1 minute ago, Octarine-08 said:

The scum Falcon doesn't have barrel rolls or 1 hards. It certainly doesn't have white sloops.

Yes, but the Bumpmasters strength was being able to mod dice while getting bumped themselves and always having a shot while denying those for the opponent. Now, they cannot always get a shot, and they have no Operations Specialist, no K4 Security Droid, No Expertise, and cannot use Intimidation or the upcoming Snap Shot.

4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

The Jumpmaster is in the same position like Armor Lock from Halo Reach. It had an affect on the meta to the point that people just don't want to see it again or else they start suffering mental flashback breakdowns.

What's your problem with armor lock!?!? I loved that ability! Me and my buddy leapfrogging into an enemy squad alternating armor locks with the front as the back tore into the enemy group? Good times.

The config contraption is neat. Limited reduction for some decision making as when it is most advantageous.

I also think just adding a sensor slot for the scouts to take passive sensors and a torp may be good enough to at least try on the table again.

I would leave the dial and base chassis stats alone - I really don’t want to get in the habit of errata’d cards that actually do something other than what they say.

2.0 jumps, even with the white sloop back, would have way worse dials (red right turns!), way worse turret, worse version of intel agent, worse barrel rolls... and not really cheaper, either.

8 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I also think just adding a sensor slot for the scouts to take passive sensors and a torp may be good enough to at least try on the table again.

This. I have had alot of thinking toward the jm5k and have to say the best thing I could think of was a sensor slot and the title do the same thing as Moldy crow. This gives you lots of variants 1) Dengar + FCS + R3 2) Tel w/ collision detector + hull upgrade 3) Monaroo w/ advanced sensors and intimidation 4) Scout w/ passive sensors + proton torps.

At the right prices I think all ships will do a good job at what you want them to do. Dengar and Scout will pack a punch, Manaroo will be a good support with ships that are also r1 of her and the enemy, Tel will do what tel does, he won't be game breaking but his extra health is very good value at the right price.

23 minutes ago, Dr Moneypants said:

What's your problem with armor lock!?!? I loved that ability! Me and my buddy leapfrogging into an enemy squad alternating armor locks with the front as the back tore into the enemy group? Good times.

I didn't mind it, but as I said bringing that up in Halo forums gets the same reaction as Jumpmasters on the XWM subreddit.

4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I didn't mind it, but as I said bringing that up in Halo forums gets the same reaction as Jumpmasters on the XWM subreddit.

That sounds hilarious. I'll have to look it up.

Fluff wise, the entire reason the punishing one has a Droid slot is because Dengar modded his jumpy to have an R2 Droid operate the turret. So where is ol' Dengy's droid?

Something like, •R2-Whatever (I don't think it had a name): At the start of the engagement phase, you may rotate your turret arc to your front arc. Scum only.

It allows you to keep your arc pointed sideways but you don't have to give up a stress if you want to shoot something in front of you to utilize your title. Small niche use on other chassis as well.

3 hours ago, Marinealver said:

The Jumpmaster is in the same position like Armor Lock from Halo Reach. It had an affect on the meta to the point that people just don't want to see it again or else they start suffering mental flashback breakdowns.

Yeah this, I never want to see another jumpmaster again. You could drop the cost slightly if they want, but otherwise no need to bring back the "everyone is flying jumpmaster world champion meta"

2 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

Fluff wise, the entire reason the punishing one has a Droid slot is because Dengar modded his jumpy to have an R2 Droid operate the turret. So where is ol' Dengy's droid?

R5-P8, and he’s in the game already

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is way too good. Even non-recurring charges would be really good. You're basically asking for an R4-P (republic astromech), but better because it reduces difficulty instead of allowing an action while stressed... plus it regenerates if you fully execute a maneuver. A "fair" price on this would be so high that it's not viable anyway.

Just ask for a Scum variant of R4-P. Or, ask for an astromech that acts as an agile gunner on a charge system.

9 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

R5-P8, and he’s in the game already

Not actually Dengar's droid.

R5-P8 on wookiepedia

4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Agree with @PaulRuddSays that this is just far too powerful, and would have to be priced into oblivion. It's a far better R4-P plus Expert Handling, plus stress-free linked rotates.

While I wish R4-P was the all-faction version, and R4 was the Republic-only version, this card is just a major yikes.

//

Hrm. If I'm tossing my hat into the ring, something interesting would be essentially Heavy Weapons Turret from the TIE/sf. Treat the [Front] arc of your Torpedoes as [turret] arc. Jumpmaster might still be bad. Maybe it'd be a major problem. But a Lock linked into a red Rotate has a *REAL* reason to exist, and a ship which can Torpedo in any direction certainly has a niche. Figure the points out after that.

But count me *STRONGLY* against Passive Sensors. I don't want Deadeye 2.0 on Jumpmasters. The dial and single-arc of Jumps still makes them worse than their 1e versions, but just f'ing no. Particularly not if they had a Heavy Weapons Turret equivalent, since the Lock could be used to rotate, and it'd essentially be Luke-Gunner.

//

If I'm going to errata Punishing One, I'd have just made it +1 red die on the primary weapon, but at a higher price. It'd still be costly in game to use the red linked rotate, but it'd have a different feel from other turret ships.

//

Also, the ship should have had a built-in droid slot without the title. One of the "good" things about Jumpmasters was their major "toolbox" status. They could take so many kinds of upgrades that they could figure out interesting roles within a list. The context of 2e is different, in that there aren't the K4 Security Droids and Overclocked R4s and R4 Agromechs and so forth anymore. Upgrades are generally modest-enough that allowing the Jump to have a decent suite of options probably doesn't cause problems.

1 hour ago, PaulRuddSays said:

This is way too good. Even non-recurring charges would be really good. You're basically asking for an R4-P (republic astromech), but better because it reduces difficulty instead of allowing an action while stressed... plus it regenerates if you fully execute a maneuver. A "fair" price on this would be so high that it's not viable anyway. 

Just ask for a Scum variant of R4-P. Or, ask for an astromech that acts as an agile gunner on a charge system.

34 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Agree with @PaulRuddSays that this is just far too powerful, and would have to be priced into oblivion. It's a far better R4-P plus Expert Handling, plus stress-free linked rotates.

While I wish R4-P was the all-faction version, and R4 was the Republic-only version, this card is just a major yikes.

Agreed on both counts that it’s extremely strong. This was a counter proposition to the idea that the dial just has to be “fixed” in order for the jump ever to see play. While it may or may not be stronger, it’s definitely more interesting.

The idea still holds: you could make it only apply to white maneuvers or only to red actions, and still recharge (maybe only one charge) after a fully completed red maneuver, or not recharge at all. The extent of the solution depends on the depth of the problem, which is very much still up for debate.

I’d mainly prefer to leave the dial alone and give it more offensive beef (though I doubt torps are the answer). I don’t think it’s in as much trouble as some do.

9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

But count me *STRONGLY* against Passive Sensors. I don't want Deadeye 2.0 on Jumpmasters. The dial and single-arc of Jumps still makes them worse than their 1e versions, but just f'ing no. Particularly not if they had a Heavy Weapons Turret equivalent, since the Lock could be used to rotate, and it'd essentially be Luke-Gunner.

Yeah, a sensor slot seems very dangerous route to go. Beyond getting essentially Deadeye Torpboats back, imagine instead of Passive Sensors, an Adv Sensors barrel roll from one of these with stress that gets cleared with a blue maneuver. Or Adv Sensors any other action while clogging the lane, preventing any other ships from getting actions. Bumpmasters would be back in a strong way which I don't think people want to see again.

8 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This was a counter proposition to the idea that the dial just has to be “fixed” in order for the jump ever to see play.

But, that is a massive fix to the dial. It's not a *permanent* fix, but the effect of giving the Jump a solid dial is still there.

8 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

(maybe only one charge) ... or not recharge at all

Certainly. Two charges with conditional recharges would be a step too far, I think. No recharges on 2, or a recharge on 1. I kind of like working on only actions (for whatever reason, I'd rather remove a stress after performing an action, than reducing difficulty), but recharging after a red maneuver.

One issue the Jump has it that it's got some really great red actions. However, the weak blues mean that it can't really use them too often. Getting rid of the stress from an action once, where if you want to do it a second time you'll need to take a red move (and thus gain stress that you can't avoid) seems like an interesting balance.

16 hours ago, svelok said:

Give it a slot for Passive Sensors...?

The thing is supposed to be a scout and exploration ship, so a systems slot is not totally out there.

@theBitterFig's comments about red actions - specifically barrel roll - might also be relevant in conjunction with advanced sensors, and Fire Control is pretty much a persistent lock with 2-dice attacks.

Question from someone who has never really played scum:

Is the current JM5K really bad in 2.0, or is it just weaker than its over powered 1.0 counterpart?

I'm looking at Dengar with his title being 66 points. That's a I6, 3 dice, revenge attacking, Front Arc* large base ship with 9 total hit points. It really doesn't seem that bad.

46 minutes ago, BDrafty said:

Question from someone who has never really played scum:

Is the current JM5K really bad in 2.0, or is it just weaker than its over powered 1.0 counterpart?

I'm looking at Dengar with his title being 66 points. That's a I6, 3 dice, revenge attacking, Front Arc* large base ship with 9 total hit points. It really doesn't seem that bad.

IMHO, as a pure Scum player yes, it’s terrible. I’ve played with it about 6 times and the over correcting combo of a terribly predictable dial and worse linked actions makes it not worth flying. I’m guessing those saying it’s fine have never flown it and probably claiming PTSD from 1st Edition. It’s very easy to ignore Dengar and this chassis is pretty much worthless unless you’re willing to invest a hefty amount of points into him/her and even then I would take a Shadowcaster in it’s place.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

One issue the Jump has it that it's got some really great red actions. However, the weak blues mean that it can't really use them too often.

That is an excellent way to put it.

55 minutes ago, BDrafty said:

Question from someone who has never really played scum:

Is the current JM5K really bad in 2.0, or is it just weaker than its over powered 1.0 counterpart?

I'm looking at Dengar with his title being 66 points. That's a I6, 3 dice, revenge attacking, Front Arc* large base ship with 9 total hit points. It really doesn't seem that bad.

It's best to compare it to other large bases similar to it. Resistance Han has another 3 die arc, a better dial, and two more hull for only 10 points more. Considering Dengar need to pay 8 points for one extra die, Han getting a whole extra three die arc is a steal at 10 points. Han also has a plethora of mods slot to augment any weaknesses. Dengar's has the double tap over Han, but since only one shot will be modded, it's not super great.

Maul is a better comparison (even at I5) as both ships have large base barrel roll and Maul can double tap like Dengar. Maul has an extra shield, a better dial, and the force all for 1 point cheaper than Dengar with title. Similar to Han, Maul has a plenty of mod slots to augment weaknesses. Despite Maul's single defense die, he will probably end up in about the same spot if he takes Hate.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Dengar's has the double tap over Han, but since only one shot will be modded, it's not super great.

If I'm using the title, I can just never fly him without R3 and Protorps. Massive points sink but it improves the action economy and offense quite a bit. Plasma would be better as it would keep him cheaper.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Maul is a better comparison (even at I5) as both ships have large base barrel roll and Maul can double tap like Dengar. Maul has an extra shield, a better dial, and the force all for 1 point cheaper than Dengar with title. Similar to Han, Maul has a plenty of mod slots to augment weaknesses. Despite Maul's single defense die, he will probably end up in about the same spot if he takes Hate.

Exactly this. He gets to shoot twice probably more often than Dengar (he's not good at making things face him), he has constant passive mods (Dookrew and hate are an amazing combo) and most of all, he can end up in tons of places that a large-based ship has no business being in, even without the title. The P1 has some tricky moves up its sleeve, especially that blue 3-bank, but it's still relatively easy to guess where he will be. Dengar does have the upper hand in that he can take Expert Handling for some stress-free reposition (Maul and Dooku are stuck with force talents) but compared with Hate that's paltry gains.

I feel like it's getting charged extra for being a turret ship even though a) it only has one arc anyway so not actualy extra coverage, and b) rotating the turret away from front arc is almost always a bad idea as it stresses you which makes you very predictable and then you have to do the same thing again to use Dengar's ability or the P1 title. Generally an awful choice unless you're about to die anyway.

One list I may try out is:

Fenn Rau with Fearless; Han with Trickshot; Dengar with title and R2 Astromech. 3pt bid.

It's probably still weak, but that gets me an entire list at Init 6.

Dengar still looks like being the weakest link (apart from my flying, that is).

3 hours ago, BDrafty said:

Question from someone who has never really played scum:

Is the current JM5K really bad in 2.0, or is it just weaker than its over powered 1.0 counterpart?

I'm looking at Dengar with his title being 66 points. That's a I6, 3 dice, revenge attacking, Front Arc* large base ship with 9 total hit points. It really doesn't seem that bad.

I think I haven't flown it yet in second edition, while I regularly flew it in first (after all the nerfs, typically Manaroo in a mixed list). The current incarnation doesn't inspire me at all, when I start a list with it I end up with a list without it.

I'd always take Ketsu over Dengar even with higher cost and lower ini. I'd always take an escape craft or HWK over Manaroo as a support ship. As I think about it, maybe I'd try it more if it were medium base, but that ship has sailed.

58 minutes ago, flooze said:

I'd always take Ketsu over Dengar even with higher cost and lower ini. I'd always take an escape craft or HWK over Manaroo as a support ship. As I think about it, maybe I'd try it more if it were medium base, but that ship has sailed. 

Yeah, the problem seem to root in that some other scum ship can do what the JM5K can do better. High initiative beef cake bruiser = Boba. Tricksy disappearing trick = Moralo Eval. Support ship = HWK or Escape Craft. Low initiative blocker = 4-Lom or some TIEs.

The other point you make about it being medium I'm going to try out. I think the dial would be much more forgiving on a medium base.