1. Health: Vader seems like he has more health, and you'll hear people say you need to hit him 16 times to kill him. This is false. Vader doesn't have 8 health, he has 7. If you disagree, then you believe his 1-pip is called Ambush. If his 1-pip is to mean anything, then Vader has 7 health. He Also has '-' courage. This means that if Vader is fired at TWICE in a whole game where suppression would have gained him cover, and Luke was in a similar circumstance, then Luke and Vader have the same health. Period. Any future shots actually mean Luke has MORE health. Also, Luke has Stims. And is cheaper. Thus, Vader has worse health.

2. Dodges/Master of the Force: It may seem like Vader can get a bunch of dodges for free, and this makes him better than Luke, but this isn't true. Because Luke has 2 cards that give him dodges (and Vader only 1), and Luke is fast and can jump out of LOS blocking cover to close to melee, Luke doesn't need the crutch of Force Reflexes, he just leans on his cards. Thus Vader's 'free' dodge comes at a hefty price, making him even more expensive than Luke. Keep in mind Vader must activate to get those dodges while Luke doesn't.

3. Damage: Because Luke is 50% faster than Vader, he can close very quickly. Both Vader and Luke do NOT want to engage in range shooting. If you use them for ranged attacks, you have misspent your money. They NEED to deliver their payload via Melee attacks. Luke can make this happen very quickly, while Vader is banking on making his presence felt in turns 4-6, but by then it may be too late. Saber throw sucks, and half the time results in only 1 suppression and no dead models.

4. Tactical flexibility: Luke can grab boxes. He can change where he is depending on battlefield conditions. He can force the fight to the enemy. Vader only works on two objectives: Key positions and Intercept. If the objective isn't those, Vader will go somewhere that doesn't matter and won't be able to reorient himself.

5. Command cards: Vader's cards suck. Luke's are amazing. We are know and fear SOS, and Vader's is a paultry comparison. Vader has to take damage to get one more activation where he only gets 1 action. What makes SOS so awesome is the immediate ability to kill a key enemy unit, Vader has to wait, giving that unit an opportunity to counter. As for 2 pips, it isn't even close, as Vader's 2-pip might as well be Push, while Luke's gives 2 dodges. As for 3-pips, Vader's might be the best in the game, but he's so slow it is hard to make it payoff in a timely matter.

6. Upgrade slots: It may seem that Luke has 2 Force, 1 Gear, and Vader has 3 Force, but this is false. Vader has only 2 Force, because one is forcibly sucked up by Saber Throw to make him functional. This means that both Luke and Vader have the same amount of Force slots, but Luke gets a gear. Also, having more varied slots is clearly better than a bunch of the same. So not only does Luke have more slots than Vader, he also has more variety.

In short, yes, objectively, Vader is worse than Luke. I am convinced that if both were available to both factions, and they both cost 160, Vader would still never see play.

@SirCormac, Vader seemed pretty competitive to me in this game:

I realize it's just one game, but it's something we can look at versus just theorycrafting. It's also a good example of how to run Vader effectively.

1 hour ago, SirCormac said:

Ok, here we go.

For those who think Vader is 'competetive' or that competetive players play him, that is simply false. Check Invader League. No one took him for the Elims. He sucks.

Jumping from, "no one in a highly group think extreme competitive format takes Vader", to "he sucks", is quite a stretch.

Plenty of folks do well with Vader at RPQs and he's shown up in late rounds at major tourneys.

Is he the most efficient, maximally flexible, forgiving of mistakes, no downsides character, auto include if you want to win Worlds, character? Absolutely not. Oddly ... nobody is claiming that.

Does he suck? Worse than the T-47? Far from it. There are plenty of units that don't see play in the hypercompettive scene that are far from terrible.

Nonetheless, by all means I will very happily take my Vader "still fun and thematic and challenging to play list" + 30 free points, against whatever you want to bring in your homebrew format!

Vader is my 2nd favorite commander on the Imperial side. And that’s only because I really like Veers command cards.

He is fine as is.

1 hour ago, CaptainRocket said:

Jumping from, "no one in a highly group think extreme competitive format takes Vader", to "he sucks", is quite a stretch.

Granularity in opinions is not exactly a strong suit of the internet. Its not really a stretch because most people have little ground in between.

I will say, I think Vader is bad for reasons mentioned. That's not saying he does nothing. His flee protection can be very powerful and he can take on an AT-ST given the chance. How much is what he does worth? Honestly, not sure. I'll say that if the goal is to make him tanky, he's got to go way down to like.... 150ish or change something on his card. That sounds crazy, but I imagine its probably where he needs to be. That's where the granularity lies. He's not "worthless" but its an uphill battle probably about in the range of forgetting to deploy a sniper team. Not enough to lose on its own merits, but enough to feel like you're behind all game.

Congrats mate. You are able to not use Vader properly when you are thinking he must actually obviously reach melee. Typical error.

And when seeing what the people play at the adepticon, allow me to say that the only list which is "really in the meta where We should be now" is the saboteurs list (list I play since September 2018 and people kept telling me it was crap).

Adepticon's list are not good. Except in a group of players who highly thinks of them (or, correction in my sentence : in a group of people of which net-listers highly think of them). Try to think and play by yourself outside of the box.

You are wrong. I never felt "behind all the game" while playing my Vader list, even against the so called meta team. Correction even : I was the one putting this feel in my opponents.

11 minutes ago, RaevenKS said:

Congrats mate. You are able to not use Vader properly when you are thinking he must actually obviously reach melee. Typical error.

So you're ok with paying 225 for the damage a Stormtrooper squad puts out. Math works out to me!

13 minutes ago, RaevenKS said:

And when seeing what the people play at the adepticon, allow me to say that the only list which is "really in the meta where We should be now" is the saboteurs list (list I play since September 2018 and people kept telling me it was crap).

Adepticon's list are not good. Except in a group of players who highly thinks of them (or, correction in my sentence : in a group of people of which net-listers highly think of them). Try to think and play by yourself outside of the box.

You are wrong. I never felt "behind all the game" while playing my Vader list, even against the so called meta team. Correction even : I was the one putting this feel in my opponents.

Please Notify me when Vader does anything of note at any tournament. I'll be waiting.

I can certainly use him without reaching melee. I can do the same with Veers at nearly a third the cost.

Congrats on your success though. Looking forward to seeing all the net-list Vader lists when you top Worlds.

5 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I can certainly use him without reaching melee. I can do the same with Veers at nearly a third the cost.

Congrats on your success though. Looking forward to seeing all the net-list Vader lists when you top Worlds.

I am planning on it. But for European guys, there is no way to enter worlds this year by competiting. So you will wait next year. I am not afraid.

In my local area, I already make the meta switch a few time. A few are still playing the "Americans meta", and they get almost all crushed. Next tournament 30th June for me is 24 players, I'm planning to play a 5 vehicles rebs list (thanks to someone on the forum) because I will win with it. Because everything is playable when you make no mistakes, and lists stronger than the "meta ones" are usable and you make no mistakes.

Yes, a competitive player make NO mistake. So they don't need to play a newb lists. Thymey should play a "difficult to manage" lists. But in every minis games I play, Americans were playing how they know to play (which is not bad in concept).

I'm sorry to tell it again this way but : worlds this year is only almost an American country tournaments. So you will play with your American meta lists, and you will think only those lists are good, because nothing else would be truly played and managed by a really good players (better than me in Europe, clearly).

On 6/18/2019 at 3:44 PM, SirCormac said:

I think if FFG made these changes, Vader would still not be competitive, unfortunately.

Stop comparing him to Luke. It’s a false equivalency because no Imperial army can choose Luke. If you want to homebrew him into parity with Luke, just use Luke’s stats for your Vader mini.

“Competitive” is the problem. Fix Vader, break something else. That’s what the competitive approach does by definition. It is to purposefully find ways to imbalance the list in your favor.

@SirCormac

The point adjustment to Vader (20 points) and the addition of free saber throw (10 point value) mean an effective gain of 30 points.

That's pretty extreme. It also leads to the question: Who is Saber Throw for? It would present only marginal value over the built in saber throw for vader (arguably worse in some circumstances), and it's already near useless for Luke.

I imagine it would lead to Vader being used significantly more often, and the bonus 30 points make it very likely that Vader will always show up with Force Reflexes, Force Choke, and Force Push.

Gut reaction is that seems absurdly overpowered to get all that for the exact same price as Palpatine with no upgrades.

I haven't run Jyn, but I don't know what the justification is for dropping her cost to only 10 points over Leia and 20 points cheaper(!) than Han.

Just doing a side by side on their stats:

No difference: Jyn, Leia, Han - 6 wounds, 2 speed, surge crit, surge defense, white defense die

Jyn advantage: Courage 3 (Han and Leia have 2)
Melee: 4 black dice w/suppressive (2.5 ave) (Leia has 3 black dice (1.875 ave), Han has 3 white dice (1.125))
Ranged: 2.125 ave @ range 2 vs Leia's 1.875, and Han's 1.75 x 2 (requires 2 targets w/in range 2); and Jyn can hit out to range 3 for 1.625 ave.

What does the Commanding Presence change actually 'do'? (besides issuing orders and for panic checks)

Restricting the use of any non-unique units is a negative play experience, and it's usually a bad idea to make a game less fun on purpose.

With no exhaust, what's the justification to take the z-6 or dlt-19 over the MPL / HH-12? (MPL brings better individual dice with more key words; HH-12 is more damage and more impact). Won't this just lead to nothing but the current exhaust weapons in play?

@LunarSol
"That's just good money after bad though. You're spending 300+ points for a guy to walk slowly across the field and kill a unit towards the end of the game."

You don't need to bring IRG, but if you think you're going to face Luke, I can't imagine why you wouldn't just to crush him.

Second, Vader doesn't need to cross the entire map, he just needs to reach an objective and make it untenable for Rebels to capture. Nothing in the game is going to contest a location in the face of Vader.

Third, how exactly are you planning on tying Vader up, and with what? Only Luke and sabine are pierce immune, and even then Vader's attack is no joke, and Force Push ensures that Vader can always disengage and still double-move attack, if desired.

IRG aren't necessary, but if you take them Luke gets neutralized.

@jocke01

They should continue to print point costs on cards.

It might be fine to have an app that applies solely to organized play, that would feature fluid point costs specifically for any given tournament (it would certainly be interesting to see incentivized point cost adjustments to 'flavor' any given tournament.

But, experimentation with point costs... that shouldn't come at the expense of the normal game.

X-wing 2.0's no printed costs is controversial for a reason.

@Fistofriles
"I not sure you know how to use him i find that ppl just say unit bad when they don't know how to use him he is a if played right he can be a huge benefit i say they only thing he need is -10 points as saber throw is a auto include but with saber throw and force push he is quite effective and his double move is actually very fast you just need to be smart in turn 0 to win with him you need stay away from long march."

Personally I like Force Choke more. I'd rather auto-eliminate an expensive and effective heavy weapons mini from a unit than have to trust to dice to get through heavy cover.

1 hour ago, SirCormac said:

So you're ok with paying 225 for the damage a Stormtrooper squad puts out.

I’d pay 800 points for something with zero damage output if it gets me more victory points on turn 6 than the opponent. The battle does not always go to the most damage output, nor the race to the longer movement ruler. For much is much is left to time and chance.

1 hour ago, SirCormac said:

Please Notify me when Vader does anything of note at any tournament

I thought this was a HOMEbrew thread. Who cares about tournaments when we’re at home?

2 hours ago, LunarSol said:

I can certainly use him without reaching melee. I can do the same with Veers at nearly a third the cost.

If Vader is not in melee in a game, it's because your opponent properly fears him (though I've never had someone stay totally out of reach all game). The value Vader brings to the table before he is actually in melee, is in his area control. He projects a such a threat that can keep your opponent from coming out at all, or disrupt his ability to secure objectives. Vader can make your opponent really make hard choices about jumping out and getting deleted, or not being effective for a turn.

Veers doesn't have that area denial control ability, nor does he shrug off suppression and maintain an infinite courage bubble.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

@LunarSol
"That's just good money after bad though. You're spending 300+ points for a guy to walk slowly across the field and kill a unit towards the end of the game."

You don't need to bring IRG, but if you think you're going to face Luke, I can't imagine why you wouldn't just to crush him.

Second, Vader doesn't need to cross the entire map, he just needs to reach an objective and make it untenable for Rebels to capture. Nothing in the game is going to contest a location in the face of Vader.

Third, how exactly are you planning on tying Vader up, and with what? Only Luke and sabine are pierce immune, and even then Vader's attack is no joke, and Force Push ensures that Vader can always disengage and still double-move attack, if desired.

IRG aren't necessary, but if you take them Luke gets neutralized.

In terms of tying Vader up, you can run just about anything into melee with him. He won't reliably kill a unit in my experience in a single go, so it will often keep him busy for 2 turns. That's enough, on top of the 2-3 turns it takes him to get into position in the first place, to mean he's spent the game wiping out 1 relatively cheap unit. It also generally buys enough time that when he's done there's plenty in position to kill him.

I have found both Choke and Push more effective in the long run. It's a shame he loses out on a lot of free attacks he'd get with Saber Throw, but that just doesn't reliably cut through the heavy cover most suppressed units have.

What if Exhaustable weapons simply had an ammo count instead of an exhaust effect? Or give us an upgrade that lets us refresh a weapon once or twice a game for a free action. Like Extra ammo or something.

On 6/18/2019 at 5:34 PM, jocke01 said:

Rest looks pretty much what the game could look like with a patch. It's a shame ffg didn't do the x-wing app for legion.

Yea, it'd be great to have an adaptive way to fix design-costing mistakes other than having to wait a few years for a Second Edition. Alas.

Not a fan of any of these changes. Then again, I hate "house rules" in general.

19 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Stop comparing him to Luke. It’s a false equivalency because no Imperial army can choose Luke. If you want to homebrew him into parity with Luke, just use Luke’s stats for your Vader mini.

I agree and disagree here. Comparing units between factions is perfectly valid, especially since the gulf in abilities between most Imperial and Rebel units isn't that vast. However, I do agree that comparing Vader to Luke is tricky, in the same way aguing the merits of a scalpel vs a hammer is. They have very different playstyles, and trying to use one like the other is setting yourself up for failure.

Never tell me the Odds has a good srtucle on Vader if you're interested. In particular, the bit on his command cards is worth a read, because you're greatly underestimating what Vader's 2-pip can do.