You've hit on a good point the Russian Front has always been very popular amongst wargamers, and it may pull a bunch of folks in. In fact, it may be the most popular front for WWII wargamers.

Personally, it's never been a favorite of mine, but that's just me. I've always enjoyed the Western Front the most, with Africa and the Med being second. Even though the Russian Front isn't my favorite, I'm excited about playing the Reds, and taunting my opponent with my best Dolph Lundgren, Russian-accented "I must break you."

I hope FotB knocks it out of the park for TOI. If the worst happens, though, I'm certain a small group of enthusiastic fans could work something out with FFG to carry on.

Dadgummit now you got me thinking about doing another issue of WOS, but I've got so many other irons in the fire…

Alright, why doesn't this forum post the special characters when I them in my text?!

It makes me look more stupid than usual, if that's possible!

And why isn't there an EDIT function, so I can correct my stupid mistakes? Like leaving the word "insert" out of my last post?!

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!

AnglePark said:

"I must break you." - LOL!!! Me too! I can't wait to play the Russians! And like you, my favorite area to wargame has never been the Russian Front, but rather the Western Front & North Africa.

But ever since the cold war ended, I've been really into the Russian Front, mainly because there is so much there to learn that I'd never had any interest in to any great degree beforehand.

If FFG could cobble up the effort to get a Pacific expansion out, then they'd be in the position of having covered the major theaters and thereby expanding the potential base of gamers interested in WWII. The more interested, the more sales, I would think. Wargamers can be a funny group if you're trying to make a sale to keep a particular item like this alive. Those with an interest in the Russian Front and/or the Pacific may not have even given ToI a second though up to now. By getting the Russian Front represented, that is going to do nothing but help expand the fan base. If the game is faultering from a sales point of view, then it just makes sence to try to increase your fan base.

Normandy may have been a bit premature in the sequence of expansions by that line of thinking. Had that expansion been the Russian front, then this one the Pacific, FFG may have doubled, or even tripled it's potential buying group by now.

But better late than never, in this case. If I were FFG, I'd get a Pacific expansion out as soon as possible after this. Then they ought to be able to tell if the game is going to continue to be a success from a sales point of view. But if the game is flagging now in sales, they really haven't tried to tap into the entire potential market yet for the game.

If they want to experiment with things like scenario books, map expansion packs, and making expansions in theaters already covered, it should be after laying the foundation for the game by hitting all the major areas of interest.

Also, they should immediately adapt a policy of selling the various army units of different nations as a stand alone set, much in the manner of M44. The Brits kinda came at us as a part of the Desert expansion, and then again as part of the Normandy expansion. If you're a gamer with a major interest in North Africa, and not Europe, then you may feel a little angst at needing to buy an entire expansion for something you have no interest in just to fill out the pieces you need for the area of the game you are interested in.

There's nothing wrong with mimicking the successful tactics of your competition! DoW markets M44 with cunning efficiency! Meaning they have pried more money from my wallet than I care to calculate! Good Lord, I even bought a cotton pickin' ruck sack for it, by them!

The Designer Scenario book was one of the neatest things I've seen from a wargame company in a long, long time for ToI. A must have for old grognards and aficionados of the hobby (like me). A great way to make a statement that ToI is not going to justy follow along as an M44 wannabe. But before the game can really stretch it's legs as a competitor to M44, it needs to get the foundation in place. DoW did this for M44, and it has proven successful. It wouldn't hurt FFG to follow suit for ToI, which is a step up on the complexity scale (for your casual gamer types).

Then they can experiment with the whacky and unusual, like map expansions of maps everyone already has. I still don't get that one, and I bought the **** thing! Even now though, I have no idea what I need it for?

AnglePark said:

This is one of the...well, I'll go ahead and say it, worst forums I've ever visited. You get the edit option for like five minutes after you post, then it goes away. If you're as horrible a typist as I am, it can make you shy away from ever even posting for fear of typos.

I guess the idea behind it is to keep the flame wars down, as folks can't go back and undo posts after putting them up. It kinda makes you really think before you post, cause you can't take it back! Then I would guess that would lead to less moderating from FFG's end, so it kinda makes sense from that aspect. Less "policing" for them.

Unfortunately, it also has the effect of causing these boards to be rather stagnant.

I've never even noticed an edit button, even right after posting. I must be looking in the wrong place. Otherwise, that thing would break with me clicking on it all the time!

Don't feel bad, I've bought everything for M'44 as well, and most two times over. I had two of every TOI expansion (except the scenario book), but realized it's not as necessary as other games so I sold the dupes. I prefer the smaller scenarios, anyway, with six to nine boards.

I guess we'll have to keep our fingers, and toes, crossed for the Pacific. Maybe, just maybe, we can convince them to release it next summer since they made us wait two years for FotB!

I see the Edit button!

Why couldn't they put it at the bottom with the other buttons? These eyes aren't what they used to be, and have gotten really bad in the last year alone.

Your not the only one. I have also never seen any edit button...

... but now I did. Man, you realy got to know thats its there to see it...

Grand Stone said:

Hey, you got special characters to work—now I have to figure out why I can't get them to post.

(The dash worked this time. Weird.)

AnglePark said:

I was, at one point, thinking of getting a second copy of the base ToI to paint the Germans in desert colors. DotF would be worth getting a second copy in order to have more desert map boards.

M44, I've noticed, has been edging a little more toward the complex side with some of it's expansions. Their map packs have been introducing new vehicles, and they've recently released breakthrough hard mounted mapboards. IMHO, they're trying to add a little more "bling" to their game in order to attract a little more of the kind of crowd that ToI attracts.

Once I pick up the latest map pack from them, I'll get a double on their British Army pack, which will give me doubles on all of their Army sets & base game. Great game system and super support from DoW.

If ToI can just get a Pacific set out, then it could be considered as a competitor to M44. M44 just gets way too much support from DoW, and that's the key, the game support. I'd be shocked at this point if ToI got a Pacific set out any sooner than 2012.

I will not lobby against anyone's Christmas wish list. I hope for the Pacific fans' sake that ToI eventually publishes such an expansion.

That said, it's already being done by others and apparently with some success. Why not go for something more interesting and imaginative like early WW2 (France 1940). Another idea is an urban warfare expansion...TOI house to house "Sniper!" style incorporating multi-room, multi-story, street level, area style map boards. Six map boards that simulate urban warfare anywhere in Europe (Stalingrad, St. Lo, Caen, Bastogne, Berlin, etc.). Think out of the box!!!

I'd like to see an urban map set too. Maybe fuzzy of the bear will have some city maps?

Cyscott1 said:

Yep, a set of urban terrain boards would be really nice. A couple of sheets of tiles could help with variety, offering differing buildings for each theater. And large bridges (ahem... Arnhem, anyone?).

Urban combat has been discussed before, and I think the conclusion was that some tweaks to balance the tank versus infanteri in urban warfare is needed. In my opinion reducing the concusive firepower to +2 instead of +3 would be a nice change. In addition to better concealment rules.

Bazookajoe said:

The early war stuff is being done too by others, Conflict of Heros Polish expansion comes immediately to mind.

As far as urban warfare, we may just see that with FotB. Normandy brought the destructable buildings, so it just makes sense that we may see some serious urban maps with FotB.

I'm all for thinking "out of the box", but you've also got to get all of your fan base included as well. With HBOs "The Pacific" having just recently been released, it's pretty obvious that this is an important chapter in history. If you go for the "out of the box" thinking, and ignore a huge portion of history, and therefore not include that chapter in your product, then "out of the box" thinking can leave you "out of business". Especially when you are targeting the US market heavily. Now, if you think the market in France is going to yield you more sales than in the United States, then I'd say go ahead and make an early France expansion next. As for me, I'm thinking that the market in the United States is where I'd want to make my money and secure my fan base. In that regard, you've got to show some respect to the heritage of that region, and history says that The Pacific is a huge part of that heritage.

Europen games have been, and are being done quite thoroughly. IMHO, the Pacific just gets a glossing over, or a second "runners up" representation in most systems. I can't think of one game system or series of games that has started out with the Pacific first, then moved to the ETO.

If you ask me, making the Pacific a priority for the next expansion is where this game needs to go next, period. If it it goes anywhere "next" at all.

Then the out of the box thinking can be done.

I think you've got a pretty good theory kaufschtick. It seems like TOI needs to make more sales in order for FFG to be more enthusiastic about supporting it. Expanding the fan base seems like a sound way to do that.

Besides a Pacific expansion sounds like a lot of fun. It would probably introduce the need for new tactics, strategies and a whole new feel for the game and the way most of us play it now.

kaufschtick said:

Already pre-ordered it!

Dude, if you don't have the COH series, you should do yourself a favor and get it. It's THE series that's making me take a "wait and see before buying" approach to all other WWII games, and especially now that they've hinted at taking the system into the modern era.

If FFG hadn't been so darned slow with TOI, my wandering eyes would have never been unfaithful. No regrets, though.

AnglePark said:

I bought my copy of Awakening the Bear from Uwe himself at Origins here in Columbus, when Awakening the Bear first came out and when he was throwing in the swamp board for free. I think that was back in the summer of 08'. The Polish expansion comes with replacement counters for Awakening the Bear, as far as I know. And that's what put me off Conflict of Heros.

Now when Uwe was giving me the sales pitch at Origins, he told me that the game had been in developement and design for three years prior to its release, implying that the game was thoroughly tested and ready to roll.

I followed that game system from the moment Uwe made the sales pitch to me at Origins, and was a big fan of the game, until...

They started monkeying around with the rules. The first big goof was the change to the close combat rules, which they made an official change to for about two weeks... then changed them back. (after I had reprinted the "new" rulebook... )

Then came the changes to the group move rules...

Then came the changes to the unit stats, including offering for sale , to people who had already bought and paid for Awakening the Bear, replacement counters for the game.

Every week there was a latest and greatest change to the rules, and to be honest, I got tired of trying to keep up with what they were doing with that game. It became quite apparent to me that they really weren't finished with the design when they started offering the base game for sale, and I was more than a little put off when they "offered to sell me the replacement counters" for the base game that I already had paid a pretty penny for.

And you want to talk about slow with new stuff...

Conflict of Heros has come out with exactly one expansion in something like 2, maybe even 2 and a half years now. Uwe sent a free copy of Storms of Steel to a good friend of mine here in Columbus, and he was supposed to do some play testing for future expansions and scenarios. My friend says that he's heard nothing from anyone with Academy for almost a year now, and he's given up on the game.

My copy of Awakening the Bear is extremely close to making the trip down to the Soldiery here in Columbus, where I will trade it in, and go get the new M44 expansion, Winter Wars: The Ardennes Offensive.

Speaking of M44, Days of Wonder just pours on the game support for that game!!! It's rapidly becoming a favorite of mine just due to the shear volume and amount of expansions and support that game gets.

The new expansion, Winter Wars: The Ardennes Expansion, looks pretty **** good too. Tank Destroyer tokens (?) and such; they really are trying to add that little "extra zing" to that game, in the way of added details.

In roughly the time that FFG announced FotB, Days of Wonder has released a hard mounted Breakthrough map expansion (which is awsome), another Overord battlemap expansion (with new units and scenarios), and it looks as if they may get this new expansion, Winter Wars: The Ardennes Offensive, out before FFG gets out it's second preview for FotB!?!

kaufschtick said:

LOL! I was actually thinking the same thing!

I agree with everything you said about COH, and even expressed my concern on BGG that the art may continue to change. If they continue to change the system, or the art style, I'll drop it in a heartbeat. Changing the art really bothers me. I don't care which type of art they use, just pick one and stick with it. Rules changes can be downloaded, and most companies have "living rules" these days anyway, but changing the art with each release is another matter altogether. The nitty wargamer in me wants the same art style on all the counters, and all the boards.

Memoir is on fire, and I love the game. However, it still isn't as interesting to me as the "traditional" WWII wargames. It's too random, and I REALLY hate the fact the cards can ruin a good strategy. I know that's a part of the game, but it's my biggest complaint with the system.

You don't get that downside with TOI—if you have a good strategy, you can usually keep it moving forward for the entire game.

My only concern for COH is the fact that other than US Marines and US Paratroopers you likely won't see any US forces for 2-3 years .he seems to be heading to the Desert next ,but when your largest War game market is the US you have to have US vehicles sooner than that. I like the game but will probably sell it soon i think

BJaffe01

AnglePark said:

Yeah, that's the best part of ToI. It takes all the good parts from traditional wargaming, and all the good parts from M44 style games and melts them together in one nifty, fun game system.

I too like the departure from the card driven system as far as ToI goes.

I always thought ToI took the best parts from Axis and Allies miniatures, M44, and Conflict of Heros and put them all together. To me, that's how I describe ToI to anyone who hasn't played it. Take A&A Miniatures, Conflict of Heros and M44 and put them all together, and ToI is what you get.

I always thought the direct fire vs suppresive fire option in ToI was it's best design element, from a reality point of view. Not even the vaunted Conflict of Heros nailed that element as well as ToI, and Conflict of Heros is supposed to be the ultra realistic game.

That plus I think ToI touches all the bases when it comes to a tactical wargame design. Even hidden units; and it doesn't let itself get too bogged down in any one area. It keeps things fast moving and abstract, with just the right amount of detail to make the game feel right, without losing itself in a sea of rules.

ToI is just a fantastic game design, and its that strength along with the super game components that keeps me on board, despite the agonizing length of time between news fragments that you get with this game.

It is worth the wait, I will say that.

BJaffe01 said:

Well, when Conflict of Heros came out, I was all into it. Even at that time, I will say that I had to admit that a post I read about the title of the game made sense to me.

Someone said "Conflict of Heros? A game depicting Hitlers Nazi forces fighting against Stalins Soviet forces? Just where exactly are the Heros?"

He made a good point too, and it makes you wonder about where the priorities are in Conflict of Heros. If the U.S. is your major market, you're going to have a tough time convincing people in that market that WWII Germans or WWII Russians are heros, considering those two nations both carved up and then butchered Poland between them, and started WWII.

But folks can get past a horrible game title if the game is good, and CoH is just that. But then to leave out the forces of the nation that is your main market is another bad move. It starts to feel like the game producers are trying to portray the Germans as the Heros just because they fought the Russians. Well, the cold war is over, and Russia is no longer the big bad bear in everyones eyes here any longer. So the good folks at CoH can't rely on the old adage of "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" to pull off the Hero tag in the game title.

Leave out U.S. forces in a U.S. market and well, good luck with your game, I guess. I mean, I'm just as interested in all things WWII, but don't try to sell me Operation Barbarosa as if it were same kind of event as Operation Overlord.

But having said that, CoH is a good game and a good system. Living rules...I'm not a fan of however. When you start having to sell your customers replacement counters because you didn't get your game rules right the first time around, then you've lost me as a customer. I bought a game, not a chance to be a free game testor for you, on my own dime.

ToI has had solid rules from day one. I like that, and its getting to be kinda rare these days. M44 is the same way. Playtest your game before you put it out for sale, not after. To me, that's the difference between a good company, and a not good company.

BJaffe01 said:

For my part, I misslike playing the US. Why? Because its an US game made by US to the US market. Therefor, if being victorius in a scenario as the US, I feel like cheating. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying that you do it on purpose or anything, its just that I know that it is very easy be slightly biased towards US.

I feel great about the russian front. There you will have less of an inbuild mind set and less bias (and my self to)

So, NOW the expansion can come, I have just finished painting the last SU 122.

oh do get me wrong the game is good. i to hate living rules errata is fine but constantly changing rules tells me you failed to play test the rules orginialy.

for a lot of people the lack of US troops is a selling point, but i believe that turns off the core wargame market. i have no problem with the Russian front being first but calling either side heroes is a huge problem for some.

i to am eagerly awaiting Fury and when it arrives i will be pleased to have new toys.

BJaffe01