Now that I've finally realized Holdo procs during her ship's engagement...yeah deflectors are like Ahsoka only

If we REALLY stretch it, maybe sinker? Even then, screwing over the bloke's own shot

Deflectors on Poe, Holdo on Resistance Han. Move that token where it needs to be.

Holdo has a lot of synergies here. Put a Feedback Array on Han, and you could have a situation where Poe attacks, Han triggers Feedback Array against everyone at range 0, and then Holdo passes FA's Disarm token to Poe in order to allow Han to attack.

Edrio two tubes will like it, as he so rarely needs 2xfocus +tl

On 6/14/2019 at 3:52 PM, ficklegreendice said:

That's really slow and initiative dependent wheras Ahsoka or Coordination Station immidiately compensate for the opportunity cost with their pilot abilities

Sure, Ahsoka and other options can do more. I am just throwing out a possible use. Nothing crazy or game breaking, but there is that possibility of use.

I was amazed to learn people are losing their minds over this card. I don't get it at all. It's not that good. I wonder if people simply don't understand how violently Reinforce was nerfed for 2.0. As an avid Auzituck player (Wullffwarro rules!), I can tell you, Reinforce is largely garbage now. There are a few situations where it's useful, but largely you want to focus for offense instead, or even take that red barrel roll. If you're reinforcing, there's about an 80% chance that was a misplay. The only Tuck I tell to reinforce is Wullffwarro with Saw crew, because he can afford the action and nothing else makes sense in the moment.

Everyone else? Not interested. For many ships, you'd have to pay THEM to equip the card, and for obvious reasons that's not gonna happen.

Many ships have better uses for that modification slot.

Nearly all ships have better uses for that action.

Most fleets have better uses for those points.

Aces with good agility and/or force are typically going to reduce damage to 1 anyway, especially with a focus or evade token; or they'll just dodge arcs entirely with their actions. An ace that benefits from reinforcing instead of other actions will be a rare thing indeed.

Most ships that would benefit from but don't have reinforce already probably have better ways to spend their mod slot, action, points, and tactics. There will be a few special cases where we can justify its use, maybe some that are kinda neat, and that's it. Frankly I think passing around reinforce tokens is the neatest idea, followed by action duplication with Sai and maybe some shenanigans with those TIE/ca Punisher pilots.

Personally I'm going to make a jank list with Wullffwarro, paying to drop his shield by one to speed up his journey to more dice, because that's stupid. Take that, opponent! Can your mind survive an assault from... THE DUMB FLEET DESIGN?! MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAA....

7 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I was amazed to learn people are losing their minds over this card. I don't get it at all. It's not that good. I wonder if people simply don't understand how violently Reinforce was nerfed for 2.0. As an avid Auzituck player (Wullffwarro rules!), I can tell you, Reinforce is largely garbage now. There are a few situations where it's useful, but largely you want to focus for offense instead, or even take that red barrel roll. If you're reinforcing, there's about an 80% chance that was a misplay. The only Tuck I tell to reinforce is Wullffwarro with Saw crew, because he can afford the action and nothing else makes sense in the moment.

Everyone else? Not interested. For many ships, you'd have to pay THEM to equip the card, and for obvious reasons that's not gonna happen.

Many ships have better uses for that modification slot.

Nearly all ships have better uses for that action.

Most fleets have better uses for those points.

Aces with good agility and/or force are typically going to reduce damage to 1 anyway, especially with a focus or evade token; or they'll just dodge arcs entirely with their actions. An ace that benefits from reinforcing instead of other actions will be a rare thing indeed.

Most ships that would benefit from but don't have reinforce already probably have better ways to spend their mod slot, action, points, and tactics. There will be a few special cases where we can justify its use, maybe some that are kinda neat, and that's it. Frankly I think passing around reinforce tokens is the neatest idea, followed by action duplication with Sai and maybe some shenanigans with those TIE/ca Punisher pilots.

Personally I'm going to make a jank list with Wullffwarro, paying to drop his shield by one to speed up his journey to more dice, because that's stupid. Take that, opponent! Can your mind survive an assault from... THE DUMB FLEET DESIGN?! MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAA....

Lok, Scum Lando crew, Angled. Vet Tur + favorite turret or just stick with the base attack ability.

I have a feeling we’ll be seeing a lot of Angled Deflector Lukes (Angled DefLuketor?). He’s a pilot that often times doesn’t need his action.

58 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

I have a feeling we’ll be seeing a lot of Angled Deflector Lukes (Angled DefLuketor?). He’s a pilot that often times doesn’t need his action.

Maybe, but it would need to be very cheap for how situational it'll be. The only time it'd be good is if he's already got a lock on his target and a barrel roll won't do anything for him.

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

Maybe, but it would need to be very cheap for how situational it'll be. The only time it'd be good is if he's already got a lock on his target and a barrel roll won't do anything for him.

Which in my experience is fairly often. Maybe I'm not flying him right, but out of any given match I seem to have several rounds where Luke has no meaningful action to take.

EDIT: It would also come up a lot if you're flying him with R2-D2 or another regen droid and you're running away to regen.

39 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Which in my experience is fairly often. Maybe I'm not flying him right, but out of any given match I seem to have several rounds where Luke has no meaningful action to take.

EDIT: It would also come up a lot if you're flying him with R2-D2 or another regen droid and you're running away to regen.

Having a second shield seems pretty good though

37 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Which in my experience is fairly often. Maybe I'm not flying him right, but out of any given match I seem to have several rounds where Luke has no meaningful action to take.

EDIT: It would also come up a lot if you're flying him with R2-D2 or another regen droid and you're running away to regen.

Hit&Run regen perhaps has some usefulness. Though you have the opportunity cost of filling your mod slot with Reinforce (and a lost shield) instead of something with its own utility like Spare Parts Canisters, Afterburners, Shield Upgrade, Electronic Baffle, etc, each of which works well for keeping Luke alive & versatile (or leaving Mod empty for points). You'd have to get use out of that Reinforce at least twice to pay off, while the other options tend to see use really reliably.

Compare to Electronic Baffle, the weakest and cheapest alternative in the list above. It promises Luke can plow through debris or k-turn/tallon and opt to not worry about blues next round, and that meshes decently well with shield regen in a protracted fight. It's action-free, helping Luke on rounds that would normally be pretty restricted. For a mere two points, that's a lot of value, but we don't see Luke opting for EB much because he either wants that mod slot for something else, or he wants the points.

I think I'll have to see this upgrade in a few real games to have any hope for it. I feel like some of the things discussed here that seem good/bad on paper could shake out differently in a real fight, and I'm interested in seeing where those disconnects lie. And of course, the point cost will determine so much...

Now that points are announced, I just wanted to drop in and say, paying 9 or 6 points for the privilege of losing a shield and gaining the Reinforce action isn't even a realistic offer on most ships. Something like a Kimogila won't even acknowledge the offer. Maybe on the 2- or 3-agility ships with some synergy; 3 points might make sense for some of the interesting cases like Luke. Maybe if you're moving green tokens around or spending a green token with Scum Lando, but not for 9 points.

That point cost seems insane to me. Does FFG remember they nerfed Reinforce hard?! Are we not seeing some game-breaking combo that scares FFG witless? Maybe Hate Asajj with Latts (who just got violently nerfed thanks to the Hate increase anyway)? (edit: nevermind, wasn't an option for Latts anyway, she's large-based)

I dunno. Maybe FFG is being super-cautious with its pricing to start out, and will revisit later.

11 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Now that points are announced, I just wanted to drop in and say, paying 9 or 6 points for the privilege of losing a shield and gaining the Reinforce action isn't even a realistic offer on most ships. Something like a Kimogila won't even acknowledge the offer. Maybe on the 2- or 3-agility ships with some synergy; 3 points might make sense for some of the interesting cases like Luke. Maybe if you're moving green tokens around or spending a green token with Scum Lando, but not for 9 points.

That point cost seems insane to me. Does FFG remember they nerfed Reinforce hard?! Are we not seeing some game-breaking combo that scares FFG witless? Maybe Hate Asajj with Latts (who just got violently nerfed thanks to the Hate increase anyway)? (edit: nevermind, wasn't an option for Latts anyway, she's large-based)

I dunno. Maybe FFG is being super-cautious with its pricing to start out, and will revisit later.

It's not for big ships. I know that sounds silly given what reinforce is, but this is an upgrade intended for smaller ships, and I don't think you're seeing its value enough at all.

Let me name some ships that will love this upgrade.

E-Wing, TIE Defender, HWK-290, Kihraxz, Starviper, U-Wings ESPECIALLY, YT-2400, Gunboats, TIE Interceptors (yes really), X-Wings of any type, TIE/SF, Silencer, and the Delta-7B.

E-Wings and TIE Defenders love it because they only give up one shield to have a good defensive upgrade. TIE Defenders moving at speed 3 with Angled only pay 3 points for another defensive action. If for some ungodly reason something coordinates them, a TIE Defender with Focus, Evade, and Reinforce is practically invulnerable. Indeed, it might be the BEST ship for the upgrade. E-Wings are already hard to hit, so any extra defense is good.

HWK-290 has enough HP to want this just in case it's the best option at any given moment.

Kihraxzes have one measly shield. paying 3 points for damage mitigation isn't anything to scoff at and possibly more valuable than that shield. Use both mod slots and you keep that shield for just a few extra points.

Starvipers can take it nicely, but U-Wings really, really want it. They have good agility, but they're medium base. So they of course would like extra defense. What do you know, reinforce is a great action if you're doing one of their closed-foil flips, because having that agility decrease doesn't suddenly make the upgrade cost more.

YT-2400? Just another way to avoid damage and have loads of health.

Gunboats, ditto.

TIE Interceptors are a point sink but if you want, you can chuck a shield on then throw this on. Dunno why you would but you could.

X-Wings are obvious, Luke especially, or any of the other "hey shoot me!" X-Wings, coupled alongside selfless. Try THAT one on for size.

TIE/SFs like the possible mitiation, Silencers may just love it.

The Delta-7B is obvious. Even chunkier harder to kill boi.

3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

E-Wings and TIE Defenders love it because they only give up one shield to have a good defensive upgrade. TIE Defenders moving at speed 3 with Angled only pay 3 points for another defensive action. If for some ungodly reason something coordinates them, a TIE Defender with Focus, Evade, and Reinforce is practically invulnerable. Indeed, it might be the BEST ship for the upgrade. E-Wings are already hard to hit, so any extra defense is good.

No more invulnerable than a Defender with focus+evade. For reinforce to trigger, a damage goes through every time. And you're paying points for the privilege of starting down a shield....

41 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

It's not for big ships. I know that sounds silly given what reinforce is, but this is an upgrade intended for smaller ships, and I don't think you're seeing its value enough at all.

Let me name some ships that will love this upgrade.

E-Wing, TIE Defender, HWK-290, Kihraxz, Starviper, U-Wings ESPECIALLY, YT-2400, Gunboats, TIE Interceptors (yes really), X-Wings of any type, TIE/SF, Silencer, and the Delta-7B.

E-Wings and TIE Defenders love it because they only give up one shield to have a good defensive upgrade. TIE Defenders moving at speed 3 with Angled only pay 3 points for another defensive action. If for some ungodly reason something coordinates them, a TIE Defender with Focus, Evade, and Reinforce is practically invulnerable. Indeed, it might be the BEST ship for the upgrade. E-Wings are already hard to hit, so any extra defense is good.

HWK-290 has enough HP to want this just in case it's the best option at any given moment.

Kihraxzes have one measly shield. paying 3 points for damage mitigation isn't anything to scoff at and possibly more valuable than that shield. Use both mod slots and you keep that shield for just a few extra points.

Starvipers can take it nicely, but U-Wings really, really want it. They have good agility, but they're medium base. So they of course would like extra defense. What do you know, reinforce is a great action if you're doing one of their closed-foil flips, because having that agility decrease doesn't suddenly make the upgrade cost more.

YT-2400? Just another way to avoid damage and have loads of health.

Gunboats, ditto.

TIE Interceptors are a point sink but if you want, you can chuck a shield on then throw this on. Dunno why you would but you could.

X-Wings are obvious, Luke especially, or any of the other "hey shoot me!" X-Wings, coupled alongside selfless. Try THAT one on for size.

TIE/SFs like the possible mitiation, Silencers may just love it.

The Delta-7B is obvious. Even chunkier harder to kill boi.

I'm aware it's not for big ships; please see my edit you quoted in your own post. That's not my point. But I will try to respond to your suggestions, if only to explain why we're not thrilled about this card. The most important thing though would be to read the article this thread is about, and read the thread please. The card is a lot less good than you're assuming.

Remember that Reinforce is nerfed in 2E. This is not first edition's amazing super auzituck action, but instead its "special" cousin in 2E. The one everyone feels bad for. The one that's usually around but can only rarely contribute meaningfully. Yes, that reinforce. It's tragic what happened to it, but 1E auzitucks made such a massive splash, FFG wanted to make **** sure it wouldn't be scary like that ever again. We all remember the sound of that shotgun; we all remember that day. For better or for worse (almost certainly for the better), the deed is done.

Further, you're giving up a shield and devoting your action to use this weak reinforce action. That very rarely comes close to the power of focus or evade on a 2- or 3-agility ship, as focus/evade can prevent all damage. Or you could just arc-dodge with that action. As stated throughout this thread, one damage always leaks through the second edition's reinforce -- you'd have to get two uses out of this upgrade for it to even have any value, since you lose a shield and pay points for it. (To be fair, did you read the article this thread is about? It covers the basics of this.)

Last I checked, TIE Defender cannot equip modifications (otherwise we'd see Shield Upgrade or Stealth Device on every TIE/D and they'd be a nightmare).

I can see some mild potential in U-Wings but... it takes some trickery (like Advanced Sensors) to use it together with the rotate, so keep the total cost in mind. And you're reinforcing instead of focusing/locking for attack, or coordinating. That's a big sacrifice for something you'll do on occasion.

YT-2400 is a large base and cannot equip it.

Gunboats should be locking, focusing, or slamming, IMO. If you're emphasizing defense, I worry your gunboat isn't doing its job.

I don't think TIE Interceptors can equip this. It's currently debatable if shield upgrade counts toward the requirement, given past rulings about agility. It's also not likely they'd want it. Damage always leaks through, and they don't have enough health to let it ever pay off. They should focus or evade instead! And spend those points on proper defense like shield/hull upgrades, or leave them unspent; they should never, ever equip this card.

Luke is discussed in this thread and has potential.

Regarding selfless: Selfless happens before the Neutralize Results step, while Reinforce triggers during. So if you Selfless a damage away so the target is only taking one damage, Reinforce won't help. Selfless+Reinforce only helps if you're taking 3 or more damage in a single shot, and at that point you're probably better off with focus tokens on your x-wings, not reinforce; focus is more dynamic, and if you're taking hits that hard, you need to give that damage back, not shave 1 off the shot. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we suspect Biggs might like it, since he'll consistently be focus-fired. Biggs + Luke are viable users, maybe. Most other x-wings probably not.

TIE/sfs... maybe Quickdraw (again, focus and arc-dodging are probably far, far better), but otherwise I don't know about that. I'm not sure why Silencers would be extra excited about it when they could focus or arc-dodge instead.

The combo of force + focus is less potent than you imply. It's maybe useful on Luke (especially with shield regen) because he always gets more force back, and Reinforce helps reduce those rare really heavy shots or blankouts. But 1 damage always leaks through reinforce, as reinforce doesn't even do anything unless 2 or more damage is getting past your other defenses. At most reinforce will occasionally save you a force on defense because the end damage will be the same, but at that point, you're probably better off having focused or arc-dodged instead.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, maybe there's some use for the named TIE Punishers, and for moving tokens around with that new pilot coming out. A few other options like luke, biggs, etc. But it's going to be preeeety limited because of all the problems with this card, and its absurd cost for anything below 2 agility. Even the interesting options like Biggs are questionable: we're not optimistic it'll pay off. The combined price of "a shield, your action, the mod slot, and 3 points" is too high.

12 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I don't think TIE Interceptors can equip this. It's currently debatable if shield upgrade counts toward the requirement, given past rulings about agility.

That was for variable points cost, which are assigned off of the base stats on the upgrade card. If it applies to upgrade requirements then nothing can equip Spare Parts Canister since nothing has an Astromech equipped baseline, nor could Y-Wings, Scurrgs, or VCX-100s use Veteran Turret Gunner since the base ships do not have the Rotate action...

That being said, an edge case :

Omega Squadron Ace (29)
Fanatical (2)
Advanced Optics (4)
Angled Deflectors (3)
Total: 38

Start the game with Fanatical turned on...

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Omega Squadron Ace (29)
Fanatical (2)
Advanced Optics (4)
Angled Deflectors (3)
Total: 38

Start the game with Fanatical turned on...

Haha! I like this one, very janky but with the potential to be useful (enemy doesn't get to choose when your team is fanatical; they just are... though you could accomplish the same with Electronic Baffle if you can afford a sloop/kturn on the approach). I was thinking of doing something similar with Wullff + electronic baffle for kicks but it's not great (need 3 rounds and you lose 3 health doing it). It'll just be a jank list.

BTW rereading my reply to Captain Lackwit, I came off pretty rude or blunt in that opening paragraph. Sorry about that, man!

The HWK is an interesting call though. Palob + Moldy might like angled deflectors. He can already enter battle with a focus stack (plus any tokens he steals) and has two arcs to proc his ability with the title, so he has the action free to reinforce, and he really wants some protection against damage spikes because everyone hates Palob.

Even there though, losing his one shield hurts. Crit vulnerability could be a real weakness because reinforce always lets one damage through and crits are cancelled last.

7 hours ago, Wazat said:

The combined price of "a shield, your action, the mod slot, and 3 points" is too high.

yes

7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Omega Squadron Ace (29)
Fanatical (2)
Advanced Optics (4)
Angled Deflectors (3)
Total: 38

freaking hilarious. But you shouldn't want advanced Optics, your action should be reinforce, with no focus right?

Sadly, that makes these 34 points. And at the same cost as Init1 interceptors, I think the 2 die primary is gonna be lacking.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

TIE Defenders moving at speed 3 with Angled only pay 3 points for another defensive action. If for some ungodly reason something coordinates them, a TIE Defender with Focus, Evade, and Reinforce is practically invulnerable. Indeed, it might be the BEST ship for the upgrade.

Which is, in part, why TIE defenders still have no modification slot.

Ditto the TIE/v1.

I'm wondering if Vader might be a nice thought. He has the spare actions, after all. Giving up Afterburners sound painful, but Reinforced Deflectors might be an interesting alternative.

8 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

freaking hilarious. But you shouldn't want advanced Optics, your action should be reinforce, with no focus right?

Sadly, that makes these 34 points. And at the same cost as Init1 interceptors, I think the 2 die primary is gonna be lacking.

I'm still not convinced. The problem is the amount of damage you need to be taking for this to be worth it.

1. If you evaded, you would block 1 damage
2. To block 1 damage with reinforce, you have to take 2 un-cancelled damage
3. With agility 3, odds are you'll roll 1 evade on your unmodified dice, so you normally need to be taking 3 hits for reinforce to do anything.
4. To be 'up' on the deal versus evade, you need to be taking 3 hits on two attacks in the same turn.
5. Since you have no shield token, that's half your damage gone and you've only just broken even against the evade token and shield token!

Yes, everyone else in the squad not being shot at benefits from fanatical, but without deflectors, they'd probably all be benefiting from focus instead....

I think it's probably not bad for agility 1 ships which (for whatever reason) get a bonus action or some equivalent dice modification.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

yes

freaking hilarious. But you shouldn't want advanced Optics, your action should be reinforce, with no focus right?

Nope. In this build Angled exists merely to have Fanatical on from go. Preferred action is still Focus and Fanatical + Optics will be pretty consistent at generating hits. Like I said, the build is an edge case.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think it's probably not bad for agility 1 ships which (for whatever reason) get a bonus action or some equivalent dice modification.

Given the 6-point cost of Angled Deflectors on Redline, I'm not sure that I wouldn't rather take a Shield Upgrade, save 2 points, and get full mods on my attacks.

6 hours ago, Rossetti1828 said:

Given the 6-point cost of Angled Deflectors on Redline, I'm not sure that I wouldn't rather take a Shield Upgrade, save 2 points, and get full mods on my attacks.

Yea, Redline does better by attacking than focusing on defense. He should be nuking the faces off of foes, not sacrificing power trying to slightly lengthen his lifespan. 6 points is too much for that playstyle anyway.