Hello all,

First, this is not a topic to get mad about. If you feel the game is perfectly balanced, that's fine. What I am looking to do here is an adjustment of the rules for an optional homebrew rebalancing of the game. I am specifically thinking of using this for my local scenes Fall legion group as an alternative style of play to provide more variety and to give overlooked units a chance to actually see play. I am bringing it here to see if I have missed something someone has found helpful (such as a unit that is overpriced or a homebrew rule that has helped the game). Anyways, honest and helpful critiques are welcome. Anyways, here is the list:

Legion Rules Adjustments

Speeder X – A unit with Speeder X may never have its cover reduced below X by Sharpshooter.

Vehicles – When a Vehicle performs an attack against a trooper, it may treat any Impact X it has as Pierce X/2, rounded down.

Pass Mechanic – If you have less activations than your opponent, when it is your turn to activate, you may ‘pass’, and play returns to your opponent.

Points Adjustments (units)

Darth Vader – 180

Jyn Erso – 100

T-47 – 145

Points adjustments (upgrades)

Long-Range Comms – 5

Targeting Scopes – 3

Comms Jammer - 5

Errata

Darth Vader – Gains a Ranged Weapon, Range 1-2, 3 Reds, Critical 1

Strike Teams – Card gains 2 ‘dots’, meaning that you can only take up to 2 in a list.

Commanding Presence – Should read: For all purposes, your command range is up to range 4.

The 4 basic trooper exhaust weapons – All lose the exhaust mechanic.

Any constructive feedback is welcome!

In our first games we didn’t recognize what the exhaust icon was and thus didn’t apply exhaust to ion guns or missile launchers. I think the games were better for that.

I think knocking 30 points of Vader essentially is two powerful there no need for saber throw card as well. I think that you could just include saber throw and knock 10 points and you may still be to powerful I agree jyn to over priced but how about pathfinders they could use some help and exhaust thing is clunky so ok with lossing that but think dl 19 over powerful i lose impact on them.

Some nice ideas.

I like the the idea of some of the heavy weapons that are currently exhaust to have a set number of charges/munitions rather than exhaust.

i am warm to the idea of a pass Mechanic but I think it would be better off being limited to once a turn or something.

38 minutes ago, Fistofriles said:

I think knocking 30 points of Vader essentially is two powerful there no need for saber throw card as well. I think that you could just include saber throw and knock 10 points and you may still be to powerful I agree jyn to over priced but how about pathfinders they could use some help and exhaust thing is clunky so ok with lossing that but think dl 19 over powerful i lose impact on them.

Thanks for the input. With Vader, here's the thing. Compare a 180 point Vader with the built-in Saber throw to a Luke with Push and Stims for 178. Yeah, Luke is still better. That's my thinking. I'm not too worried about the Impact on the exhaust weapons because they are still ridiculously expensive and I have tried to buff armor.

1 minute ago, Dosiere said:

i am warm to the idea of a pass Mechanic but I think it would be better off being limited to once a turn or something.

Interesting. Not a bad idea.

3 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

Thanks for the input. With Vader, here's the thing. Compare a 180 point Vader with the built-in Saber throw to a Luke with Push and Stims for 178. Yeah, Luke is still better. That's my thinking. I'm not too worried about the Impact on the exhaust weapons because they are still ridiculously expensive and I have tried to buff armor.

But they're in differnet armies.The whole ecosystem can rapidly become unbalanced if [storm]troopers are better than [Rebel Unit] and Imperials don't have to pay a points-sink for their commander to make up for it. This stuff can go haywire fast.

Just now, TauntaunScout said:

But they're in differnet armies.The whole ecosystem can rapidly become unbalanced if [storm]troopers are better than [Rebel Unit] and Imperials don't have to pay a points-sink for their commander to make up for it. This stuff can go haywire fast.

Each unit should be properly balanced if the game is made correctly. Stormtroopers are more expensive than Rebel troopers, they pay for that save. They also are heavily Aim dependent, and can't move and shoot as effectively as Rebel Troopers. Vader is bad. I mean, baaaaad. Every time I have played him with friends (regardless of who has him) we are blown away by how bad he is. Even at 180 and a Saber Throw with Critical 1, Vader will be lucky to kill 1 guy on his death march across the battlefield, while Luke can jump over terrain and kill a whole unit. Also, Vader's 1 Pip and 2 Pip suck, while Luke has amazing cards. Frankly, I think Vader should be cheaper than Luke, based purely on a comparison. I think Luke is waaaaay better in all categories. But, to be conservative, I put Vader at 180 with Saber throw. I think if FFG made these changes, Vader would still not be competitive, unfortunately.

Very good ideas. Would love to see a decent sampling of games using these rules to see how the meta would be effected.

I wonder about the strike team limitation of 2 teams though. Snipers would still be very powerful, and with a lot of competitive lists running 2 teams anyway, how much change would it really cause? And sabateours might be useless. Most people who run sabatours run 3 strike teams, I think. The proposed solution is elegant but may not have the desired effect.

Hmm I think vader point reduction is a bit much.

Rest looks pretty much what the game could look like with a patch. It's a shame ffg didn't do the x-wing app for legion.

2 hours ago, SirCormac said:

Each unit should be properly balanced if the game is made correctly.

That's not how faction-wide balance works. In many reasonably well balanced games, 250 points worth of peasants can't possibly hurt a 250 point dragon.

2 hours ago, SirCormac said:

Stormtroopers are more expensive than Rebel troopers,

They're just an arbitrary noun for an example hence the brackets. I gotta go back to using non-Star Wars nouns on here.

2 hours ago, SirCormac said:

Also, Vader's 1 Pip and 2 Pip suck, while Luke has amazing cards.

Imperials can't take Luke so that doesn't matter.

2 hours ago, SirCormac said:

Vader would still not be competitive, unfortunately.

Competition is the problem, not Vader.

Critiques listed in no particular order:

The point adjustment to Vader (20 points) and the addition of free saber throw (10 point value) mean an effective gain of 30 points.

That's pretty extreme. It also leads to the question: Who is Saber Throw for? It would present only marginal value over the built in saber throw for vader (arguably worse in some circumstances), and it's already near useless for Luke.

I imagine it would lead to Vader being used significantly more often, and the bonus 30 points make it very likely that Vader will always show up with Force Reflexes, Force Choke, and Force Push.

Gut reaction is that seems absurdly overpowered to get all that for the exact same price as Palpatine with no upgrades.

I haven't run Jyn, but I don't know what the justification is for dropping her cost to only 10 points over Leia and 20 points cheaper(!) than Han.

Just doing a side by side on their stats:

No difference: Jyn, Leia, Han - 6 wounds, 2 speed, surge crit, surge defense, white defense die

Jyn advantage: Courage 3 (Han and Leia have 2)
Melee: 4 black dice w/suppressive (2.5 ave) (Leia has 3 black dice (1.875 ave), Han has 3 white dice (1.125))
Ranged: 2.125 ave @ range 2 vs Leia's 1.875, and Han's 1.75 x 2 (requires 2 targets w/in range 2); and Jyn can hit out to range 3 for 1.625 ave.

What does the Commanding Presence change actually 'do'? (besides issuing orders and for panic checks)

Restricting the use of any non-unique units is a negative play experience, and it's usually a bad idea to make a game less fun on purpose.

With no exhaust, what's the justification to take the z-6 or dlt-19 over the MPL / HH-12? (MPL brings better individual dice with more key words; HH-12 is more damage and more impact). Won't this just lead to nothing but the current exhaust weapons in play?

13 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Critiques listed in no particular order:

The point adjustment to Vader (20 points) and the addition of free saber throw (10 point value) mean an effective gain of 30 points.

That's pretty extreme. It also leads to the question: Who is Saber Throw for? It would present only marginal value over the built in saber throw for vader (arguably worse in some circumstances), and it's already near useless for Luke.

I imagine it would lead to Vader being used significantly more often, and the bonus 30 points make it very likely that Vader will always show up with Force Reflexes, Force Choke, and Force Push.

Gut reaction is that seems absurdly overpowered to get all that for the exact same price as Palpatine with no upgrades

In my opinion, Vader is horrible. Like T47 levels horrible. Palpatine is actually really good, and just needs Anger and Esteemed Leader to be effective. Vader, even with the cost reduction, would still really struggle to see play. He's just...not...good. Even with a point reduction, he still has the worst threat range of any character in the game. Palpatine is slow, but has a powerful Range 1-2 attack that devastates (it is as strong as Luke's saber). Vader, even with these changes, will still do this:

1. Walk toward the enemy very slowly

2. Throw a saber to maybe do 1 damage

3. Die before he gets into melee

In other words, he'll still suck, but the points reduction may make him reasonable. He's a badly designed character, there's just no getting around it. His command cards suck (except for his 3 pip, except he's so slow he can't use it) and his damage is pathetic. Nobody complained about the 30 point reduction to the T47 because we all know it sucks, but so does Vader.

17 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I haven't run Jyn, but I don't know what the justification is for dropping her cost to only 10 points over Leia and 20 points cheaper(!) than Han.

Just doing a side by side on their stats:

No difference: Jyn, Leia, Han - 6 wounds, 2 speed, surge crit, surge defense, white defense die

Jyn advantage: Courage 3 (Han and Leia have 2)
Melee: 4 black dice w/suppressive (2.5 ave) (Leia has 3 black dice (1.875 ave), Han has 3 white dice (1.125))
Ranged: 2.125 ave @ range 2 vs Leia's 1.875, and Han's 1.75 x 2 (requires 2 targets w/in range 2); and Jyn can hit out to range 3 for 1.625 ave.

Jyn is pretty universally regarded as significantly overcosted. She isn't bad, but way too expensive for what she does. She averages 1 kill per turn, which compared to Han and Sabine, both at her price point, they kill about 2 models per turn and put 2 suppression out. Her offense is actually worse than Leia, since Leia averages about 2 models killed per shot with her Sharpshooter 2. So Jyn has the worst offense of any rebel hero. She has pretty good strategic abilities, but without the raw offense she isn't worth taking. She needs a drastic cost reduction.

20 minutes ago, Derrault said:

What does the Commanding Presence change actually 'do'? (besides issuing orders and for panic checks)

As of now, Commanding presence only helps with issuing orders, which for 10 points is a joke. Clearly, FFG though the power to issue orders was more relevant than the game actually bore out over time. All of the 'issue order's upgrades are never taken (Battle Meditation, Long-Range Comms, Commanding Presence). If Commanding presence actually aided in panic checks, it might actually be usable.

21 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Restricting the use of any non-unique units is a negative play experience, and it's usually a bad idea to make a game less fun on purpose.

Getting rid of Triple Snipers reduces no one's experiences, but opens up the possibility of actually playing different special forces. Sniper strike teams have kind of broken the game.

23 minutes ago, Derrault said:

With no exhaust, what's the justification to take the z-6 or dlt-19 over the MPL / HH-12? (MPL brings better individual dice with more key words; HH-12 is more damage and more impact). Won't this just lead to nothing but the current exhaust weapons in play?

All the exhaust weapons are about 50% more expensive than their counterparts, and most of them suck even with taking away the exhaust mechanic. I think the only competetive one would be the Fleet troopers grenade launcher. The Ion gun for the Snows is a total joke, the Ion gun for the rebels is ok but expensive, and the Rocket launcher for the Storms is barely better but comes with cumbersome, so I don't think they would see much play, even with this fix.

3 hours ago, Proton Torpedo said:

Very good ideas. Would love to see a decent sampling of games using these rules to see how the meta would be effected.

I wonder about the strike team limitation of 2 teams though. Snipers would still be very powerful, and with a lot of competitive lists running 2 teams anyway, how much change would it really cause? And sabateours might be useless. Most people who run sabatours run 3 strike teams, I think. The proposed solution is elegant but may not have the desired effect.

Most competitive lists take 3 Snipers, just check the Invader League. Also, you can run 3 saboteurs or Snipers, but you'd have to take the Main squad in addition to the Strike teams to do it. I actually run saboteurs, and think it would still be worth it. There is just no reason to take anything other than a Sniper team in that slot. Now, at least one special forces slot would be 'open' to a 'less efficient' choice. 2 Snipers I think is ok. 3 is oppressive.

2 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Hmm I think vader point reduction is a bit much.

Rest looks pretty much what the game could look like with a patch. It's a shame ffg didn't do the x-wing app for legion.

I agree on the X-Wing points thing. As for Vader, I'll believe it when I see it. I think he's fundamentally broken and point won't fix him. I think he's objectively worse than Luke, for 40 points more. Personally, I don't think my fix goes far enough.

19 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

In my opinion, Vader is horrible. Like T47 levels horrible. Palpatine is actually really good, and just needs Anger and Esteemed Leader to be effective. Vader, even with the cost reduction, would still really struggle to see play. He's just...not...good. Even with a point reduction, he still has the worst threat range of any character in the game. Palpatine is slow, but has a powerful Range 1-2 attack that devastates (it is as strong as Luke's saber). Vader, even with these changes, will still do this:

1. Walk toward the enemy very slowly

2. Throw a saber to maybe do 1 damage

3. Die before he gets into melee

In other words, he'll still suck, but the points reduction may make him reasonable. He's a badly designed character, there's just no getting around it. His command cards suck (except for his 3 pip, except he's so slow he can't use it) and his damage is pathetic. Nobody complained about the 30 point reduction to the T47 because we all know it sucks, but so does Vader.

I don't agree with your analysis. There are competitive players who still play Vader, and if you're not trying to win Worlds, Vader is totally viable and super fun.

Vader walks faster than you think. He needs to use cover. He needs to use dodges. He really likes some IRGs and Medical Droids around. When it comes to round 3-4 he starts laying waste. If your games consistently goto round 6 Vader is in the thick and terrifying. Three pip is great for the free dodge, even if you're not playing for suppression. Two pip makes for excellent shenanigans/jank, such as slingshotting some sabs to detonate, or bumrushing some vaporators. One pip is ... a second attack (combine properly with force choke or force pull and it's also fun shenanigans)!

I play Vader pretty much exclusively, and while I wouldn't mind buffs, he's pretty decent and underplayed. By all means however I would *love* to join your league and toss in an extra force power plus a sab to my list!

53 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

In my opinion, Vader is horrible. Like T47 levels horrible. Palpatine is actually really good, and just needs Anger and Esteemed Leader to be effective. Vader, even with the cost reduction, would still really struggle to see play. He's just...not...good. Even with a point reduction, he still has the worst threat range of any character in the game. Palpatine is slow, but has a powerful Range 1-2 attack that devastates (it is as strong as Luke's saber). Vader, even with these changes, will still do this:

1. Walk toward the enemy very slowly

2. Throw a saber to maybe do 1 damage

3. Die before he gets into melee

In other words, he'll still suck, but the points reduction may make him reasonable. He's a badly designed character, there's just no getting around it. His command cards suck (except for his 3 pip, except he's so slow he can't use it) and his damage is pathetic. Nobody complained about the 30 point reduction to the T47 because we all know it sucks, but so does Vader.

Jyn is pretty universally regarded as significantly overcosted. She isn't bad, but way too expensive for what she does. She averages 1 kill per turn, which compared to Han and Sabine, both at her price point, they kill about 2 models per turn and put 2 suppression out. Her offense is actually worse than Leia, since Leia averages about 2 models killed per shot with her Sharpshooter 2. So Jyn has the worst offense of any rebel hero. She has pretty good strategic abilities, but without the raw offense she isn't worth taking. She needs a drastic cost reduction.

As of now, Commanding presence only helps with issuing orders, which for 10 points is a joke. Clearly, FFG though the power to issue orders was more relevant than the game actually bore out over time. All of the 'issue order's upgrades are never taken (Battle Meditation, Long-Range Comms, Commanding Presence). If Commanding presence actually aided in panic checks, it might actually be usable.

Getting rid of Triple Snipers reduces no one's experiences, but opens up the possibility of actually playing different special forces. Sniper strike teams have kind of broken the game.

All the exhaust weapons are about 50% more expensive than their counterparts, and most of them suck even with taking away the exhaust mechanic. I think the only competetive one would be the Fleet troopers grenade launcher. The Ion gun for the Snows is a total joke, the Ion gun for the rebels is ok but expensive, and the Rocket launcher for the Storms is barely better but comes with cumbersome, so I don't think they would see much play, even with this fix.

How are you making your Vader approach that he’s dying before he can melee??? Even with zero cover he’s going to average 16 hits to die (which would be an average of 4 attacks by full z-6 squads with no cover at all!)

And with saber throw he can double move and ranged attack farther than a single Luke move and ranged attack, with more, and better, dice.

I think you’re dramatically undervaluing Vader and his capabilities.

I didn’t say anything about the 47, because it doesn’t need defending. It has better offense than Luke, while being faster and attacking at longer range. Oh and it has better defense. If you reduce the point cost then opportunists will smell blood in the water from a mile away. So, feel free to make bad decisions.

Regarding Jyn, unlike Han, Sabine, Luke, and Leia, she can reliably start in a position to make her attack turn 1, and is able (if so desired) to start in a position to circumvent most any cover. Yeah, proper placement is a real skill. The rest of them can’t even target an enemy until they close to range 2. That’s a long way to go.

4 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Hmm I think vader point reduction is a bit much.

Rest looks pretty much what the game could look like with a patch. It's a shame ffg didn't do the x-wing app for legion.

Honestly, in light of the delays and product distribution mishaps, I like that Legion doesn’t have the app for points. Now, if we get a product we can use that product, regardless of waiting for points. Xwing players in Australia and now even the US have wave 4 content but they can’t play with it because they don’t know what it costs.

My LGS hasn’t broken street date and I don’t think they have the content yet, but if I had it I’d want to be able to play it. But now, if I somehow come across Legion content in some way I can use it right away.

Vader's... pretty bad. He's no where near worth his cost, let alone the 25+ points in mandatory upgrades that he's saddled with. He's really no fun to put on the table, as he's far too frail for his cost to march up the table until later in the game and at that point there's just too much table for him to cover. There's really no reason an opponent should let him get attacks off on 2 units over the course of the game and as he's nearly the most expensive piece.... that's kind of a problem. He's just, really quite bad. One of the worst Imperial choices and while I won't go so far as to say he's the worst overall, I think he's easily in the running for most disappointing.

Vader is not bad, he just has a much higher skill floor than Luke. His 2nd command card requires building around (That being said, it is very strong with Snowtroopers, Royal Guards, and Dewbacks), and his 1 pip is clunky but potentially devastating. The biggest issue is the lack of flexibility in his slots; Anger, Saber Throw, Force Reflexes, and Force Push are all really, really good on him and there's no good one to cut. The lack of a command slot also forces you to run Royal Guard to keep him healthy.

That's just good money after bad though. You're spending 300+ points for a guy to walk slowly across the field and kill a unit towards the end of the game. Veers will do something similar for 80 points from the other end of the table on the first or second turn. Vader is very nearly the most fragile piece in the Imperial army for what you pay for him. Palpatine just barely beats him to the bottom but actually has a cannon in that glass and the Sniper teams beat him out if you don't put upgrades on him. He's just fragile, slow, easy to tie up or control and unreliable once he gets to combat. He's not irredeemable because the game itself is pretty solid, but he really lacks in redeeming features and certainly doesn't justify his place as one of the most expensive figures in the entire game.

All great changes!

8 hours ago, SirCormac said:

I agree on the X-Wing points thing. As for Vader, I'll believe it when I see it. I think he's fundamentally broken and point won't fix him. I think he's objectively worse than Luke, for 40 points more. Personally, I don't think my fix goes far enough.

Objectively? No way, his command cards, master of the force, red dice and extra health gives him stuff luke dosen't.

Subjectively, yes then you are right.

5 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Honestly, in light of the delays and product distribution mishaps, I like that Legion doesn’t have the app for points. Now, if we get a product we can use that product, regardless of waiting for points. Xwing players in Australia and now even the US have wave 4 content but they can’t play with it because they don’t know what it costs.

My LGS hasn’t broken street date and I don’t think they have the content yet, but if I had it I’d want to be able to play it. But now, if I somehow come across Legion content in some way I can use it right away.

In the short term sure. However in the long run, the lack of possible balancing changes is going to lead to powercreep and non compedetive units.

Vader does not suck at all. I play him, win (more than 50% of the time) with him, in a 10 activations list...

I don't understand how you can find him "bad". Just learn to use him properly in first hand.