1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

True, though given what they immediately do, I think that is more the thing he was afraid of, not some mind tricking. Remember later in that same film, kid Anakin, a slave child who has only been alive maybe 7 years, has heard of Jedi, and what he has heard is about them being unkillable warriors. Not some mind tricky stuff. So, if a slave kid, on a backwater dirtball of a desert planet, knows that "Jedi can't be killed", I think it's likely their martial prowess is what is the "common knowledge" about the Jedi. Not mind tricking fear.

Watto, a low tier junk dealer on backwater Tatooine knows that Jedi can manipulate people's minds. He mocks Qui Gon when he tries it against him. People know.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

He was scared before he tried to murdered them

Well, yeah.

He's a cowardly criminal who works for the kill-all-cops faction, and out of the blue there's two super-cops arrive on his doorstep with a warrant. And 'scared of his own shadow' seems to be Nute Gunray's normal.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

While he was definitely coded as the "sniveling toady" as far as cinematic tropes. I do think his knowledge of the Jedi is common enough.

Yeah, the Jedi don't really seem to have made an effort to keep what they can do a secret.

But it's interesting that slaves like Anakin see great warriors or champions, and guys like Wattoo and Jabba see mind tricks. And guys like Nute see death incarnate. The Jedi seem to have a different reputation to different classes of people.

4 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Well, yeah.

He's a cowardly criminal who works for the kill-all-cops faction, and out of the blue there's two super-cops arrive on his doorstep with a warrant. And 'scared of his own shadow' seems to be Nute Gunray's normal.

Super cops that have mind control powers and he knows it. And they have basically had the Senate send their Leg breakers to give them an offer they cant refuse. So while yes Nute Gunray was in the wrong that doesnt make the Senate using the Jedi. As their enforcers right or the jedi accepting the task.

8 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Yeah, the Jedi don't really seem to have made an effort to keep what they can do a secret.

But it's interesting that slaves like Anakin see great warriors or champions, and guys like Wattoo and Jabba see mind tricks. And guys like Nute see death incarnate. The Jedi seem to have a different reputation to different classes of people.

That is common even today. Different groups focus on different things.

Just now, Daeglan said:

That is common even today. Different groups focus on different things.

I love the 'even today' line of this....as SW occurs long ago.

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Super cops that have mind control powers and he knows it. And they have basically had the Senate send their Leg breakers to give them an offer they cant refuse. So while yes Nute Gunray was in the wrong that doesnt make the Senate using the Jedi. As their enforcers right or the jedi accepting the task.

Calling them "leg breakers" implies a lot of intentional malice on the part of the Senate and the Jedi, that I don't think is warranted, especially when you consider the personalities of the Jedi sent in. They were sent there to try and negotiate a truce/settlement. The fact that they are capable of defending themselves doesn't mean they have hostile intent, or to pull a mafia "offer they can't refuse" like you suggest. We have no idea what the Jedi would've done in the negotiations, as Nute decided to just blow up their ship, killing their crew, and gassing them to death unprovoked. But based on the single line that Qui-gon says, he didn't think the situation warranted all the drama, which would imply he felt it could be easily resolved without any need for conflict. At least that was the impression I got from him and his tone. He found all the pomp and bluster unnecessary, and expressed such an opinion to the droid that brought them drinks. But Nute was like "Screw it, blow them up and gas them."

Surviving the attempted assassination, and attempting to get to the commanding person of the forces to quickly stop the conflict, doesn't make them "Leg breakers". It just makes them negotiators that are able to survive some very dangerous situations. A situation, they didn't instigate.

2 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

What  ? 

It's rather obvious I didn't miss the many uses of mind trick in the movies.

What nobody has ever seen Jedi do in the movies is mind trick a politician into agreeing with them. Because they don't do that.

33 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Calling them "leg breakers" implies a lot of intentional malice on the part of the Senate and the Jedi, that I don't think is warranted, especially when you consider the personalities of the Jedi sent in. They were sent there to try and negotiate a truce/settlement. The fact that they are capable of defending themselves doesn't mean they have hostile intent, or to pull a mafia "offer they can't refuse" like you suggest. We have no idea what the Jedi would've done in the negotiations, as Nute decided to just blow up their ship, killing their crew, and gassing them to death unprovoked. But based on the single line that Qui-gon says, he didn't think the situation warranted all the drama, which would imply he felt it could be easily resolved without any need for conflict. At least that was the impression I got from him and his tone. He found all the pomp and bluster unnecessary, and expressed such an opinion to the droid that brought them drinks. But Nute was like "Screw it, blow them up and gas them." L

Surviving the attempted assassination, and attempting to get to the commanding person of the forces to quickly stop the conflict, doesn't make them "Leg breakers". It just makes them negotiators that are able to survive some very dangerous situations. A situation, they didn't instigate.

Look at the Mandate Qui Gon and Obi Wan were given. It was to get a settlement from the Trade Federation with a heavy emphasis on getting the desired solution. Consider how that ismpercieved by the person on the tecieving end. It is not percieved as a friendly chat. It comes off as leg breakers coming from the mafia to enforce the will of the senate. I am pretty sure the fact the members of the Senate from recieving system have done this to other systems doesnt even cross their mind. And i am pretty sure it has not crossed the Jedi Order's mind that thisbis how they are percieved. And no i dont think the jedi do this out of malice. I think they have stuck them selves. So high up on a pedestal that have lost touch with the results of their actions. Malice is not needed to be a monster.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Super cops that have mind control powers and he knows it. And they have basically had the Senate send their Leg breakers to give them an offer they cant refuse. So while yes Nute Gunray was in the wrong that doesnt make the Senate using the Jedi. As their enforcers right or the jedi accepting the task.

He doesn't seem particularly worried about mind-control powers. He's more concerned about their gross bodily harm powers.

3 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

He doesn't seem particularly worried about mind-control powers. He's more concerned about their gross bodily harm powers.

And you seem to be mostly concerned with how slavers, criminals, and Sith puppets view the Jedi.

We have no idea which thing he feared most before he tried to murder them. After? Yeah he feared the bodily harm. But before? He said are you brain dead im not going in there. And what gives you the idea i care only about what Sith puppets and slavers think? Everytime i posted i was talking from the point of view of someone facing them across the negotiating table while not having the Senate on their side. You cant win a fight against them. They can mind control you. That is kinda intimidating for non force users.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

We have no idea which thing he feared most before he tried to murder them. After? Yeah he feared the bodily harm. But before? He said are you brain dead im not going in there. And what gives you the idea i care only about what Sith puppets and slavers think? Everytime i posted i was talking from the point of view of someone facing them across the negotiating table while not having the Senate on their side. You cant win a fight against them. They can mind control you. That is kinda intimidating for non force users.

But we have never actually seen Jedi facing somebody across a negotion table. Plus, the Trade Federation has the Senate in its side. They're important members while Naboo is just this backwater world barely anybody has heard about.

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

But we have never actually seen Jedi facing somebody across a negotion table.  Plus, the Trade Federation has the Senate in its side. They're important members while Naboo is just this backwater world barely anybody has heard about. 

And aside from the Jedi not actually doing what Daeglan and kmanweiss claim, how hard would it be to send in a couple of negotiators at once, and also record the negotiations, anyway? This is all nonsense on their part. Entirely unsupported by the movies.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

And aside from the Jedi not actually doing what Daeglan and kmanweiss claim, how hard would it be to send in a couple of negotiators at once, and also record the negotiations, anyway? This is all nonsense on their part. Entirely unsupported by the movies.

Well we actually do. Qui gon and Obi Wan did. Nute Gunray tried to murder them.

23 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's rather obvious I didn't miss the many uses of mind trick in the movies.

What nobody has ever seen Jedi do in the movies is mind trick a politician into agreeing with them. Because they don't do that.

Boss Nass doesn't count? Qui Gon mind tricks him a couple times.

Look man, the Jedi don't respect the opinions of others. If they deem their way right, they will mind control their opposition to get their way. We see them do it again and again on all level of people.

If the defense is 'it doesn't work on strong willed people' then all it means is they'd love to use it on everyone, but sadly some people resist. That's like defending a sexual assault allegation with a response of 'she's not my type'. In other words it's **** near a confession.

What we really don't see in the movie is very many times that the Jedi oppose the politicians they are interacting with. The vast majority of their interaction is with Republic politicians, and since they aren't in opposition with them, they don't have a chance to use it on many politicians.

1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

Boss Nass doesn't count? Qui Gon mind tricks him     a couple times. 

No, because the conversation is about Jedi forcing political negotiations, not getting a boat from a dude.

10 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Well we actually do. Qui gon and Obi Wan did. Nute Gunray tried to murder them.

Yes, attempted murder shows that people can't be filmed. 🙄

19 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, because the conversation is about Jedi forcing political negotiations, not getting a boat from a dude.

So you honestly believe that they draw a line there? They'll use it for everything short of negotiation with a politician for actual political issues?

I mean we've shown they'll use it to cheat, steal, rip people off, and avoid the law. We've shown them use it on thugs, crime lords, business owners, soldiers, common folk, and politicians. Do you really not infer anything that you don't see actually happen in a movie? Why would that be the line they refuse to cross?

So you believe that had the nemodians sat down with Jinn and Kenobi and outright refused to change their ways, Jinn wouldn't have used the force to get his way? To put a stop to the blockade? To prevent the invasion/occupation? He would have just sat back and let it happen? Headed down to the surface to do what he did anyways? "They won't peacefully cooperate, so I guess it's lightsaber time!" Nah. He would have waved his hand and told them to withdraw.

12 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

So you honestly believe that they draw a line there? They'll use it for everything short of negotiation with a politician for actual political issues?

I mean we've shown they'll use it to cheat, steal, rip people off, and avoid the law. We've shown them use it on thugs, crime lords, business owners, soldiers, common folk, and politicians. Do you really not infer anything that you don't see actually happen in a movie? Why would that be the line they refuse to cross?

So you believe that had the nemodians sat down with Jinn and Kenobi and outright refused to change their ways, Jinn wouldn't have used the force to get his way? To put a stop to the blockade? To prevent the invasion/occupation? He would have just sat back and let it happen? Headed down to the surface to do what he did anyways? "They won't peacefully cooperate, so I guess it's lightsaber time!" Nah. He would have waved his hand and told them to withdraw.

We saw them cheat a slave owner. Who by the way was using loaded dice.

We try and use thenforce yo get him to accept currency that would be difficult to use.

We saw Anakin barrow a speeder. Which likely was returned.

As to the politicians we dont disagree with you.

The way I see it - one of the main themes of the prequels is that the Jedi Order is broken. They mean well but they live in an ivory tower (both literally and figuratively), they're out of touch with the common man. So doing stuff that might be questionable to serve the greater good is right in line with that hypothesis. There's no malice, but they have lost their way - which is why Anakin needed to kick their collective asses and Luke was to bring humanity back to the Jedi by creating a more grounded order.

2 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

Do you really     not infer anything that you don't see actually happen in a movie? 

🙄

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

We saw them cheat a slave owner. Who by the way was using loaded dice.

We try and use thenforce yo get him to accept currency that would be difficult to use.

We saw Anakin barrow a speeder. Which likely was returned.

As to the politicians we dont disagree with you.

It was a loaded cube? I haven't heard that? What proof do we have backing that? A quick search turned up nothing specific. The sides might not have been 3/3 red/blue but that doesn't necessarily indicate a loaded die as much as a die with different chances of outcomes. A force die from SWRPG isn't loaded, but it doesn't have a 50/50 chance of black vs white (number of white pips vs black pips however does average out). Assuming there was more blue than red, that might have been the gamble based on how he valued his two slaves. Mom was worth less so he was more willing to lose her and gave her a higher chance of the result. I'd love to see something definitive on it.

What they do in each case is arguably 'good'. Stealing a speeder to chase a criminal, cheating a slave owner to 'free' a slave, borrowing a boat, convincing a guy to give up selling drugs, escaping a military checkpoint without killing, trying to rip off a slave owner, etc.

But this is where morals and ethics get involved. Do the ends justify the means? Does overpowering someone's sense of willpower and self determination cross an ethical or moral line? It sure seems like it should. In that case, does it matter what the end result is. The Jedi have a strict ethical code that seems very inflexible, yet they regularly interfere with the self determination of others for both small and large reasons.

Do we allow unethical medical testing if it produces useful results? No. And we are often horrified by stories from the past where this wasn't the case. Is this really that far off?

I'm not even sure that Jinn having a chance to prevent the Naboo conflict with a mind trick is a bad thing. The act itself is bad, but then again, how many lives were lost on Naboo? Could lives had been saved had Jinn used a Jedi mind trick to get them to pull out of the blockade? Does that end justify the means though? This gets even darker when you consider the side effects of a Jedi mind trick. The victim of the Jedi mind trick could easily be punished for a dereliction of duty in many cases. The punishment for this could be death in some cases. We've seen canon examples of the pain from being mind tricked. I could see something like that driving someone to suicide. What if in the case of Watto, had the mind trick worked, and Watto loses a large valuable item he could sell, and instead now loses money...what if he couldn't feed his slaves because of this, or his family. Sure, he's a bad guy on a moral/ethical scale due to slavery (which was legal on Tatooine at the time), but does that warrant ripping him off? How different would his life be if he was tricked into accepting republic credits that are worthless, or if Anakin had stayed his slave. Heck, how many additional lives were lost because Jinn cheated and 'saved' Anakin?

This is why it's so interesting to me. The Jedi talk about being good. They talk about morals and ethics. There are clearly force powers that are evil, and it's not just based on how they are used or if it's justifiable to use them in that manner, or in that circumstance. Yet Jedi warp people's own self determination on the reg, and it seems they are totally cool with this. That is so bizarre to me.

40 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

It was a loaded cube? I haven't heard that? What proof do we have backing that? A quick search turned up nothing specific. The sides might not have been 3/3 red/blue but that doesn't necessarily indicate a loaded die as much as a die with different chances of outcomes. A force die from SWRPG isn't loaded, but it doesn't have a 50/50 chance of black vs white (number of white pips vs black pips however does average out). Assuming there was more blue than red, that might have been the gamble based on how he valued his two slaves. Mom was worth less so he was more willing to lose her and gave her a higher chance of the result. I'd love to see something definitive on it.

What they do in each case is arguably 'good'. Stealing a speeder to chase a criminal, cheating a slave owner to 'free' a slave, borrowing a boat, convincing a guy to give up selling drugs, escaping a military checkpoint without killing, trying to rip off a slave owner, etc.

But this is where morals and ethics get involved. Do the ends justify the means? Does overpowering someone's sense of willpower and self determination cross an ethical or moral line? It sure seems like it should. In that case, does it matter what the end result is. The Jedi have a strict ethical code that seems very inflexible, yet they regularly interfere with the self determination of others for both small and large reasons.

Do we allow unethical medical testing if it produces useful results? No. And we are often horrified by stories from the past where this wasn't the case. Is this really that far off?

I'm not even sure that Jinn having a chance to prevent the Naboo conflict with a mind trick is a bad thing. The act itself is bad, but then again, how many lives were lost on Naboo? Could lives had been saved had Jinn used a Jedi mind trick to get them to pull out of the blockade? Does that end justify the means though? This gets even darker when you consider the side effects of a Jedi mind trick. The victim of the Jedi mind trick could easily be punished for a dereliction of duty in many cases. The punishment for this could be death in some cases. We've seen canon examples of the pain from being mind tricked. I could see something like that driving someone to suicide. What if in the case of Watto, had the mind trick worked, and Watto loses a large valuable item he could sell, and instead now loses money...what if he couldn't feed his slaves because of this, or his family. Sure, he's a bad guy on a moral/ethical scale due to slavery (which was legal on Tatooine at the time), but does that warrant ripping him off? How different would his life be if he was tricked into accepting republic credits that are worthless, or if Anakin had stayed his slave. Heck, how many additional lives were lost because Jinn cheated and 'saved' Anakin?

This is why it's so interesting to me. The Jedi talk about being good. They talk about morals and ethics. There are clearly force powers that are evil, and it's not just based on how they are used or if it's justifiable to use them in that manner, or in that circumstance. Yet Jedi warp people's own self determination on the reg, and it seems they are totally cool with this. That is so bizarre to me.

Look at the look on Watto's face. He had an expected answer and didnt get it. He also set the terms. He was cheating.

The other stuff. That is trickier. And i am looking at how the Jedi are percieved by people. The jedis biggest problem is their connection to the senate. That connection bri.gs a lot of baggage.

That is the thing. Free will is a small price to pay in some situations, especially if it is preformed for a selfless cause. Convincing the Trade Federation to abandon their "unlawful" blockade of Naboo that threatened to stave millions of people (it was literally specified that was what they were doing. They moved in and cut people off from food and used that threat of a slow demise to try and force the signing of all Naboo property over to the trade federation.), it would be fine. When you get on the stage where a lot of lives are at stake; making someone momentarily more amenable is fine as it's really no less dirty then asking an entire peoples to sign away their lives to a strong-arming entity. That and the indication was that if they actually met the Jedi; they would have to meaningfully respond to the direct address of the Republic within the timeframe specified, by ensuring the Jedi never met the diplomats the Trade Federation had plausible deniability in just denying any demands the republic made of them within a limited time frame.. "Jedi? You claim to have sent Jedi but they weren't aboard this ship, they never made it to our meeting. Maybe you should air any grievances to the Order."

Besides, while sending Jedi is implied to be a power play on the republic; the Jedi in this capacity was serving both the republic and it's people. Naboo would've been able to cut a much better bargain with the New Republic if the bullying tactics of the trade federation was mitigated. The issue was the Trade Federation was acting intentionally against the law and was using plausible deniability, the republics slow reaction time (which would have acted long after the blockade of Naboo ended) and it's considerable trading power to strongarm the republic just enough to not bother levelling sanctions against them. After all, the Queen would've signed a legally binding contract. It's as lawful evil as lawful evil can get to use D&D terms, exploitation of rules in order to ultimately get it's way.

So yeah, given the gravity of that situation I probably wouldn't consider it "conflict worthy" to make two very morally bankrupt individuals cave in to very reasonable demands. This is after all *not* how the republic do things. What was lacking was the Jedi's resolve to follow up on the apparent assassination and the Sith sighting in any meaningful capacity. "Oh well, donno what happened there. Met a sith on the way back? Better let the republic sort that mess out, outside our judication it is." Basically, the only reason Naboo was ever liberated was because Qui-Gon decided to try and do something about it and help the Queen. Without him the entire place would've been trade federation territory and a lot of "regrettable losses to malnutrition. Clearly you struggle to feed your people, it's a good thing we came along when we did."

Dealing with Watto? He's a scumbag who isn't interested in doing anything if it doesn't make a stupid ton of money and the situation was such that if Qui-Gon didn't get what he needed, millions would potentially die while the Queen was off-world. Besides, the kid being absent wasn't going to inconvenience the businessman a great deal, Watto was the kind of guy who lords his status over his subjects and cries poverty when he receives uppercumance for his greed. That is one of the general overriding theme of star wars; Good will ultimately prevail over the corrupt and unjust. Watto ultimately lead himself down that path of ruin by trying to have everything his way.

In short; sometimes to save 10 people you have to change the perspective of one person. Besides, mind trick isn't a super power; it only works on people who would be open to the suggestion of alternatives in the first place, Nute Gunray was only so bold because of his benefactor's assistance and likely would've been open to cave to the republics demands otherwise. Jabba for meanwhile was completely unmoved by Luke Skywalker because it just wasn't in his nature to negotiate out of the kindness of his heart. Just of course having the power to change peoples minds is dangerous if wielded too frilleriously; I make the point of sometimes not using influence entirely if I am genuine enough, but if I have to convince that pirate Captain that it "really" isn't in his best business to pick a fight? Then I can live with flexi-free will. XD

1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

That is the thing. Free will is a small price to pay in some situations, especially if it is preformed for a selfless cause. Convincing the Trade Federation to abandon their "unlawful" blockade of Naboo that threatened to stave millions of people (it was literally specified that was what they were doing. They moved in and cut people off from food and used that threat of a slow demise to try and force the signing of all Naboo property over to the trade federation.), it would be fine. When you get on the stage where a lot of lives are at stake; making someone momentarily more amenable is fine as it's really no less dirty then asking an entire peoples to sign away their lives to a strong-arming entity. That and the indication was that if they actually met the Jedi; they would have to meaningfully respond to the direct address of the Republic within the timeframe specified, by ensuring the Jedi never met the diplomats the Trade Federation had plausible deniability in just denying any demands the republic made of them within a limited time frame.. "Jedi? You claim to have sent Jedi but they weren't aboard this ship, they never made it to our meeting. Maybe you should air any grievances to the Order."

Besides, while sending Jedi is implied to be a power play on the republic; the Jedi in this capacity was serving both the republic and it's people. Naboo would've been able to cut a much better bargain with the New Republic if the bullying tactics of the trade federation was mitigated. The issue was the Trade Federation was acting intentionally against the law and was using plausible deniability, the republics slow reaction time (which would have acted long after the blockade of Naboo ended) and it's considerable trading power to strongarm the republic just enough to not bother levelling sanctions against them. After all, the Queen would've signed a legally binding contract. It's as lawful evil as lawful evil can get to use D&D terms, exploitation of rules in order to ultimately get it's way.

So yeah, given the gravity of that situation I probably wouldn't consider it "conflict worthy" to make two very morally bankrupt individuals cave in to very reasonable demands. This is after all *not* how the republic do things. What was lacking was the Jedi's resolve to follow up on the apparent assassination and the Sith sighting in any meaningful capacity. "Oh well, donno what happened there. Met a sith on the way back? Better let the republic sort that mess out, outside our judication it is." Basically, the only reason Naboo was ever liberated was because Qui-Gon decided to try and do something about it and help the Queen. Without him the entire place would've been trade federation territory and a lot of "regrettable losses to malnutrition. Clearly you struggle to feed your people, it's a good thing we came along when we did."

Dealing with Watto? He's a scumbag who isn't interested in doing anything if it doesn't make a stupid ton of money and the situation was such that if Qui-Gon didn't get what he needed, millions would potentially die while the Queen was off-world. Besides, the kid being absent wasn't going to inconvenience the businessman a great deal, Watto was the kind of guy who lords his status over his subjects and cries poverty when he receives uppercumance for his greed. That is one of the general overriding theme of star wars; Good will ultimately prevail over the corrupt and unjust. Watto ultimately lead himself down that path of ruin by trying to have everything his way.

In short; sometimes to save 10 people you have to change the perspective of one person. Besides, mind trick isn't a super power; it only works on people who would be open to the suggestion of alternatives in the first place, Nute Gunray was only so bold because of his benefactor's assistance and likely would've been open to cave to the republics demands otherwise. Jabba for meanwhile was completely unmoved by Luke Skywalker because it just wasn't in his nature to negotiate out of the kindness of his heart. Just of course having the power to change peoples minds is dangerous if wielded too frilleriously; I make the point of sometimes not using influence entirely if I am genuine enough, but if I have to convince that pirate Captain that it "really" isn't in his best business to pick a fight? Then I can live with flexi-free will. XD

I agree. I just think there are probably a lot of cases not as clear cut. I suspect the jedi may have been used to push agendas that were sold as good but benefitted those pushing for the item. Thus the jedi were corrupted.