A friend of mine and I were discussing the current status of AGoT LCG the other day. Lannister obviously came up, and we discussed how strong it is in the current environment. As our discussion went along we began wondering if kneel is actually Lannisters strongest trait. Draw is what fuels the engine of Lannister and any House deck for that matter. Less draw would mean fewer marshalled cards (lets that extra Lanni-gold go to waste, except for dominance) and kneel cards in hand (i.e. kneel events), which means less kneel-synergy.

Look at top decks in tourneys, most of them have strong draw. Lannister and Martell both have strong draw (Lannister is a bit stronger, in my opinion) and just about flooded the top 8 of the last OCTGN tournament (correct me if I'm wrong). Greyjoy, which many players I've spoken to consider to be the 3rd/4th strongest House (I think it's 3rd) has a LIV for a little draw engine. Bara has virtually no draw, which could be why they tend lose after 4th round: they're opponent is outdrawing them and their rush-effect is probably fizzling. Stark, considered the worst House (at least in the US), has no draw. As for Targ, I'm not very familiar with it, but it doesn't seem like Xaro's Home is an effective draw card. Maegi's Crone could/should be very good, but she is relatively new and hasn't seen much play yet. Targ is another House that hasn't been performing well, but at Black Friday Twn2dn make a Targ Shadows deck that came in second place (first place was Lanni). It's draw engine was King's Landing.

What would happen if every House had access to easy draw (i.e. Pyromancer's Cache) or no draw at all (i.e. no 3 additional cards)? Would the game be different if every House drew the same amount of cards each turn? Would Houses like Stark and Bara come out on top because Houses like Lannister and Martell need the extra draw to be competitive, or would the hierarchy of the Houses remain the same? What role does draw play versus gold, claim, initiative, and in-House-specialties (i.e. Lanni-kneel, GJ-unopposed, Stark-muirder, etc.)? Most people seem to agree that AGH was a good errata, but are we focused on the wrong thing? Should we be focused on the power of draw instead?

FATMOUSE said:

very interesting topic and thoughts. I don't think no draw for all houses would be the answer as then every game becomes very luck dependent. I think the answer is to spread out the way the houses draw. Like martell versus lanni right now (martell gets outdrawn, but if they want to they can out reveal and have the possibility of getting more cards on any given turn then lanni, though its less consistient turn to turn).

I like how Greyjoy draws, especially LIV. It slots nicely in with the rest of their house (no matter the build) is costed right and not over powered. They tried this with Stark (the location draw for winning defense) but missed. Greyjoy can almost make use of the 'easiest' neutral draw w/ bay of ice/ahead of the tide/in house 8 intitiative plot.

stark is getting perhaps the easiest draw engine and one based off of bara's (of all things) king renly, just much easier and simpler. I think they will be fine once the box comes out.

What I don't like is the block mechinic draw (samwell, king's landing, Sword in the Darkness) some houses don't get good synergy with those mechinics and are therefore left out in the cold. The other reason i don't like them is if the mechinic isn't strong (night's watch) or goes out of trend (summer) you'll never see them again.

Oh, and I also agree with your premise that a good way to 'close the gap' would be to extend draw to more houses close to the level of lanni.

Trag relies more on recurion than draw - which is an alternate form of card advantage and can be just as strong. Right now - they just don't have the bang for the buck (and its a lot of bucks) to rivla the top three Houses. That crone is good - but three cost is a deterrent for very situational draw. targ has to run ehr though - they have little choice.

You're absolutley right on Baratheon - since they have NO draw, they need a five to seven card flop and to hit whatever nominal draw effects they get ealry in order to win as quicjly as possible. Get past turn 4 and their percentage of wins plummets. Really an optimal Baratheon deck would be 3 x each of twnety cards to get thier win condition in place as soon as possible. Its jsut really ahrd to build like that in this game, given the nature of challenge pahse - unlike in say, MtG.

i agree with you - Lanni rules because of resources rather than tech- and they have way too much draw. These little nerfs here and there aren't really goign to change anything. I'd like to see more in House draw across the board.

Back in the ccg days i think one could say we had this period of easy draw for every house, that was when massing at twilight, watching the heavens, defenders of the north agenda and Samwell Tarly (song of twilight) made the cut in every deck. On the one hand the situation was unsatisfying because all decks had the same 7-8 cards , but on the other hand it made it easier to find the right cards to pull combos off in your deck. Aggressive decks and partly very quick games were also a result of the given avilability of draw for every house. Almost every player found this situation unsatisfying after a good while.

Personally i find the current situation also a little unsatisfying, because some builds have easy access to draw (and yeah most of theses deck builds have a tendency to end up with a Lanni house card) and other builds fail dramatically when you run out of hand cards. By the way i will probably never understand why Pyromancer´s Cache was banned, with the re-release of Alliance and the print of kings and queens for every house, it would have been an easy repeatable draw effect for every house. Longtime players may recall the out of house usage of seal of the lion.

Old Ben said:

Don't forget the other side effect that really started to show by the end, especially after 5KE came out. There was pretty much only one practical deck strategy for each House. You might have the same 7-8 cards enabling draw in each deck, but no matter what the rest of the cards in the deck were, they tended to do the same thing. I don't know that it was related to the easy draw, but since you pretty well knew you'd be pulling the pieces for the main strategy of the deck, each House seemed to normalize to its most efficient strategy. Other builds were possible, but there was little reason to build and play them, especially in competition.

Look at it this way: no matter which cards you choose for LCG Lannister (Shadows, non-Shadows, mix, etc.), you're pretty much working the "buy kneel/control effects" angle. Other build strategies may be possible, but why bother experimenting with them when this is so darn efficient?

Old Ben said:

To me, the biggest difference is that I never really needed to have a back-up plan built into my decks because I knew I could get the cards to make the principle strategy work. The level of "random draw" is much higher in the LCG than it was in the later days of the CCG. Planned combos are unreliable, so instead you have to fall back on cards that synergize. Essentially, you have to find a build that takes advantage of its own inconsistency, which can be very unsatisfying if you are used to a more consistent feel.

To me, blanket ubiquitous draw is likely to make things too consistent, ultimately eliminating most - if not all - of the "random draw" element of the game. That's what I think we saw in the late days of the CCG. Little to no draw at all would go the other way, making "random draw" the only element of the game. That's what I think we see when we try to play the Core Set right out of the box without any deck modification. Something in the middle is the way to go, I think. I don't think that "balanced" draw, neutral draw or "draw effect cycles" is the way to do that.

I like draw as a reward that you have to work for, and I think it adds to House flavor that each House has to do something different to get its reward. I like the current direction, even if it is still working itself out.

I think card draw is pretty well costed right now. The issue w/ universal card draw, depending on how it is implemented, is it creates other imbalances by 'fixing' an imbalance. If everyone had good draw (i.e. Massing), would:

1. The house w/ the most income win too much? (Lanni again!)

2. The house w/ the best weenies win too much? Do we need better weenie control then?

Those type of questions would then have to be posed IMHO.

BTW I think that old 1-cost location that allowed a draw if you had the highest iniative was decently priced...although at that time there was much more consistent location control. Which reminds me:

3. If everyone has more draw, shoudln't everyone have access to good location and character control? Then attachment control? Then counters to those (i.e. Narrow Escape)? Where is the line drawn? Personally, I liked the game better w/ PTTS and PTTT legal (w/ Paper Shield as the counter) but that is just me.

rings said:

QFT

I'd like to see some variation of GTM printed for each house. If every house had a way to ensure at least one additional draw a turn the random draw, reveal, recursion, search, etc. that they have becomes more supplemental. It still needs to be built in, is not so efficient as to unseat Lannister as "the draw house" but makes their decks work more consistently which could bring their win ratios up against Lannister. I'm not a huge fan of tearing Lannister down from the top wrong, a House has to be there, and Lannister is as good as any house in that slot, but the gap between Lannister and all the other decks is too huge and it comes because Draw is so strong, with the gold advantage to put the cards into play, with the kneeling mechanic which is so redundant that having less than three kneel effects going off in a turn after turn two is a rare occurrence in my games.

Something along the lines of locations that allowed you to draw a card depending on the phase you were in or some other game mechanic that was pretty dependable...

Stark - draw a card at the beginning of the challenges phase.
Greyjoy - kneel to draw a card when a challenge is unopposed.
Baratheon - draw a card at the beginning of the dominance phase.
Martell - kneel to draw a card when a player loses a challenge.
Targaryen - draw a card at the beginning of the marshalling phase.

rings said:

I actually think this is a big part of the problem. Much of Lanni's dominance, I think, has a lot to do with the fact that it's difficult to remove "problem" characters and locations. This contrasts somewhat with, say, Baratheon, which tends to field a lot of powerful characters that are more or less all threatening (perhaps even one-dimensional in some ways though), or Martell who would be able to protect against a bit of direct kill (and is therefore less vulnerable to it). If it were easier to pick off problem characters like gold-generating allies, Tommen, Castellan, etc., I think Lanni would have a tougher time. Based on spoilers and the fact that Stark tends to be good at killing Lanni's characters, I'm hoping the Stark box could make a difference in this regard.

I don't think neutral draw is the solution though. Lanni is going to have more gold, and it makes sense that it does. That will naturally give Lanni better access to neutral draw that is reliant on gold, such as King's Landing (though Lanni's myriad powerful shadows characters also helps a ton too). Draw based on influence would benefit Targ/Martell, based on winning challenges would inadvertently reward certain houses too...Price of War and Seductive Promise are better for some houses than others. The bottom line is that as mentioned above, "neutral draw" isn't "equal draw."

So the solution, I think, is in-house draw options. Cards like the new Blackfish that accent or highlight a house's particular strength are the best choice, I think, because they expand the options while promoting synergy. (I don't think these concepts are mutually exclusive.) In terms of whether some houses should have draw, reveal, or recursion, I really don't mind either way. Recursion tends to be weak early game (since there's nothing to recur or very few options), so it ironically has to be combined with early draw to make it potent enough to be a draw replacement. That's why Targ's recursion is inferior to Lanni's draw...can't get enough game-changing attachments in the discard pile early in the game or there's too many crappy cards (summer seas, etc.) for the opponent to choose over decent cards (to be a dragon) when I trigger Street Waif. (As far as I'm concerned, "reveal" is the same thing as draw, with the added cost that you spoil the card to your opponent and the added benefit that it isn't subject to the draw cap.)

Good post Twn2dn. I agree, we should be able to design in-house draw that works. Most houses have access to something pretty good and useful - LIV, the Targ recurrion chick, etc. Some of it is more situational, but that doesn't mean there isn't access to it. Bara is really the only house where it is very hard to fit in draw-type effects IMHO (well, Stark too - Blacky doesn't really help THAT much).

Generally I have to agree with the idea of in-house draw options that somehow fit into the style of play for that house. I also like the idea that different houses should have different flavors of draw, instead of just different triggers for it. For example Winterfell Kennels is good (good as in flavorful and thematic, not good as in extremely competitive right now) in having a distinctly Stark flavor (tutor, not draw). With the new agenda and some decent direwolves it might even see some play. LIV is another good one (possibly the best), as it both gives draw and supports supports the in-house keyword, while still being reasonable in it's power level.

Generally, I don't think the flavors have to only be different ways of getting cards, I think any kind of solution to card advantage that fits into the theme of the house would be good. So a negative card advantage theme would also be a fitting solution for a house, possibly combined with light extra draw (pretty much what GJ has with LIV , Marauders , Alannys, Harlaw -type cards).

But faceless, tasteless neutral draw is just... really boring.

I agree with Bara being pretty much the odd one out with any kinds of draw effects nowadays, at least Stark has some options (Storm Dancer, Kennels, To Be a Wolf) even though they're not that effective in practice. I guess the only mechanic Bara really has is Summer, if only there were some real reasons to run it... maybe the Asshai cards in the next chapter pack series will give something for that - vigilant for holy crest on the new spoiled card didn't sound all that bad combined with the new Mel...

So AFAIK the card advantage scheme sort of filters to this:

Stark: KLE Ned, THAT boat, To Be A Wolf, Blackfish, The handful of stalwart characters and hard to get rid of cards (cat, KLE arya).

Bara: Bara has the EPIC event that lets them draw 3 cards (I think this is a decent card btw, extra challenge + cards). And Renly. However they are the best house to play confession and have a few new cards that discard cards from the opponent's hand. In some ways I think further developing a negative card synergy may make things interesting. Also To Be A Stag provides some discard recursion. Shouldn't they have good nights watch synergy providing another vehicle for draw, and the whole king's landing synergy.

Targ: Lets see... a location that grabs opponent's dead characters. A location that kills cards in an opponent's hand. The lil guy that provides discard recursion, dany's chambers for attachment recursion, forever burning, good synergy with King's Landing, good synergy with Gold Cloaks (lots of mercenaries), good synergy with Summer (Gilly, Sam) and out of any house they can say "Its Summer DEAL with IT". Are you $#@!ing kidding ME. There HAS to be a Targ Summer build with Shadows thrown in for fun out there that just kicks all the other decks around. I think in terms of card advantage they have less draw than lanni and martel but a hell of a lot more lasting power. Its not like anyone bothers with location control.

Greyjoy: LIV, and Alanys who can really be annoying if she has support of harlaw on her. I run 3 of each. And 3 of Wex Pyke because that combo seems to at the very least annoy the hell out of everyone.

Martell/Lanni: Yeah yeah we already know card advantage is your thing.

I think its more of lanni just having really good draw and kneel. Something i thought of, I recall they made duplicates save from being returned to hand, why not also save them from being knelt?

Also maybe nate or this world's champion could make a plot that just stands your characters each phase or more amusingly: allows characters to attack or defend even if knelt. and make it like 5 7 1.

I must agree I like the direction they are going with draw, each house needs to do it differently and effectively. The only beef that I have, if you are going to give it to a house, make sure that the card is worth using.

Personally I like search, but I have a feeling we won't be getting much of that. And I would be very happy if they reprinted kingdom plots, especially bounty to the realm. I thought those were very well balanced.

I think with The Wall of enxt CP and new Catelyn LoW Stark can make a good Draw mechanic with storm dancer. Finally I will use that card :-)

Now I have to say that "I want to use Rorge" cause it is amazing... have to build new decks, but I want to do that after our italian National (6rh June) cause LoW will not legal ;-)

Whoah! Andrew! Long time no see!

kpmccoy21 said:

QFT x 2

This is a MUCH better game (IMO) with those cards legal & in the pool.

HOLYCRAP! LoB returns! Does this possibly mean a new Wisconsin meta?

Whoah! LoB and Wreckingball posted in the same day!

Hallelujah!

Kennon said:

Yeah i'm back, i'm trying to get a decent draw engine out of Greyjoy. It won't be as effecient as Lannister, but it might suffice. I miss everybody from the boards so much. So much has changed though, some good, some bad.

Great call on Bounty, Wrecking Ball. That Plot alone would solve probelms for several Houses.

LIV is great for GJ. That plus Sam and the birds seems to work - but i wonder if the mill thing could function as a mini draw engine. Fishmonger's Square lets you hit two cards - if you could get some mill going....maybe.

Stag Lord said:

I liked fishmonger's square when it first game out, but found it required waaaay too much setup to work. Once naval escorts came out I had my 1 gold non income location slots filled anyway.

Yeah setup is definitely a problem. I'm running a winter deck so I think the frostfangs and wharf rats might do a fair job of getting me at least two cards every turn. The only problem I have is that I feel like i'm wasting valuable space in my deck. I've never liked mill, I've never felt it could win me games, but we will see.

Along with LIV, I generally go with Bay of Ice in my Greyjoy deck as I tend to run high initiative plots for my rush anyway.

Milling currently requires way too much resource and card commitment. Mill was extremely good in CCG as the effects that came out of it were very strong (i.e. cancel events, stand characters, win unopposed challenges, etc.) The best card I've seen that benefits from milling is Fishmonger's Square, but then you have to make your deck a milling deck to benefit from it and the other cards that benefit from milling are either lame or too situational. The characters that gain power after winning a challenge where you discard X-type card are too weak. Blackwater Raiders can seldom steal you a good location. Yes, Lost Oasis, LDC, etc are cool locations, but they don't help in GJ. Yeah Lanni has some cool kneel locations you can steal, but I don't see GJ mill beating Lanni Shadows by any means. Balon is situational on your opponent having Shadow cards in his or her deck. Even then, now I have to kneel out Balon (the only GJ noble character) or save my influence instead of using it as a reducer. Kraken Tatoo is cool, but there is pretty much no way to mill opponent's cards pre-challenges. It's actually tough to mill cards in general during challenges unless you win a challenge with those terrible weenies I mentioned above, or kill off Desperate Looters (which means you probably just lost a military challenge....boo). Now you can mill your own cards with Drowned Priest God (or w/e his name is), but I'm suppose to mill your deck, not the other way around!

The benefits from milling are either too difficult to achieve, too situational, or just not worth the effort to pull it off. I miss the days of good milling and will probably continue to miss it for quite some time. I hope I'm wrong.