Acording to the Blast Quality for weapons on pg 168 of the EotE rule book, it states that each character (friend or foe) engaged with the original target suffers damage equal to the weapons Blast rating (plus normal additions of damage per hit as usual).

It also goes on to say (or repeat itself, I cant figure on which), if it fails to activate you can still trigger it with Advantages.

The Engaged range states that its the range where you are in close combat or when you want to use an item. Basically touching or touching distances.

Short range is when there are several meters between targets.

Situation: an explosion with the Blast quality goes off targeting a squad spread out over a distance of Short range. Some are closer to others than most.

Now toss in players who's characters are grouped together performing close proximity actions but not engaged, or so they argue. A Blast happens in their area, and now I need to determine who is hit and who is missed by the blast. I ended up having every character roll 1d6 with a 4-6 missing. And what do you know every one including the original target roled a 4+. So I still hit them but gave a cover bonus to quiet the arguements.

So my questions are as follows, and I know that these are abstract rules in many regards.:

First: Lets talk range. The way Engaged reads is a Blast effect will only hurt targets if they are holding hands or close enough to, and Short range is several meters appart. Now I have yet to find any rules on coherency of individuals, so I figure its up to the GM to figure how far apart normal people stand from each other. So the problem I guess is for a Blast quality what is the Area of Effect (AoE). I mean in the real world a Fragmentation Grenade can hit targets at least in a 20ft radius, with shrapnel if not just blast. And a warhead with Blast could explode with effect out to extreme range. Now I will look to the weapon discription for AoE if stated, but for most weapons it just says Blast and a number. I guess I am looking for clarification between Engaged and Short regarding Blast Qualities.

Second: lets talk Activation. I was under the impression that weapon qualities are activated by spending enough Advanteges or Triumphs to activate the effect. However the Blast quality says you can activate a Blast effect even if it misses by spending Advantages or Triumphs. I take this to mean that even a miss doesnt stop a Blast from going off and possibly effecting the target. Also it will go off short of spending Threats or Dispairs to cancel the effect.

But if the attack misses then there is no target to center on, its possible for the blast to go off even dozens of meters away.

But the rule doesnt say that. It says the original target is still hit along with all those in Engaged range.

This whole statement seems to both contridict itself as well as say that a blast will never miss provided you have Advantages or Triumphs or maybe even Destiny Points to spend.

I need clarification on if a miss is a miss or ignored regarding Blast Qualities.

The issues I see are AoE weapons and not just Blast effects, and who is effected. There are gas bombs and flame throwers, and even things like mine fields which have strings of blast effects happening. All talk about single target or those Engaged with the target being effective. But is actual Engaged range holding hands or is it out to Short range which states it starts several meters away. Its a gray area but still needs clarification.

Any help on this would be great.

Hmm... when it comes to activation, here's my take on it: (using a grenade as example)

Scenario 1: You attack, and you hit. You have enough advantages to activate, everyone in engaged distance gets damage. (Grenade actually hits the target, who goes "ow" before it explodes)
Scenario 2: You attack, and you hit, but don't have enough advantages to activate, only the target takes damage. (Grenade actually hits target, who goes "ow" before it explodes, but everyone else is sheltered from the blast by his body)
Scenario 3: You attack, miss, but have enough advantages to activate. It misses but explodes close enough to catch the target in the blast radius. (Grenade lands next to target, who goes "uh-oh" before it explodes)
Scenario 4: You attack, miss, but don't have enough advantages to activate. It misses and explodes far enough away for the target to be outside the blast radius. (Grenade flies past the target, who goes "phew, that was close!" before harmlessly exploding several meters away)

EDIT for clarification:

So, in Scenario 1, you automatically do damage to the target and anyone in engaged distance from him. (Target: impact damage + blast damage. Others: Blast damage only.)
In Scenario 2, you only do damage to the target, and everyone else gets off without damage. (Target: Impact damage only. Others: No damage)
In Scenario 3, you still do damage to the target and everyone else, but only blast damage (Target: Blast damage only, Others: Blast damage only)
In Scenario 4, nobody takes damage. (No damage)

So, if you're firing a missile at a target, they get 30+ damage in Scenario 1, 20+ damage in Scenario 2, 10+ damage in scenario 3, and no damage in scenario 4.
But whoever's standing next to him only gets 10+ damage in Scenario 1 and 3, and nothing at all in Scenario 2 and 4.

As for ranges, anything less than short is engaged (whether the players want it to or not).
My personal rule for Engaged vs Short is armslength + a gaffi stick... because I know that I sure as heck can reach further than armslength if I'm equipped with a spear.

1 hour ago, OddballE8 said:

Hmm... when it comes to activation, here's my take on it: (using a grenade as example)

Scenario 1: You attack, and you hit. You have enough advantages to activate, everyone in engaged distance gets damage. (Grenade actually hits the target, who goes "ow" before it explodes)
Scenario 2: You attack, and you hit, but don't have enough advantages to activate, only the target takes damage. (Grenade actually hits target, who goes "ow" before it explodes, but everyone else is sheltered from the blast by his body)
Scenario 3: You attack, miss, but have enough advantages to activate. It misses but explodes close enough to catch the target in the blast radius. (Grenade lands next to target, who goes "uh-oh" before it explodes)
Scenario 4: You attack, miss, but don't have enough advantages to activate. It misses and explodes far enough away for the target to be outside the blast radius. (Grenade flies past the target, who goes "phew, that was close!" before harmlessly exploding several meters away)

EDIT for clarification:

So, in Scenario 1, you automatically do damage to the target and anyone in engaged distance from him. (Target: impact damage + blast damage. Others: Blast damage only.)
In Scenario 2, you only do damage to the target, and everyone else gets off without damage. (Target: Impact damage only. Others: No damage)
In Scenario 3, you still do damage to the target and everyone else, but only blast damage (Target: Blast damage only, Others: Blast damage only)
In Scenario 4, nobody takes damage. (No damage)

So, if you're firing a missile at a target, they get 30+ damage in Scenario 1, 20+ damage in Scenario 2, 10+ damage in scenario 3, and no damage in scenario 4.
But whoever's standing next to him only gets 10+ damage in Scenario 1 and 3, and nothing at all in Scenario 2 and 4.

As for ranges, anything less than short is engaged (whether the players want it to or not).
My personal rule for Engaged vs Short is armslength + a gaffi stick... because I know that I sure as heck can reach further than armslength if I'm equipped with a spear.

Almost, but note that if the original target is hit with the attack, it does not take Blast damage. OTOH, if the attack misses the original target but Blast activates, then the original target does take Blast damage. Essentially, no single target gets hit twice by a Blast weapon; it's either the base Damage or the Blast damage.

2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Almost, but note that if the original target is hit with the attack, it does not take Blast damage. OTOH, if the attack misses the original target but Blast activates, then the original target does take Blast damage. Essentially, no single target gets hit twice by a Blast weapon; it's either the base Damage or the Blast damage.

You can hit with both base and blast.

7 hours ago, R0bperry said:

The Engaged range states that its the range where you are in close combat or when you want to use an item. Basically touching or touching distances.

Advanced rules get into more detail about this, making Engaged a larger space than expected. It's still pretty small, say 20ish feet at most, but a Squad of a dozen stormtroopers that are all Engaged are not having a group hug.

Yeah, kinda weird but remember it's a movie simulator, not a real universe simulator. So it's less a question of how many meters apart you are, and more a question of who the director thinks can be affected by the explosion.

44 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You can hit with both base and blast.

Maybe I'm missing something, but where does it say you can hit the original target with both the weapon damage and the Blast damage at the same time?

The Core books state: "If the attack is successful and Blast activates, each character (friend or foe) Engaged with the original target suffers wounds equal to the weapon’s Blast rating (plus an additional wound per Success as usual).". To me, that reads as "the original target doesn't take the damage from the Blast quality if the attack is successful".

It's a different story with triggering Blast on a failed attack (of course the original target gets hit with the Blast damage in that case), but I really don't see any indication for what you're saying.

50 minutes ago, EpicTed said:

Maybe I'm missing something, but where does it say you can hit the original target with both the weapon damage and the Blast damage at the same time?

The Core books state: "If the attack is successful and Blast activates, each character (friend or foe) Engaged with the original target suffers wounds equal to the weapon’s Blast rating (plus an additional wound per Success as usual).". To me, that reads as "the original target doesn't take the damage from the Blast quality if the attack is successful".

It's a different story with triggering Blast on a failed attack (of course the original target gets hit with the Blast damage in that case), but I really don't see any indication for what you're saying.

If they can be hit with the blast on a miss why not on a hit? And I am pretty sure you are with in engaged range of your self.

20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

If they can be hit with the blast on a miss why not on a hit? And I am pretty sure you are with in engaged range of your self.

Base damage is still the explosion, it larger because it's centered on you rather than only near you, you are the center of the kill zone. You take damage from the explosion once rather than twice.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

If they can be hit with the blast on a miss why not on a hit? And I am pretty sure you are with in engaged range of your self.

If you look closely, you'll note that the text fir the miss specifically includes the original target while the text for the hit is only for other targets.

Sounds like we should ask customer service

This is discussed about once per year 😉

And the rules are clear, that you cannot hit the original target twice.

No need to bother customer service here.

Thanks for the discussion on this topic. My original question was regarding AoE of Blast Quality weapons and those that are affected if only those in Engaded range can be.

The first responce clarified this by saying its what you can touch with a hand held item, say like a Gaffi Stick.

So if I had a whip or 3 meter pole I could still touch something beyond hand holding range. Which puts Engaged range out to anything within say a 3m radious. Which happens to be about where it says Short range begins.

The other part about the target getting hit with the blast even with a miss I would think matters where the final blast radius is centered. Inless the target is waring a suicide vest I would first figure where the blast is centered then who might be in engaged range. Then apply any posdiable cover and maybe even allow a dodge to a lesser extent.

As for this other discussion of the target not being effected by a blast quality, I ask you this question. Does a grenade explode like a donut. You know, with a hole in the middle? No. So everything within a blast radious will be hit. If you want to add aditional damage due to the target also being hit by a rock (aka grenade body) fine. Thats about 4 damage plus any additional damage from the blast.

Thanks again for the discussion.

And on the grenades that is simulated by the base damage being higher than the blast damage.

The primary target taking the listed damage is the grenade going off and affecting them. Blast is just the chance for others to be affected as well, or in the case of a miss, to catch your primary target at the edges of the explosion. That's why the primary target isn't affected by blast on a hit, because they've already been hit and taken the listed damage of the weapon. There's no donut effect, it's a matter of getting hit as the primary target and taking the full force, or being caught in the blast radius (engaged or a miss) and taking a reduced amount.

Also, don't overthink the ranges... The reason for the Narrative (Range) System is to make it easier, no need for measure it like a wargame. So put away the ruler and laserpointer.

You are in the given range if it narratively makes sense. Also the CRB itself states to increase the Blast radius in confined or closed spaces (AKA when it makes sense)

On 6/9/2019 at 9:03 AM, R0bperry said:

I need clarification on if a miss is a miss or ignored regarding Blast Qualities.

With Blast weapons, sometimes close is close enough. Ie you still hit with a miss. Guided weapons work along similar lines.

On 6/9/2019 at 1:12 PM, HappyDaze said:

Almost, but note that if the original target is hit with the attack, it does not take Blast damage. OTOH, if the attack misses the original target but Blast activates, then the original target does take Blast damage. Essentially, no single target gets hit twice by a Blast weapon; it's either the base Damage or the Blast damage.

Ah, thanks for that clarification

On 6/11/2019 at 9:12 AM, R0bperry said:

As for this other discussion of the target not being effected by a blast quality, I ask you this question. Does a grenade explode like a donut. You know, with a hole in the middle? No. So everything within a blast radious will be hit. If you want to add aditional damage due to the target also being hit by a rock (aka grenade body) fine. Thats about 4 damage plus any additional damage from the blast.

Thanks again for the discussion.

The grenade actually does 8 damage on a hit , but only has 6 damage in blast... so if your argument is that the damage caused by a direct hit by the grenade is impact damage, and not explosion damage, you're throwing that grenade pretty damned hard... (it does twice the damage that a slugthrower pistol does, after all)

So no, the damage incurred by rolling a hit with the grenade is not impact damage, it's explosive damage.
Blast is for anyone else nearby.
My mistake was to add the blast damage to the initial target on top of the initial explosion damage (ie. base damage).

This has made explosive weapons very very dangerous in my games

2 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

My mistake was to add the blast damage to the initial target on top of the initial explosion damage (ie. base damage).

This has made explosive weapons very very dangerous in my games

Well, that's a bit of whoopsie, but a fairly neutral one. I imagine grenades have been quite popular!

Just out of curiosity, did you add up the damage as a single hit or treat it as two separate hits (allowing targets to subtract soak twice)?

On 6/11/2019 at 1:12 AM, R0bperry said:

As for this other discussion of the target not being effected by a blast quality, I ask you this question. Does a grenade explode like a donut. You know, with a hole in the middle? No. So everything within a blast radious will be hit. If you want to add aditional damage due to the target also being hit by a rock (aka grenade body) fine. Thats about 4 damage plus any additional damage from the blast.

This is a game, and the Blast Quality is meant to provide rules to simulate a weapon that might be able to injure more than just the primary target.

The "base damage" of a grenade is from the "explosion", not it physically striking the target. It represents the attacker getting the grenade very close to the primary target, and having it detonate.

The Blast Quality, simulates the possibility of that "explosion" actually injuring other people close to the primary target.

To emphasize my point once more: The primary target is being hit by the "explosion". Secondary targets may also be hit by the "explosion", but to a lesser extent (simulated by the Blast Quality).

On 6/9/2019 at 12:03 AM, R0bperry said:

Now toss in players who's characters are grouped together performing close proximity actions but not engaged, or so they argue.

Of course they do, players will always quibble for the short term gain If they've worked together, applied a stimpack to each other, done an Assist maneuver, or anything else that did not require a maneuver to be spent getting close enough, then they're Engaged. The flip side is if they're not Engaged, if they want to do something to interact with their friends they have to spend a Maneuver. If their friend is on fire because they were hit by a grenade, they can't just reach out and assist them rolling around to put the fire out...and if it's difficult terrain between them...

On 6/15/2019 at 1:00 PM, penpenpen said:

Well, that's a bit of whoopsie, but a fairly neutral one. I imagine grenades have been quite popular!

Just out of curiosity, did you add up the damage as a single hit or treat it as two separate hits (allowing targets to subtract soak twice)?

Just one hit.

That said, I also treated explosives as highly illegal, so the players didn't use them much... except on completely lawless planets.